1098 réponses à ce sujet

[NS Wizdum]

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 01 août 2012 - 01:52 .

[BerzerkGene]

incinerator950 wrote...

No, we need better weapons to make.  Not a Radditz menu sized Reaper Thermal-Rail Cannon that is outranged by the Reapers, and outpowered.  The NormandyvsCollector Cruiser isn't viable, because shooting a near-stationary target at long ranges isn't exactly a problem when you have plot armor, and a ship whose Hull was breached by a handful of Gardian lasers. 

Collector Particle Research and an improvement to Anti-Matter weaponry and Warp-Explosives would be a tremendous help, but they were lost to plot writing.  You are not going to pull a Conventional victory from this plot people.  A rewrite of All three MEs is required, and that's sketchy at best. 

Its only supposedly out ranged by the reapers, but the Reapers are meant to outrange EVERYTHING, yet they do not. Also, 'near stationary'. The Reapers aren't fond of moving a whole lot. They can't dodge either, they're too big.

Hmm, kinda, yeah. Well personally you'd have to add in a crap ton of foreshadowing and explain why the Catalyst cannot do Sovereign's job. No one ever gives a proper explanation of that. It only helps explain the absurd stupidity displayed by the reapers. Harbinger was meant to be the leader, Harbinger is a freaking genius comapred to starkid.
I don't feel an entire rewrite on the trilogy is needed, just the last one, and not even a total rewrite either. Just lose the MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina.

[krasnoarmeets]

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.

Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<

Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?

Work for free, automitize your production facilities. Get the geth to run the entire infastructure of your war.
Its not as impossible as you people seem to think. You cannot eat money, you cannot shoot money. People in ME3 are specifically stated to do things for free because of the whole extinction thing. Example-Smuggler in purgatory.

Now you missing the part about the reaper destroying resources and factory faciloties.

The Russians during WWII shifted their entire production facilities to beyond the Urals where the Germans couldn't get at them. They moved all the equipment they could very quickly. All they would have to do is move the facilities somewhere else such as into a heavily defended and well-controlled system or preferably to a secret location. Given the fact that Alliance forces etc were able to build the Crucible in secret it is feasible. Geth controlled space on the far rim / behind the Perseus veil might not be a bad place to start. I find your defeatist attitude quite disappointing.

The fact that you comparing a ground war to a space war puts a flaw to your point. It's not easy moving things or people  from planet to planet

That's where you are just plain wrong. It doesn't create a flaw at all. In fact it makes it easier to set it up as there's a lot more places to hide the facilities and there are plenty of freighters available for the job. The same effort was put in for building the Crucible. What makes it so different? Nothing. You're moving manufacturing equipment, possibly adapting existing structures/creating makeshift ones, moving people and resources in exaclty the same way as you have to for the Crucible. So what's the big frickin' difference? There is none! The Geth could help as they are outstandingly adaptive and you don't have to feed them. You're being extremely narrow minded. It's just as well you weren't in charge of the Soviet war effort as history would have turned out very differently with someone as negative as you in charge... saying it's not the same is not an argument. It is easy moving things from planet to planet in the Mass Effect universe. There's a war asset which is a bunch of freighters from the Terminus systems that you could use for exactly this purpose. How do you think they would have built the Crucible?!

No it does not. the only way out of a system is viamass relay. the reaper just have to watch that. Added, reapers can track organics, the more orgainic together the easier it is for them to trake them. It not easy to get people out a reaper controled system. With no reaper controled systems, it more of a case of how long the allied forces holding it holds.

So how did they manage to do the same with the Crucible then, genius? War is a time of spectacular technological advancement. We're talking advancement that far outstrips the advances made in preceding decades by comparison and it is because of the sheer necessity of it. The need to gain an edge. The French rolled over and gave up whereas the Russians did not. Attitude and leadership is very important.  You keep conveniently ignoring the example of the Crucible production. Why is that?

[incinerator950]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

@BezerkGene
@dreman999

You two should get together for cofee sometime and have an intellectual discussion together because you have a lot in common.

Making me want to facepalm is one of them.

[incinerator950]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.

Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<

Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?

Work for free, automitize your production facilities. Get the geth to run the entire infastructure of your war.
Its not as impossible as you people seem to think. You cannot eat money, you cannot shoot money. People in ME3 are specifically stated to do things for free because of the whole extinction thing. Example-Smuggler in purgatory.

Now you missing the part about the reaper destroying resources and factory faciloties.

