1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

incinerator950 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

See the thread in my sig about conventional victory that I wrote a long time back. I discussed Thannix cannons. The main problem is that you have to rely on (a) Reapers being moronic and ( a Thannix cannon "multiplier" (how much stronger Thannix is versus normal dreadnought weapons) that would have to be so large that it would be put into the deus ex machinima category. 

Reapers can FTL in and out of fights at will, something no modern engagements can have either party do. That alone, combined with better sensors (they can sense us and fire farther away than we can), along with jamming technology, their presence of greater numbers (more sovvy ships than dreadnoughts, more destroyers than cruisers, more occuli than fighters), their 100% knowledge of the relay network, and instantaneous communication (aka communicating by "snail mail" versus "email") give them a huge advantage.

Wargames have always been ****ing stupid.  I can't believe anyone would want to use that as an example.  

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

[Wayning_Star]

Femlob wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Femlob wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

"You know we can't win this conventionally."
"Why the f*ck not?"
"Because reasons."
"No, seriously. Why the f*ck not?"
"It is not a thing you can comprehend."

You know what pisses me off? People who accept shit at face value without questioning its validity. Isn't anybody else bothered by the fact that NOBODY in the ENTIRE F*CKING GAME bothers to explain exactly WHY conventional victory isn't possible?

And we have "permission" to use the Crucible, now? I'll admit it, seeing a two-game defy-the-odds hero reduced to a witless pawn to be exploited and tossed away after use certainly brings my ****** to a f*cking boil.

Yeah, reapers are a pain in the assets. But you have to know what the opposition has for sure, or you plainly don't know what your opposition has. The friggen game never donates that info for the conventional battle folk, so they're haveing to piece together enough 'stuff' to even head canon such a feat. The game is really arbitrary about reapers being pretty much if not straight up the undefeatalbe champion of the MEU. Swatted the protheans like a bug..they were the most powerful race known, who know what other races they whipped in the billion or so years they were in action. Heck they even thumped their creator race. That right there is a tell as to their military strength. I'm sure they didn't go down without a conventional fight...

"They're powerful. That means there's no way for us to win without a magical weapon. We have no facts to back up this assertion other than the fact that they're powerful."

Sounds legit.

hey, they kind of built the magical weapon, so? Well their creators built some sort of machine, could be a black hole mining probe for all we know, but it's not magic..per se.It wasn't an actual weapon till we got hold of one. Realistically (tougue in cheek:) the entire MEU is magical in the relation to what is 'high technology' we kind of have to write the book on 'what it is' with tactical stuff or even how to make a call home, or pick up groceries.

As far as powerful is concerned, we just have to rely on the MEU history and codex with who had what and when it could be used as helpful in the battle against reapers?

[Wayning_Star]

Skirata129 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overhwelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military excercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

See the thread in my sig about conventional victory that I wrote a long time back. I discussed Thannix cannons. The main problem is that you have to rely on (a) Reapers being moronic and ( a Thannix cannon "multiplier" (how much stronger Thannix is versus normal dreadnought weapons) that would have to be so large that it would be put into the deus ex machinima category. 

Reapers can FTL in and out of fights at will, something no modern engagements can have either party do. That alone, combined with better sensors (they can sense us and fire farther away than we can), along with jamming technology, their presence of greater numbers (more sovvy ships than dreadnoughts, more destroyers than cruisers, more occuli than fighters), their 100% knowledge of the relay network, and instantaneous communication (aka communicating by "snail mail" versus "email") give them a huge advantage.

Wargames have always been ****ing stupid.  I can't believe anyone would want to use that as an example.  

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

well that and the most famous one: those who live with the most toys wins

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 01 août 2012 - 04:20 .

[Uncle Jo]

incinerator950 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet. 

Also, the best time to invade Russia is in the dead of winter.  Just sayin.  History has proven.

 

The Germans were close to knocking out the Russians major supplies, that counts for the mess.  You invade Russia through the south following the Mongolians.  Hitler simply underestimated a lot of things.

There's also Mussolini's foolish campaign in Greece which delayed the Operation Barbarossa for more than one month. Which also has its importance in this case.

