1098 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Gruntburner wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

The reapers outnumber us on the dreadnought level at least. Last I saw was that in 2186 there were a combined 86 dreadnoughts in total for the citadel races, and that is not taking into account the absolute certainty that that number has taken a major hit since the war has started. The Reapers on the other hand are shown to at least have several hundred capital ships at their disposal, each of which can withstand the simultaneous barrage several dreadnoughts at once. Plus, they also possess anti-fighter countermeasures, similar to GUARDIAN lasers, that make any swarm attempts rather moot.

At the cruiser level it is more uncertain, as the exact numbers of frigates and cruisers in the galaxy, as well as the their Destroyer counterparts, are foggy at best. We know that the numbers of both range into the thousands, though I am inclined to believe that there are fewer destroyers. Unfortunately, frigates and civilian ships cannot match the firepower of destroyers, meaning they would have to outnumber any amount of destroyers by a great deal in order to effectively deal with them. It is really only on this level that swarm tactics could be effective.

In terms of ground forces, they are superior by far. The limit on the supply of troops is only how fast they can slaughter. They can field better, more powerful troops in no time at all and can do so in limitless numbers.

In terms of attrition, we cannot win. A unified economy would collapse in less than a year of fighting. We are limited by supplies, where as the Reapers don't even need to discharge ships cores, let alone feed an army of zombies. Constant replenishing of ships (especially dreadnoughts) would become harder as worlds and supply routes are lost, complicating any long term construction plans. And unless we were shove a rifle into absolutely everyone's hands, we would also have to worry about protecting a civilian population.

Honestly, I can't see how anyone could seriously believe in a conventional victory without taking into account blind optimism or ignorance.

A bunch of civilians on an inflateable boat nearly sank a modern US Warship. Its all about how you approach the situation.

Did they nearly sink the entire US Navy?

No?

Then that comparison doesn't come close to applying here. Yes. You can defeat A Reaper. That's not in doubt. You cannot defeat the Reapers as a FORCE. That's also not in doubt. 

We just need more inflateable boats.....

You didn't read the part about the anti-fighter countermeasures did you.  Reapers can deal with the "inflatable boats". The ships in the test couldn't.

More specifically, the watch didn't call in the boat for them to take out.  One of my old NCO's was on the Rescue team for the USS Cole.  

[Wayning_Star]

I found there to be as many as 50000 known reapers, maybe more...ulp

the oldest reaper found to be almost a billion years old, one maybe two reapers per cycle 50000 years between cycles,maybe less sometimes, races depending.... do the math, I'm too lazy.. :^]

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 01 août 2012 - 02:24 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Yes, because the U.S. military would do just fine against an invading Reaper Armada.

[iamweaver]

Those 40,000 quarian ships are worth 800 TMS. Just saying.

See, there's the thing. We already know that using the measurement Bioware uses for fleet strength, the galaxy is fookd. Because plot. It doesn't matter how many ships you have, and how high your readiness is, the plot says that you are facing a desperate situation, which makes no sense, but its plot.

Fleet sizes are ambiguous and unknowable because they need to be whatever size they need to be to ensure the story line is followed. That's just the fact, and trying to head canon in anything else is meerely "I'm writing my own story, darn it!" Feel free, go ahead. Just don't pretend that it atually has anything to do with the Bioware version of the ME3 universe (and I specifically say, the ME3 universe, because things slide around a lot between games).

[Gruntburner]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I found there to be as many as 50000 known reapers, maybe more...ulp

the oldest reaper found to be almost a billion years old, one maybe two reapers per cycle 50000 years between cycles,maybe less sometimes, races depending.... do the math, I'm too lazy.. :^]

Lets just say there are alot.

[incinerator950]

iamweaver wrote...

Those 40,000 quarian ships are worth 800 TMS. Just saying.

See, there's the thing. We already know that using the measurement Bioware uses for fleet strength, the galaxy is fookd. Because plot. It doesn't matter how many ships you have, and how high your readiness is, the plot says that you are facing a desperate situation, which makes no sense, but its plot.

Fleet sizes are ambiguous and unknowable because they need to be whatever size they need to be to ensure the story line is followed. That's just the fact, and trying to head canon in anything else is meerely "I'm writing my own story, darn it!" Feel free, go ahead. Just don't pretend that it atually has anything to do with the Bioware version of the ME3 universe (and I specifically say, the ME3 universe, because things slide around a lot between games).