The Russians during WWII shifted their entire production facilities to beyond the Urals where the Germans couldn't get at them. They moved all the equipment they could very quickly. All they would have to do is move the facilities somewhere else such as into a heavily defended and well-controlled system or preferably to a secret location. Given the fact that Alliance forces etc were able to build the Crucible in secret it is feasible. Geth controlled space on the far rim / behind the Perseus veil might not be a bad place to start. I find your defeatist attitude quite disappointing.

The fact that you comparing a ground war to a space war puts a flaw to your point. It's not easy moving things or people  from planet to planet

That's where you are just plain wrong. It doesn't create a flaw at all. In fact it makes it easier to set it up as there's a lot more places to hide the facilities and there are plenty of freighters available for the job. The same effort was put in for building the Crucible. What makes it so different? Nothing. You're moving manufacturing equipment, possibly adapting existing structures/creating makeshift ones, moving people and resources in exaclty the same way as you have to for the Crucible. So what's the big frickin' difference? There is none! The Geth could help as they are outstandingly adaptive and you don't have to feed them. You're being extremely narrow minded. It's just as well you weren't in charge of the Soviet war effort as history would have turned out very differently with someone as negative as you in charge... saying it's not the same is not an argument. It is easy moving things from planet to planet in the Mass Effect universe. There's a war asset which is a bunch of freighters from the Terminus systems that you could use for exactly this purpose. How do you think they would have built the Crucible?!

No it does not. the only way out of a system is viamass relay. the reaper just have to watch that. Added, reapers can track organics, the more orgainic together the easier it is for them to trake them. It not easy to get people out a reaper controled system. With no reaper controled systems, it more of a case of how long the allied forces holding it holds.

So how did they manage to do the same with the Crucible then, genius? War is a time of spectacular technological advancement. We're talking advancement that far outstrips the advances made in preceding decades by comparison and it is because of the sheer necessity of it. The need to gain an edge. The French rolled over and gave up whereas the Russians did not. Attitude and leadership is very important.  You keep conveniently ignoring the example of the Crucible production. Why is that?

The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet.  

[dreman9999]

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

I understand you point but people are not going to stop eating so they can make weapons.

[BerzerkGene]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

I don't regard destroyers as a credible threat, so to me they're all dreaddies. Even if they have ten times that number, if its 140 of 295, its still vastly underwhelming. oculi are junk, i regard those even less of a threat.

I'm counting any ship. The Quarian flotilla on its own is 50k ships. The Geth probably have a similar number, being able to match them and all. Considering the Quarians arm the entire fleet, including the civilian ships, yes i count those.

Well we know dreadnough numbers, approximately, the geth and quarians boost the number considerably.
I'm making no comparisons to current military numbers. The numbers i get from are in the game. Some things have to be implied when you get things like "Cruiser-weight starships are the standard combat unit encountered away from large naval bases, the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets" This basically means that these would be the most common, but dreadnoughts are so rare they're actually numbered.
Comparing numbers in cutscenes is a bad idea, i mean it makes it seem like theres only a few dozen reapers around earth when its meant to be the bulk of the fleet. Plus theres the whole half of your space assets never showing up. Its why i find that scene cool but totally lacking. The galactic fleet as it ftls in is much more than 127 though.

"I don't count Destroyers or Oculi as credible threats, but all 40k of those Quarian civillian ships ARE LIKE ****ING DEADNOUGHTS YEAH BABY THEY CAN WHUP ANYTHING'S ASS WOOO!"

Are you ****ing serious? You'll just discount a MASSIVE amount of the enemy's fleet and overcount a MASSIVE amount of your fleet?

Fine. Going by that logic, IF the Reapers had only one ship, and you had eleventy gajillion, then conventional victory is totes possible.

For starters, the civilian ships aren't numbered in 40k... Its divided between civvies, the heavy fleet, the patrol fleet and research vessels.
Destroyers have a massive weakness, oculi can be taken down with one shot. the Dreadnoughts are the real threat to the shace ships.
I'm not overcounting the Quarians, they do not make up he bulk of your avaliable fleet, the geth and quarians together, however, do.

That is a horrible comparison. You're worse than a religious nutter.

[NS Wizdum]

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

I understand you point but people are not going to stop eating so they can make weapons.

What does that have to do with anything?

[ABCoLD]

incinerator950 wrote...
The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet. 

Also, the best time to invade Russia is in the dead of winter.  Just sayin.  History has proven.

[dreman9999]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Han Shot First wrote..