On-topic: Your military knowledge seems to indicate that you either serve or served. Your points are valid and as the galaxy stands at the beginning of ME3, it was hopeless. However, we're neither in a wargame, nor in a military academy.

It's Mass Effect, a game where a thresher maw ate a Reaper, Shep laser painted a Destroyer on foot and escaped its death ray,  just to be blasted by Harbinger in the beam run, when the plot needed to. The writers never thought as far as you, when they wrote their frakking third installment. No one would have asked them to do that much. 

They should only have implied at the beginning of the game that the galaxy indeed secretly prepared for the Reapers invasion (each race separately for that matters), add some codex entries, multiply the allied warship numbers, fix a plausible number of Reapers and go for the conventional victory. Without even touching the ME2 plot. Hell, we never really saw our war assets in action anyway and the Fleets arrival cutscene would have worked as it is even if the implied warships number had been higher.

It's still a retcon, but not as much as what the Brat did to the first two games. No one would have complained.

Drew is less to blame (although he's partly responsible) than Walters who with his nihilistic intentions, his transhumanistic weirdness and his will to get rid of the ME universe, lead us to the Crucible and the Space Troll.

I think personally that a conventional victory and one ending with variations depending on your EMS would have been infinitely better than the cr*p we're now left with.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 01 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[incinerator950]

Uncle Jo wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
The plot demanded it, Hacket and the Council was behind it, while everyone wanted to finish it because it was their one hope. 

The Russians didn't give in because Stalin was threatening to shoot his own men in the back.  The Germans failed because they ended up fighting a two-sided war with the Allies supplying Russia before they could get back on their feet. 

Also, the best time to invade Russia is in the dead of winter.  Just sayin.  History has proven.

 

The Germans were close to knocking out the Russians major supplies, that counts for the mess.  You invade Russia through the south following the Mongolians.  Hitler simply underestimated a lot of things.

There's also Mussolini's foolish campaign in Greece which delayed the Operation Barbarossa for more than one month. Which also has its importance in this case.

On-topic: Your military knowledge seem to indicate that you either serve or served. Your points are valid and as the galaxy stand at the beginning of ME3, it was hopeless. However, we're neither in a wargame, nor in a military academy.

It's Mass Effect, a game where a thresher maw ate a Reaper, Shep laser painted a Destroyer on foot and escaped its death ray,  just to be blasted by Harbinger in the beam run, when the plot needed to. The writers never thought as far as you, when they wrote their frakking third installment. No one would have asked them to do that much. 

They should only have implied at the beginning of the game that the galaxy indeed secretly prepared for the Reapers invasion (each race separately for that matters), add some codex entries, multiply the allied warship numbers, fix a plausible number of Reapers and go for the conventional victory. Without even touching the ME2 plot. Hell, we never really saw our war assets in action anyway and the Fleets arrival cutscene would have worked as it is even if the implied warships number had been higher.

It's still a retcon, but not as much as what the Brat did to the first two games. No one would have complaint.

Drew is less to blame (although he's partly responsible) than Walters who with his nihilistic intentions, his transhumanistic weirdness and his will to get rid of the ME universe, lead us to the Crucible and the Space Troll.

I think personally that a conventional victory and one ending with variations depending on your EMS would have been infinitely better than the cr*p we're now left with.

Good instincts, I served in the US Navy.  As for your opinion, I agree.  It would have been better to make a story about winning a horrible conventional War with EMS based endings, as opposed to the Crucible.  Conventional Victory is possible, the way Mac and the Writer developed it though, its not going to be plausible.  

[BerzerkGene]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

"Driven from their home system by the geth nearly three centuries ago, most quarians now live aboard the Migrant Fleet, a flotilla of fifty thousand vessels ranging in size from passenger shuttles to mobile space stations."
Anything with a gun counts as a military asset. Whether they're glass cannons or not, they're fitted with thanix cannons, that gives them significant firepower. It helps they stay back and basically provide covering fire too.