Well actually, Bioware can come out and give specifics.  Its great that you read though!

[NS Wizdum]

dreman9999 wrote...

@NS Wizdum 
Your still not getting it. In a case of total war, value changes. Money becomes unimportant. Needs do. Living becomes a value and thuse becaome part of the econaomy. The problem is that needs need to done for us to live. You not understand what it cause the economy to collaps in ME. It's not people not getting paid. It people getting what they need to live. The reapers are destory resource, including thing we need to live like food. If there is a food shortage we lose the war. The planets with the food are being cut off form us more and more each da . When the food is gone the economy colaps.

Ok, now I have to assume you are not even reading my posts. For the last time, I understand that economy is more than just money, FFS. Like I said, individuals will still barter for goods, but the military is either going to be given resources, or just take what they need. That includes food, water, and resources needed to live. The quarians seem to handle nutrition just fine, and they have no planets. Food is not as big of a problem in the Mass Effect universe as it is now. Everything changes when we are talking total destruction, and not just destruction of a localized area.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

*headdesks*

 

Read my post. Its not about using that exact strategy against the Reapers. That was an example of a technologically superior vessel being critically damaged by a far inferior one.
Obviously fishing boats are of little use against the Reapers.... 

Gruntburner wrote...

You didn't read the part about the anti-fighter countermeasures did you.  Reapers can deal with the "inflatable boats". The ships in the test couldn't.

 

Read my post. Its not about using that exact strategy against the Reapers. That was an example of a technologically superior vessel being critically damaged by a far inferior one. Obviously fishing boats are of little use against the Reapers....

[BerzerkGene]

dreman9999 wrote...

You need to talk to a Garrus more...

Note; winning one battle does not mean winning the war.

Thats actually before the miracle at palaven.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 01 août 2012 - 02:47 .

[NS Wizdum]

Gruntburner wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I found there to be as many as 50000 known reapers, maybe more...ulp

the oldest reaper found to be almost a billion years old, one maybe two reapers per cycle 50000 years between cycles,maybe less sometimes, races depending.... do the math, I'm too lazy.. :^]

Lets just say there are alot.

You are assuming a total loss of 0 ships in 1 billion years, thats a hell of an assumption.

[krasnoarmeets]

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

I understand you point but people are not going to stop eating so they can make weapons.

Nor would anyone expect them to. Rationing is expected in times of war,
however, and those who work get a better ration. To a certain extent
modern production facilities can be automated making for less actual
manual labour or people required. Geth can maintain production equipment. They
could even help assemble/design/transport. They have a huge fleet and
are incredibly resourceful as are the Quarians by necessity. The
Quarians are well known for being able to salvage a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. They
have had to be self-sufficient for 3 centuries as have the Geth by
necessity having been without any allies. Anyone stupid enough to not
broker peace between the Geth and Quarians deserves to get reaped.

dreman9999 wrote...
No.  your missing the trial and error part of the process. That takes time. They did not just copy and paste a design. Time is still an issue.

No, they had to reverse engineer it and that only took 11 months..Modifying it would take much less time.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 01 août 2012 - 02:36 .

[Gruntburner]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

You didn't read the part about the anti-fighter countermeasures did you.  Reapers can deal with the "inflatable boats". The ships in the test couldn't.

 

Read my post. Its not about using that exact strategy against the Reapers. That was an example of a technologically superior vessel being critically damaged by a far inferior one. Obviously fishing boats are of little use against the Reapers....

But the specifics of each situation are what make the difference.  Making vast generalizations based on who is more advanced is devoid of logic.  You offer proof that the Reapers can be defeated by citing examples that wholly unrelated to them.

Modifié par Gruntburner, 01 août 2012 - 02:39 .

[incinerator950]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Nor would anyone expect them to. Rationing is expected in times of war,
however, and those who work get a better ration. To a certain extent
modern production facilities can be automated making for less actual
manual labour or people required. Geth can maintain production equipment. They
could even help assemble/design/transport. They have a huge fleet and
are incredibly resourceful as are the Quarians by necessity. The
Quarians are well known for being able to salvage a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. They
have had to be self-sufficient for 3 centuries as have the Geth by
necessity having been without any allies. Anyone stupid enough to not
broker peace between the Geth and Quarians deserves to get reaped.

dreman9999 wrote...
No.  your missing the trial and error part of the process. That takes time. They did not just copy and paste a design. Time is still an issue.