Armies and fleets can't be supported by an economic system based on primitive bartering. And they can't be fielded on charity.

Please explain how the civilizations of the galaxy could continue to wage an effective war against the Reapers after the total collapse of the galactic economy.

Just do their jobs without getting paid.
Wow that was hard to think of.<_<

Right. Will the engines run without fuel? Will spare parts magically appear on the ships? Can soldiers survive without food because they're really trying hard?

Work for free, automitize your production facilities. Get the geth to run the entire infastructure of your war.
Its not as impossible as you people seem to think. You cannot eat money, you cannot shoot money. People in ME3 are specifically stated to do things for free because of the whole extinction thing. Example-Smuggler in purgatory.

Now you missing the part about the reaper destroying resources and factory faciloties.

The Russians during WWII shifted their entire production facilities to beyond the Urals where the Germans couldn't get at them. They moved all the equipment they could very quickly. All they would have to do is move the facilities somewhere else such as into a heavily defended and well-controlled system or preferably to a secret location. Given the fact that Alliance forces etc were able to build the Crucible in secret it is feasible. Geth controlled space on the far rim / behind the Perseus veil might not be a bad place to start. I find your defeatist attitude quite disappointing.

The fact that you comparing a ground war to a space war puts a flaw to your point. It's not easy moving things or people  from planet to planet

That's where you are just plain wrong. It doesn't create a flaw at all. In fact it makes it easier to set it up as there's a lot more places to hide the facilities and there are plenty of freighters available for the job. The same effort was put in for building the Crucible. What makes it so different? Nothing. You're moving manufacturing equipment, possibly adapting existing structures/creating makeshift ones, moving people and resources in exaclty the same way as you have to for the Crucible. So what's the big frickin' difference? There is none! The Geth could help as they are outstandingly adaptive and you don't have to feed them. You're being extremely narrow minded. It's just as well you weren't in charge of the Soviet war effort as history would have turned out very differently with someone as negative as you in charge... saying it's not the same is not an argument. It is easy moving things from planet to planet in the Mass Effect universe. There's a war asset which is a bunch of freighters from the Terminus systems that you could use for exactly this purpose. How do you think they would have built the Crucible?!

No it does not. the only way out of a system is viamass relay. the reaper just have to watch that. Added, reapers can track organics, the more orgainic together the easier it is for them to trake them. It not easy to get people out a reaper controled system. With no reaper controled systems, it more of a case of how long the allied forces holding it holds.

So how did they manage to do the same with the Crucible then, genius? War is a time of spectacular technological advancement. We're talking advancement that far outstrips the advances made in preceding decades by comparison and it is because of the sheer necessity of it. The need to gain an edge. The French rolled over and gave up whereas the Russians did not. Attitude and leadership is very important.  You keep conveniently ignoring the example of the Crucible production. Why is that?

The crucilbe is an example of putting together something that was aready design, planned, refined, and caluculated. The crucible took less work to make.

[dreman9999]

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

I understand you point but people are not going to stop eating so they can make weapons.

What does that have to do with anything?

Economy includes food. It's not money allown. Money is not nessiary to have an economy.

[incinerator950]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Its only supposedly out ranged by the reapers, but the Reapers are meant to outrange EVERYTHING, yet they do not. Also, 'near stationary'. The Reapers aren't fond of moving a whole lot. They can't dodge either, they're too big.

I'm referring to the Collector Cruiser.  The Reapers can bank at incredible speeds, and if they reduce their mass, can out turn Alliance Line ships.  They fully capable of dodging.  

Hmm, kinda, yeah. Well personally you'd have to add in a crap ton of foreshadowing and explain why the Catalyst cannot do Sovereign's job. No one ever gives a proper explanation of that. It only helps explain the absurd stupidity displayed by the reapers. Harbinger was meant to be the leader, Harbinger is a freaking genius comapred to starkid.
I don't feel an entire rewrite on the trilogy is needed, just the last one, and not even a total rewrite either. Just lose the MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina.

The Reaper war is not fully explained, touched on, and other wise counted for more of the Reaper Mass Relay Network.  ME1 prompted to keep the original council, or a new council.  ME2 prompted...nothing.  You had a technological marvel that is squandered either by destroying it or giving it to a faction who was supposed to use it, and instead focused on Indoctrination, become indoctrinated themselves.