*sigh* It was not an entire fleet. An entire fleet would have completely decimated the area Shepard was in. It was about 2 dozen ships. The bulk of the fleet was still fighting the geth. After you find said weakness, its basically one giant co-ordinated shot at its face. Shepard managed to pinpoint it while running around on the ground, an advanced targetting computer of a ship would be vastly superior.
They're not idiots, yeah they kind of are. If you were the Rannoch destroyer, would you sweep your laser vertically at shepard, or horizontally? one offers Shepard the chance to dodge, another does not. The Reapers intelligence was completely nerfed as soon as Harbinger was no longer their boss.

Fine, but Oculi don't have the same amount of firepower as a thanix armed fighter. If they did there would be no need to even have reapers as a defending force, just have a fleet of oculi, they shred the enemy, problem solved. I think you see perhaps a dozen of them take out a turian cruiser above palaven.

Why would you not save the geth? Personally the only Quarians i liked were Tali, Kal'Reegar, Veetor and that Qwib Qwib guy. The rest are too selfish. The Quarian Geth war didn't decimate both fleets, but it took a chunk out of them, for sure. The geth were initially losing until the Reaper took over.
Yeah that dreadnought. Why would there only be one? Thats the first geth dreadnought we've seen. The have as many as the Turians.

You're ignoring facts. You won't even admit that the hades cannon is a reaper. You just say it isn't, giving no reasons as to why the thing that looks like exactly like a reaper, has the power of a reaper and dies like a reaper, isn't a reaper.
Honestly i don't care that much about Shepard. He/she is one person. While as my avatar, i do care, but Shepard still does a lot of things that i completely disagree with, no matter what i do. Could i do a better job? With speeches and organisation, yeah. As a leader and soldier? Hell no.

A freighter with a gun on it does not count as a "warship". Once again, you're ludicrously suggesting that the Quarian fleet is omgsobadass with their thousands upon thousands of barely held together ships, and utterly dismissing the Destroyers of the Reaper armada as inconsequential. That is utterly hypocritical of you, and it's just WRONG. 

The Rannoch Reaper was about gameplay functionality. Not stupidity. They wanted to give you an "zomg badass" moment and, had they realized that it would have lead to idiotic comments, they probably wouldn't have put it in. "Reaper Destroyers are so easy to defeat"... yeah, it took how many direct hits from HOW many ships while the Destroyer was planetbound, not firing at the ships, and had its barriers down because of the gravity? Please. PLEASE. 

Once again, you ignore the fact that Thanix cannons are based off the eezero core of the ship they're mounted on.. fighters with Thanix cannons would be little more dangerous than fighters without Thanix cannons, simply because their cores aren't big enough to make the Thanix mean a damn thing. And there are still more Oculi than there are fighters, so... 

Why would you not save the Geth? Because not every Shepard is YOUR FREAKING SHEPARD. Other people may actually make different choices than YOU did. But by all means, feel free to punish them for not being your carbon copy.

And the Hades cannon is not a Destroyer. It's not. Just stop with this asinine line. For chrissakes. Just because it has the chassis of a Destroyer does NOT MEAN it has the same capabilities as a Destroyer. God. Just stop it. It's ridiculous.

I do not recall ever saying the Quarians, by themselves, turn the tide of the war. You said there were 40,000 vessels, the game disagrees. You say a freighter doesn't count as a warship. With  a giant gun on it, it does. Is a civlian a soldier? No. Is a civilian with a gun? No reason he can't be. They aren't all 'barely held together' and the Quarians pride themselves on maintaining their huge fleet. I do not recall hearing about half their ships breaking down all the time. They use second hand ships and repurpose others. They have access to the latest technology and are essentially a race of engineers.

It was about stupidity. That conversation with the dying destroyer? Bloody nonsense. "It is not a thing you can comprehend." not "Ah, my boss will tell you ina couple dozen lines at the end, totally easy to understand. Doesn't make sense, but understandable." Like i said, it was about 2 dozen ships, with regular weapons, initially it was basically pushing the reaper back. It does fire up a couple times and Traynor does mention that fact when you get back to the normandy. Its after you knock it over and make it a more focussed target(why they stop firing when it goes down is beyond me) That its less ships that fire. Maybe a dozen, because too many shots would just hit each other trying to hit such a small target.