No, they had to reverse engineer it and that only took 11 months..Modifying it would take much less time.

People like you are going to be popular with the Council races.  You know, the 30+ Billion you're supposed to save. 

[BerzerkGene]

ABCoLD wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet. 

Also, the best time to invade Russia is in the dead of winter.  Just sayin.  History has proven.

Thats like saying the best time to invade western australia is in the middle of summer.

[BerzerkGene]

incinerator950 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Nor would anyone expect them to. Rationing is expected in times of war,
however, and those who work get a better ration. To a certain extent
modern production facilities can be automated making for less actual
manual labour or people required. Geth can maintain production equipment. They
could even help assemble/design/transport. They have a huge fleet and
are incredibly resourceful as are the Quarians by necessity. The
Quarians are well known for being able to salvage a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. They
have had to be self-sufficient for 3 centuries as have the Geth by
necessity having been without any allies. Anyone stupid enough to not
broker peace between the Geth and Quarians deserves to get reaped.

dreman9999 wrote...
No.  your missing the trial and error part of the process. That takes time. They did not just copy and paste a design. Time is still an issue.

No, they had to reverse engineer it and that only took 11 months..Modifying it would take much less time.

People like you are going to be popular with the Council races.  You know, the 30+ Billion you're supposed to save. 

The council likes peace...They still accept the geth if you just murder all the quarians.
I think the council races number in the trillions. Seeing as Earth by itself had 11billion.

[BerzerkGene]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I found there to be as many as 50000 known reapers, maybe more...ulp

the oldest reaper found to be almost a billion years old, one maybe two reapers per cycle 50000 years between cycles,maybe less sometimes, races depending.... do the math, I'm too lazy.. :^]

Lets just say there are alot.

You are assuming a total loss of 0 ships in 1 billion years, thats a hell of an assumption.

More like 0 losses in 2.5billion years. but your point stands. The cycle is always at 50k years, the current one was delayed because of the protheans(although how the Catalyst didn't solve this, i don't know)

[3DandBeyond]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

WestLakeDragon wrote...

So I was just reading up on a few things and, as someone said earlier that Reapers are affected by radiation. Well, why not make microwave cannons? We already have the ability to fire microwaves, as evidenced by the US weapon, the 'Pain Ray'. Now that one doesn't fire radioactive waves, but, the fact that it uses microwaves means it could be.

Shhh! We must only work on the Crucible and nothing else! Why? Because common f***ing sense is outlawed by BioWare and pro-enders.

This.  I think the endings would make just as much sense if a giant marshmallow man came out of a cake and offered those choices.

Don't ever try to use your imagination and think of ways that things might be used or use info from within the games or try and learn methods that might have had some success in the past.  Imagination can only be used for head canoning plot holes and some endings.  Otherwise, you need the crucible and the kid.  Why do you need the crucible and the kid?  Because otherwise it's impossible.  Why is it impossible?  So you need the crucible and the kid.  Circular logic, at least it's consistent.

[Ticonderoga117]

BerzerkGene wrote...

(although how the Catalyst didn't solve this, i don't know)

Because he, like, didn't exist at all until ME3.

[incinerator950]

BerzerkGene wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Nor would anyone expect them to. Rationing is expected in times of war,
however, and those who work get a better ration. To a certain extent
modern production facilities can be automated making for less actual
manual labour or people required. Geth can maintain production equipment. They
could even help assemble/design/transport. They have a huge fleet and
are incredibly resourceful as are the Quarians by necessity. The
Quarians are well known for being able to salvage a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. They
have had to be self-sufficient for 3 centuries as have the Geth by
necessity having been without any allies. Anyone stupid enough to not
broker peace between the Geth and Quarians deserves to get reaped.

dreman9999 wrote...
No.  your missing the trial and error part of the process. That takes time. They did not just copy and paste a design. Time is still an issue.

No, they had to reverse engineer it and that only took 11 months..Modifying it would take much less time.

People like you are going to be popular with the Council races.  You know, the 30+ Billion you're supposed to save. 

The council likes peace...They still accept the geth if you just murder all the quarians.
I think the council races number in the trillions. Seeing as Earth by itself had 11billion.