ME needs to have the old council killed off, to make way for a new leadership to begin preparing for the Reapers.  Since the Collectors are a new threat, not identified to be helping the Reapers, you can use Cerberus to identify for you, even though the Council doesn't have the Jurisdiction to deal with the Terminus systems.  By capturing the Collector Base, you provide Cerberus a technological stepping-stone to help build weapons to fight the invading Reapers.  Since you destroyed the Alpha Relay, you can be put on trial to passify the Batarians while proving your innocence.  Cerberus steps up for you and when they decide your sentence, the Reapers attack Earth.  

ME3 could have been a game about Conventional war, but because of Drews wonderful Convolutance and Mac's love of the side characters, they squandered it for two games before Drew left for the amazing failure of Tor, and Mac is left to construct a MacDeus because the plot can't conceive a logical way to defeat the Reapers in a conventional war. 

[NS Wizdum]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[/quote]Economy includes food. It's not money allown. Money is not nessiary to have an economy.
[/quote]

Why do you keep quoting me and saying that? I never said that money is necessary to have an economy.

People will work in the factories building weapons because the alternative is death by Reaper. If we don't get enough volunteers (people are selfish), then people will work in the factories because people with guns tell them to. 

[incinerator950]

ABCoLD wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet. 

Also, the best time to invade Russia is in the dead of winter.  Just sayin.  History has proven.

 

The Germans were close to knocking out the Russians major supplies, that counts for the mess.  You invade Russia through the south following the Mongolians.  Hitler simply underestimated a lot of things.

[Father_Jerusalem]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

I don't regard destroyers as a credible threat, so to me they're all dreaddies. Even if they have ten times that number, if its 140 of 295, its still vastly underwhelming. oculi are junk, i regard those even less of a threat.

I'm counting any ship. The Quarian flotilla on its own is 50k ships. The Geth probably have a similar number, being able to match them and all. Considering the Quarians arm the entire fleet, including the civilian ships, yes i count those.

Well we know dreadnough numbers, approximately, the geth and quarians boost the number considerably.
I'm making no comparisons to current military numbers. The numbers i get from are in the game. Some things have to be implied when you get things like "Cruiser-weight starships are the standard combat unit encountered away from large naval bases, the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets" This basically means that these would be the most common, but dreadnoughts are so rare they're actually numbered.
Comparing numbers in cutscenes is a bad idea, i mean it makes it seem like theres only a few dozen reapers around earth when its meant to be the bulk of the fleet. Plus theres the whole half of your space assets never showing up. Its why i find that scene cool but totally lacking. The galactic fleet as it ftls in is much more than 127 though.

"I don't count Destroyers or Oculi as credible threats, but all 40k of those Quarian civillian ships ARE LIKE ****ING DEADNOUGHTS YEAH BABY THEY CAN WHUP ANYTHING'S ASS WOOO!"

Are you ****ing serious? You'll just discount a MASSIVE amount of the enemy's fleet and overcount a MASSIVE amount of your fleet?

Fine. Going by that logic, IF the Reapers had only one ship, and you had eleventy gajillion, then conventional victory is totes possible.

For starters, the civilian ships aren't numbered in 40k... Its divided between civvies, the heavy fleet, the patrol fleet and research vessels.
Destroyers have a massive weakness, oculi can be taken down with one shot. the Dreadnoughts are the real threat to the shace ships.
I'm not overcounting the Quarians, they do not make up he bulk of your avaliable fleet, the geth and quarians together, however, do.

That is a horrible comparison. You're worse than a religious nutter.

First off, the Civlian ships ARE numbered in the 40k. That's the ENTIRE Quarian fleet, not the Heavy fleet, not the Light fleet, the ENTIRE FLEET. So if you're saying that the Quarians "alone" have 40,000 ships... congratulations, you just counted a bunch of busted ass freighters as warships.

Second, a "massive" weakness? Yeah, by shooting at the eye with pinpoint targeting with an entire fleet can take out a destroyer. Yup. They sound like giant ****** to me. I mean, they'll just sit there and let you target the eye no problemo... what? They won't do that? Because they're not idiots? Omgnowai.

Third, Oculi can be taken down with one shot? So can fighters. If you're counting fighters, you're counting Oculil. It's that simple. You don't get to dismiss their fighter force as inconsequential because you want to. Full. Freaking. Stop. 

Fourth, you are overcounting the Quarians and we've already covered this. But combining the Geth and Quarian fleets? Sure... supposing you saved the Geth. Supposing the war between the Geth and the Quarians didn't decimate both fleets. Supposing you didn't help destroy their giant super-dreadnought... oops.