Thanix cannons require an EM field to be maintained. Nothing is mentioned about how much power it uses. It says it can fire reliably every 5 seconds, yet mountable on most fighters and frigates. It doesn't say all, or specific ones, most; the majority. Oculi only outnumber fighters if you take the end cutscene at face value, ignoring the lack of every other fighter in existence. The geth, quarian, turian, salarian etc, fighters are not even there.

It doesn't matter who's shepard is whose, The Geth offer more in terms of military assets. Its the intelligent thing to do. The more intelligent thing is make peace. Being a totl renegade may be fun, but it pretty much always is the bad thing to do. Its why being a paragon gets you so many more assets. A perfect playthrough(maximum assets) would be ideal, but even then thats around 7400EMS. The idea of conventional victory being extremely hard to obtain isn't a bad one. Yes if you slaughtered the rachni queen you should be punished, YOU COMMITED GENOCIDE.

Of course the hades cannon destroyer doesn't have the same capabilities, its been changed into a pure anti air platform. I'm saying it is a reaper. My discussion with incinerator950 leads me to think its a customized reaper,. I even watched the scene again. The cannon itself explodes, causing a secondary explosion, the reaper makes reaper noises and dies, sending out those red reaper sparkles. You outright deny its a reaper. You never mentioned that its customised, repurposed or altered so its not the same as a destroyer, you simply say it doesn't have the same capabilities.

Modifié par BerzerkGene, 01 août 2012 - 04:43 .

[Skirata129]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

well that and the most famous one: those who live with the most toys wins

I meant more from the perspective of psychological conditioning, but that too.

incinerator950 wrote...

Good instincts, I served in the US Navy.

 I can see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of a third world nation being able to devastate a carrier battlegroup with relatively commonplace vehicles and armament.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

well that and the most famous one: those who live with the most toys wins

I meant more from the perspective of psychological conditioning, but that too.

incinerator950 wrote...

Good instincts, I served in the US Navy.

 I can see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of a third world nation being able to devastate a carrier battlegroup with relatively commonplace vehicles and armament.

Cruise Missiles were the death blow of Blue Fleet.  Red managed to take advantage of Blue's test equipment.  This is no different then trying to ban Sonar pings when you have Submarines in the water.  To equate it in your terms, an entire fleet of Heavy Frigates is going to get smashed even if they attempt to get around the Reapers.

[Skirata129]

The commander just exploited the inability of Blue fleet to intercept older communication methods, and overwhelmed the defense systems through overwhelming numbers, rather than technological superiority. I don't see how this was not viable in real life, albeit with some tweaks.

I extrapolated this to using QEC for a similarly secure communications systems and swarms of small but relatively heavily armed fighters or frigates. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

[Skirata129]

hey, you could even take his idea of converting civillian craft to military use by packing them with eezo core explosives or mounting guns on them. saves a lot of time for manufacturing new fighters.

[satunnainen]

Skirata129 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

well that and the most famous one: those who live with the most toys wins

I meant more from the perspective of psychological conditioning, but that too.

incinerator950 wrote...

Good instincts, I served in the US Navy.

 I can see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of a third world nation being able to devastate a carrier battlegroup with relatively commonplace vehicles and armament.

All the modern (or historic) military installments (ships, bunkers, camps, carriers, whatevers) consist of the frame (ship, building, whatever) and the people operating it. So it is not some big homogenous organism, instead it is a collection of individual people doing their tasks with various efficiency. That is why you can, atleast in theory, attack a lot harder target with a small group(s) and succeed. Just find a weak spot and push hard enough until something cracks.

Reapers on the other hand are single organisms with shields around them and guns/lasers/armor to protect them. A bit more difficult to attack with some single heroic group.

Btw, arent the carriers protected by smaller ships and helicopters these days?

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

The commander just exploited the inability of Blue fleet to intercept older communication methods, and overwhelmed the defense systems through overwhelming numbers, rather than technological superiority. I don't see how this was not viable in real life, albeit with some tweaks.

I extrapolated this to using QEC for a similarly secure communications systems and swarms of small but relatively heavily armed fighters or frigates. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

He picked at the main part of the defense grid, which were the Cruisers.  Then he launched a suicide bombing and waves of first-gen Cruise missiles that did most of the work for his PT boats.  Which was basically overloading the crewman and technology of Blue Fleet. 