The specifics are mulled, but the homeworlds contain the largest population centers of the various races.  Few colonies have over a few million, and I don't believe there are any colonies with a billion in population.  So yeah.

[dreman9999]

BerzerkGene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You need to talk to a Garrus more...

Note; winning one battle does not mean winning the war.

Thats actually before the miracle at palaven.

This conversation is after that.
 The mirecle of palven happens before rennock is resolved. The conversation with Garrus is after rennoch.

[BerzerkGene]

incinerator950 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Its only supposedly out ranged by the reapers, but the Reapers are meant to outrange EVERYTHING, yet they do not. Also, 'near stationary'. The Reapers aren't fond of moving a whole lot. They can't dodge either, they're too big.

I'm referring to the Collector Cruiser.  The Reapers can bank at incredible speeds, and if they reduce their mass, can out turn Alliance Line ships.  They fully capable of dodging.  

Hmm, kinda, yeah. Well personally you'd have to add in a crap ton of foreshadowing and explain why the Catalyst cannot do Sovereign's job. No one ever gives a proper explanation of that. It only helps explain the absurd stupidity displayed by the reapers. Harbinger was meant to be the leader, Harbinger is a freaking genius comapred to starkid.
I don't feel an entire rewrite on the trilogy is needed, just the last one, and not even a total rewrite either. Just lose the MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina.

The Reaper war is not fully explained, touched on, and other wise counted for more of the Reaper Mass Relay Network.  ME1 prompted to keep the original council, or a new council.  ME2 prompted...nothing.  You had a technological marvel that is squandered either by destroying it or giving it to a faction who was supposed to use it, and instead focused on Indoctrination, become indoctrinated themselves.

ME needs to have the old council killed off, to make way for a new leadership to begin preparing for the Reapers.  Since the Collectors are a new threat, not identified to be helping the Reapers, you can use Cerberus to identify for you, even though the Council doesn't have the Jurisdiction to deal with the Terminus systems.  By capturing the Collector Base, you provide Cerberus a technological stepping-stone to help build weapons to fight the invading Reapers.  Since you destroyed the Alpha Relay, you can be put on trial to passify the Batarians while proving your innocence.  Cerberus steps up for you and when they decide your sentence, the Reapers attack Earth.  

ME3 could have been a game about Conventional war, but because of Drews wonderful Convolutance and Mac's love of the side characters, they squandered it for two games before Drew left for the amazing failure of Tor, and Mac is left to construct a MacDeus because the plot can't conceive a logical way to defeat the Reapers in a conventional war. 

I'm very glad you mentioned that, in order to turn so quickly and efficently, reapers have to weaken their barriers. This makes an attack from behind extremely viable, either they turn quickly to shoot the enemy, basically exposing themselves, or they tank the hits, or turn slowly, in which case the ships firing at them stay behind them.

My point was that the entire plot and part of the history of the ME universe is negated by the Catalyst's very being. Really i find it odd that the Collector base could even be salvaged, it was the only thing keeping the local area falling into a black hole, ewhen it blows up, that should be it.

That little rewritten bit is not bad. I found it a bit ludicrious that TIM gets indoctrinated so easily. Like somehow people haven't learned that messing with Reaper tech is a bad idea.

ME2 could have certainly been changed, but honestly its my favourite of the series. It could have been more about building up things for the war, theres a side mission where you have to choose between civilans and production facilities, it doesn't mean anything but i expected it to.
I also expected more visiting of places like Feros again, gaining some new tech they discovered or something(it being a prothean ruin and all). There were numerous options rather than Deus Ex Machina, convieniently found on MARS.
There is a logical way. Especially once you learn the existence of starchild.
You kill him.
That would get my vote.

[dreman9999]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

The Geth have no economy, they do fine.
Money means nothing. Its an idea. Paying someone to fight now is valid because money has a value. In a war where civilisation will be destroyed, money means less than nothing. Soldiers fight for free.

Please... look up material about economics to see what currency is and how it works.  You will learn a lot that will be useful to you in the future if you do.

How do you know the Geth have no economy?

Economy only matters if you have some safe place to spend the money. When we're talking about the destruction of the entire galaxy, economy goes out the fracking window. You do what you have to to survive.

Anytime there are things that require resources, time and effort, an economy exists.  This is what an economy *is*.  And in case you haven't figured out - that's always.