Fifth, if you're going to pull the "religious nutter" card, pull it on the person who's ignoring facts and logic and is clinging to his faith in a messiah figure. That ain't me.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
The crucilbe is an example of putting together something that was aready design, planned, refined, and caluculated. The crucible took less work to make.

And all of it could've been completely wrong because of data corruption over the millennia.

[Gruntburner]

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

[incinerator950]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

I don't regard destroyers as a credible threat, so to me they're all dreaddies. Even if they have ten times that number, if its 140 of 295, its still vastly underwhelming. oculi are junk, i regard those even less of a threat.

I'm counting any ship. The Quarian flotilla on its own is 50k ships. The Geth probably have a similar number, being able to match them and all. Considering the Quarians arm the entire fleet, including the civilian ships, yes i count those.

Well we know dreadnough numbers, approximately, the geth and quarians boost the number considerably.
I'm making no comparisons to current military numbers. The numbers i get from are in the game. Some things have to be implied when you get things like "Cruiser-weight starships are the standard combat unit encountered away from large naval bases, the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets" This basically means that these would be the most common, but dreadnoughts are so rare they're actually numbered.
Comparing numbers in cutscenes is a bad idea, i mean it makes it seem like theres only a few dozen reapers around earth when its meant to be the bulk of the fleet. Plus theres the whole half of your space assets never showing up. Its why i find that scene cool but totally lacking. The galactic fleet as it ftls in is much more than 127 though.

"I don't count Destroyers or Oculi as credible threats, but all 40k of those Quarian civillian ships ARE LIKE ****ING DEADNOUGHTS YEAH BABY THEY CAN WHUP ANYTHING'S ASS WOOO!"

Are you ****ing serious? You'll just discount a MASSIVE amount of the enemy's fleet and overcount a MASSIVE amount of your fleet?

Fine. Going by that logic, IF the Reapers had only one ship, and you had eleventy gajillion, then conventional victory is totes possible.

For starters, the civilian ships aren't numbered in 40k... Its divided between civvies, the heavy fleet, the patrol fleet and research vessels.
Destroyers have a massive weakness, oculi can be taken down with one shot. the Dreadnoughts are the real threat to the shace ships.
I'm not overcounting the Quarians, they do not make up he bulk of your avaliable fleet, the geth and quarians together, however, do.

That is a horrible comparison. You're worse than a religious nutter.

First off, the Civlian ships ARE numbered in the 40k. That's the ENTIRE Quarian fleet, not the Heavy fleet, not the Light fleet, the ENTIRE FLEET. So if you're saying that the Quarians "alone" have 40,000 ships... congratulations, you just counted a bunch of busted ass freighters as warships.

Second, a "massive" weakness? Yeah, by shooting at the eye with pinpoint targeting with an entire fleet can take out a destroyer. Yup. They sound like giant ****** to me. I mean, they'll just sit there and let you target the eye no problemo... what? They won't do that? Because they're not idiots? Omgnowai.

Third, Oculi can be taken down with one shot? So can fighters. If you're counting fighters, you're counting Oculil. It's that simple. You don't get to dismiss their fighter force as inconsequential because you want to. Full. Freaking. Stop. 

Fourth, you are overcounting the Quarians and we've already covered this. But combining the Geth and Quarian fleets? Sure... supposing you saved the Geth. Supposing the war between the Geth and the Quarians didn't decimate both fleets. Supposing you didn't help destroy their giant super-dreadnought... oops.

Fifth, if you're going to pull the "religious nutter" card, pull it on the person who's ignoring facts and logic and is clinging to his faith in a messiah figure. That ain't me.

[NS Wizdum]

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 01 août 2012 - 02:13 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

[NS Wizdum]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

We just need more inflateable boats.....

[incinerator950]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

Which they didn't even sink. 

[dreman9999]

@NS Wizdum 
Your still not getting it. In a case of total war, value changes. Money becomes unimportant. Needs do. Living becomes a value and thuse becaome part of the econaomy. The problem is that needs need to done for us to live. You not understand what it cause the economy to collaps in ME. It's not people not getting paid. It people getting what they need to live. The reapers are destory resource, including thing we need to live like food. If there is a food shortage we lose the war. The planets with the food are being cut off form us more and more each da . When the food is gone the economy colaps.

[Father_Jerusalem]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

We just need more inflateable boats.....

*headdesks*

[Gruntburner]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

We just need more inflateable boats.....

You didn't read the part about the anti-fighter countermeasures did you.  Reapers can deal with the "inflatable boats". The ships in the test couldn't.