Yes, by evidence of the Quarians rushing the Geth-Dreadnought.  Also watching fighter squadrons flail helplessly at Reapers, its unlikely that a ship crashing into one filled with explosives is going to leave much of a dent.  I seriously hope you don't use this as an excuse to advocate building more Normandy Frigates or Salarian Stealth Dreadnoughts, when its clear the Reapers bite back harder in every counter-attack.  Its Clear the Reapers possess the Defenses to stave off several forms of hit-and-runs, high-speed attacks, and brute force.

Modifié par incinerator950, 01 août 2012 - 05:12 .

[Skirata129]

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

[BerzerkGene]

incinerator950 wrote...

Yes, by evidence of the Quarians rushing the Geth-Dreadnought.  Also watching fighter squadrons flail helplessly at Reapers, its unlikely that a ship crashing into one filled with explosives is going to leave much of a dent.  I seriously hope you don't use this as an excuse to advocate building more Normandy Frigates or Salarian Stealth Dreadnoughts, when its clear the Reapers bite back harder in every counter-attack.  Its Clear the Reapers possess the Defenses to stave off several forms of hit-and-runs, high-speed attacks, and brute force.

The only fighters you see use standard weapons and thats against the tuchanka reaper.
I think the idea is to get inside the reapers, all of which have some kind of docking for their oculi and storage area for husks.
Its not really that clear, the reapers can shrug off most things, fighers frigates and the normandy get very close to reapers, yet they never use the point defenses they're meant to have.. Building things built primarily for speed and agility, which the reapers lack, would be a good idea however.
Hit and runs work, its what the asari did, until the reapers got to thessia, then they stopped with that.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

Which get cut down by Gardian Lasers.  Not to mention Reapers do fly in formation. 

Its too conventional, you want to beat the Reapers, you need to get down more.  There's more than one way to use an Asteroid, something many SW fans should be familiar with.  

[incinerator950]

BerzerkGene wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Yes, by evidence of the Quarians rushing the Geth-Dreadnought.  Also watching fighter squadrons flail helplessly at Reapers, its unlikely that a ship crashing into one filled with explosives is going to leave much of a dent.  I seriously hope you don't use this as an excuse to advocate building more Normandy Frigates or Salarian Stealth Dreadnoughts, when its clear the Reapers bite back harder in every counter-attack.  Its Clear the Reapers possess the Defenses to stave off several forms of hit-and-runs, high-speed attacks, and brute force.

The only fighters you see use standard weapons and thats against the tuchanka reaper.
I think the idea is to get inside the reapers, all of which have some kind of docking for their oculi and storage area for husks.
Its not really that clear, the reapers can shrug off most things, fighers frigates and the normandy get very close to reapers, yet they never use the point defenses they're meant to have.. Building things built primarily for speed and agility, which the reapers lack, would be a good idea however.
Hit and runs work, its what the asari did, until the reapers got to thessia, then they stopped with that.

That was specifically the problem, they took the losses and kept pushing.  What people don't seem to realize is the Reapers willingly take their casualties and push back harder than you push them.  Just like flanking them at Palaven with knife-point Dreadnoughts.  Just like Taetrus where the Turians tried pulsing through the Relays and ended up facing prepared Reaper Capitals. 

No, you see Fighters in almost every major battle.  Earth, Manae, and even Earth again.  Fighters need Thanix and Disruptor Torpedoes, but like the Reaper variation of Gardian lasers, they're not present.  Again, WYSIWYG.

[incinerator950]

satunnainen wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Really? they're a significant part of why modern militaries are so deadly.

well that and the most famous one: those who live with the most toys wins

I meant more from the perspective of psychological conditioning, but that too.

incinerator950 wrote...

Good instincts, I served in the US Navy.

 I can see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of a third world nation being able to devastate a carrier battlegroup with relatively commonplace vehicles and armament.

All the modern (or historic) military installments (ships, bunkers, camps, carriers, whatevers) consist of the frame (ship, building, whatever) and the people operating it. So it is not some big homogenous organism, instead it is a collection of individual people doing their tasks with various efficiency. That is why you can, atleast in theory, attack a lot harder target with a small group(s) and succeed. Just find a weak spot and push hard enough until something cracks.