And those resources will be made availible without pay, because the alternative is death. In case you havn't figured out, this isn't a traditional war. Hackett isn't trying to barter ammo from Walmart.

Economy does not equal to maony.
Any form of trade is an economy.
Thw issues is not credits.
The issue is food, supplies, and basic needs.
It getting that.
An economy is what is used to manage this.
Money is just an illusion. Need is what the problem is. Ifpeople make weapons but don't get basic need, the war falls appar. That is what an economy covers.

I never said credits, or money. People will not sit on piles of food, supplies, or arms, simply because they are not being offered anything. They will give those away for FREE (Free as in beer. no trade, no barter, no cash, etc.) because the alternative is DEATH. D - E - A - T -H. There will most likely still be an econemy for small things, People will trade for basic comforts or supplies, but you will not see any trading when it comes to the army. It will be "give us your stuff or we kill you and take it."

I understand you point but people are not going to stop eating so they can make weapons.

Nor would anyone expect them to. Rationing is expected in times of war,
however, and those who work get a better ration. To a certain extent
modern production facilities can be automated making for less actual
manual labour or people required. Geth can maintain production equipment. They
could even help assemble/design/transport. They have a huge fleet and
are incredibly resourceful as are the Quarians by necessity. The
Quarians are well known for being able to salvage a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. They
have had to be self-sufficient for 3 centuries as have the Geth by
necessity having been without any allies. Anyone stupid enough to not
broker peace between the Geth and Quarians deserves to get reaped.

dreman9999 wrote...
No.  your missing the trial and error part of the process. That takes time. They did not just copy and paste a design. Time is still an issue.

No, they had to reverse engineer it and that only took 11 months..Modifying it would take much less time.

1. OF cource they will ration but a limit of how much they ration is till an issue.We will run out of food long before the reaper war  ends if it becomes a battle of endurance.
2. That still takes time. Time is the issue. Which we have little of.

[BerzerkGene]

dreman9999 wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You need to talk to a Garrus more...

Note; winning one battle does not mean winning the war.

Thats actually before the miracle at palaven.

This conversation is after that.
 The mirecle of palven happens before rennock is resolved. The conversation with Garrus is after rennoch.

Chronologically it happens after the fall of thessia, which is after rannoch.

[NS Wizdum]

Gruntburner wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

You didn't read the part about the anti-fighter countermeasures did you.  Reapers can deal with the "inflatable boats". The ships in the test couldn't.

 

Read my post. Its not about using that exact strategy against the Reapers. That was an example of a technologically superior vessel being critically damaged by a far inferior one. Obviously fishing boats are of little use against the Reapers....

But the specifics of each situation are what make the difference.  Making vast generalizations based on who is more advanced is devoid of logic.  You offer proof that the Reapers can be defeated by citing examples that wholly unrelated to them.

The specifics do not matter, unless you want to discuss the specific tactics for taking out the Reapers.

The Reapers are not magic. They are simply machines. They exist within the Mass Effect universe and are bound by its rules. Everything has a weakness. The Reapers have many. For starters, they have an ineffecient main gun that can only fire in the direction the ship is pointed in (and their huge ships take a long time to change direction) which limits the number of ships they can engage at once (unless you are Hackett, and decide to line our ships up like fracking dominoes), and they are required to take killed/captured individuals into the inside of their ships (suicide bombers anyone?).

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 01 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[BerzerkGene]

incinerator950 wrote...


The specifics are mulled, but the homeworlds contain the largest population centers of the various races.  Few colonies have over a few million, and I don't believe there are any colonies with a billion in population.  So yeah.

Lusia. Population: 2.2billion.
Digeris. Population: 1.9 billion
Talis Fila. Population: 3.8 billion.
These are all colonies.

[incinerator950]

BerzerkGene wrote...

ME2 could have certainly been changed, but honestly its my favourite of the series. It could have been more about building up things for the war, theres a side mission where you have to choose between civilans and production facilities, it doesn't mean anything but i expected it to.
I also expected more visiting of places like Feros again, gaining some new tech they discovered or something(it being a prothean ruin and all). There were numerous options rather than Deus Ex Machina, convieniently found on MARS.
There is a logical way. Especially once you learn the existence of starchild.
You kill him.
That would get my vote.

Yes, unshackling the Reapers by killing their AI control network.  <_<