Reapers on the other hand are single organisms with shields around them and guns/lasers/armor to protect them. A bit more difficult to attack with some single heroic group.

Btw, arent the carriers protected by smaller ships and helicopters these days?

They are, the primary point of Red's engagement was to strip them of that primary defense, which were Aegis Cruisers.

Red Fleets basic principle was to overwhelm all of the defenses,
using Fast-Moving PT boats.  The damage was primarily attributed to
Close-Range Cruise Missiles and Suicide boats.  What caught the Blue
Fleet was the element of Surprise, and I believe the Peninsula against them.   No one expects an enemy to hide behind the cover of Non-Combatants. 

In the case of the Reapers, they capture or destroy everything in space.  Its more likely they'll use non-combatants than the Council races, which is terrifying to imagine.

[V-rcingetorix]

BerzerkGene wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...
~snip~

I do not recall ever saying the Quarians, by themselves, turn the tide of the war. You said there were 40,000 vessels, the game disagrees. You say a freighter doesn't count as a warship. With  a giant gun on it, it does. Is a civlian a soldier? No. Is a civilian with a gun? No reason he can't be. They aren't all 'barely held together' and the Quarians pride themselves on maintaining their huge fleet. I do not recall hearing about half their ships breaking down all the time. They use second hand ships and repurpose others. They have access to the latest technology and are essentially a race of engineers.

It was about stupidity. That conversation with the dying destroyer? Bloody nonsense. "It is not a thing you can comprehend." not "Ah, my boss will tell you ina couple dozen lines at the end, totally easy to understand. Doesn't make sense, but understandable." Like i said, it was about 2 dozen ships, with regular weapons, initially it was basically pushing the reaper back. It does fire up a couple times and Traynor does mention that fact when you get back to the normandy. Its after you knock it over and make it a more focussed target(why they stop firing when it goes down is beyond me) That its less ships that fire. Maybe a dozen, because too many shots would just hit each other trying to hit such a small target.

~snip~

Of course the hades cannon destroyer doesn't have the same capabilities, its been changed into a pure anti air platform. I'm saying it is a reaper. My discussion with incinerator950 leads me to think its a customized reaper,. I even watched the scene again. The cannon itself explodes, causing a secondary explosion, the reaper makes reaper noises and dies, sending out those red reaper sparkles. You outright deny its a reaper. You never mentioned that its customised, repurposed or altered so its not the same as a destroyer, you simply say it doesn't have the same capabilities.

Is the Hades cannon actually a Reaper though?

It has a Reaper-ish shape, throws off sparks like the Destroyers on Tuchanka/Rannoch, and makes Reaper noises. Good so far (looks like a duck, walks like a duck,  quacks like a duck ). But what about its differences?

For one thing, the Hades cannon never looks down. Unlike the Reapers (by which the codex defines true Reaper ship forces as Destroyer and Sovereign class), the HC doesn't move around. It doesn't give a basso profundo treatise on its superiority, and it doesn't seem to have any anti-infantry protection. Above all, it seems to lack shields entirely.

Granted, the CAIN shouldn't move like a curveball, or (heaven forbid) a corkscrew. It should move linearly, unless there's a mass effect generator in the HC that takes a super-accelerated particle for a spin.

Solution? I think the HC is actually a separate semi-sentient mechanism, that the developers adapted from a Reaper shell. Someone was too lazy to make a new gun, so they adapted a previously existing digital shape.

On Quarians...hmm. Joker comments that "If a plan to retake the homeworld involves strapping guns to your kids' schoolbus, it might not be a good plan." I agree. Strapping Thanix cannon onto a lifeship is indeed making it a glass cannon, and wastes resources on recovery when it is (inevitably) targeted. It would be better to take the guns off and use the lifeship as a transport, or mobile factory. If I remember correctly, I don't see any lifeships in the Alliance Entry.

Geth on the other hand are not limited by any treaties and, according to the codex, have a fleet equal in size to the Turians. If the Giant Dreadnought is the only example of its type, that's still a lot of ships (over 50 dreadnoughts alone). there is no evidence suggesting the Geth didn't make more Giant Dreadnoughts, but also no evidence that they did, unfortunately.

However, they have the capacity to work 24/7, and can (post Rannoch) access all the resources of all the races in the galaxy. With their tireless efforts, the Rachni coordination, the Salarian ingenuity and Quarian resourcefulness, how could this not be a big plus? i wish there had been an inclusion of Geth forces in the Allied Entry. I looked, but didn't see any :/

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 01 août 2012 - 06:33 .

[incinerator950]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

BerzerkGene wrote...
~snip~

I do not recall ever saying the Quarians, by themselves, turn the tide of the war. You said there were 40,000 vessels, the game disagrees. You say a freighter doesn't count as a warship. With  a giant gun on it, it does. Is a civlian a soldier? No. Is a civilian with a gun? No reason he can't be. They aren't all 'barely held together' and the Quarians pride themselves on maintaining their huge fleet. I do not recall hearing about half their ships breaking down all the time. They use second hand ships and repurpose others. They have access to the latest technology and are essentially a race of engineers.

It was about stupidity. That conversation with the dying destroyer? Bloody nonsense. "It is not a thing you can comprehend." not "Ah, my boss will tell you ina couple dozen lines at the end, totally easy to understand. Doesn't make sense, but understandable." Like i said, it was about 2 dozen ships, with regular weapons, initially it was basically pushing the reaper back. It does fire up a couple times and Traynor does mention that fact when you get back to the normandy. Its after you knock it over and make it a more focussed target(why they stop firing when it goes down is beyond me) That its less ships that fire. Maybe a dozen, because too many shots would just hit each other trying to hit such a small target.

~snip~

Of course the hades cannon destroyer doesn't have the same capabilities, its been changed into a pure anti air platform. I'm saying it is a reaper. My discussion with incinerator950 leads me to think its a customized reaper,. I even watched the scene again. The cannon itself explodes, causing a secondary explosion, the reaper makes reaper noises and dies, sending out those red reaper sparkles. You outright deny its a reaper. You never mentioned that its customised, repurposed or altered so its not the same as a destroyer, you simply say it doesn't have the same capabilities.

Is the Hades cannon actually a Reaper though?

It has a Reaper-ish shape, throws off sparks like the Destroyers on Tuchanka/Rannoch, and makes Reaper noises. Good so far (looks like a duck, walks like a duck,  quacks like a duck ). But what about its differences?

For one thing, the Hades cannon never looks down. Unlike the Reapers (by which the codex defines true Reaper ship forces as Destroyer and Sovereign class), the HC doesn't move around. It doesn't give a basso profundo treatise on its superiority, and it doesn't seem to have any anti-infantry protection. Above all, it seems to lack shields entirely.

Granted, the CAIN shouldn't move like a curveball, or (heaven forbid) a corkscrew. It should move linearly, unless there's a mass effect generator in the HC that takes a super-accelerated particle for a spin.

Solution? I think the HC is actually a separate semi-sentient mechanism, that the developers adapted from a Reaper shell. Someone was too lazy to make a new gun, so they adapted a previously existing digital shape.

On Quarians...hmm. Joker comments that "If a plan to retake the homeworld involves strapping guns to your kids' schoolbus, it might not be a good plan." I agree. Strapping Thanix cannon onto a lifeship is indeed making it a glass cannon, and wastes resources on recovery when it is (inevitably) targeted. It would be better to take the guns off and use the lifeship as a transport, or mobile factory. If I remember correctly, I don't see any lifeships in the Alliance Entry.

Geth on the other hand are not limited by any treaties and, according to the codex, have a fleet equal in size to the Turians. If the Giant Dreadnought is the only example of its type, that's still a lot of ships (over 50 dreadnoughts alone). there is no evidence suggesting the Geth didn't make more Giant Dreadnoughts, but also no evidence that they did, unfortunately.

However, they have the capacity to work 24/7, and can (post Rannoch) access all the resources of all the races in the galaxy. With their tireless efforts, the Rachni coordination, the Salarian ingenuity and Quarian resourcefulness, how could this not be a big plus? i wish there had been an inclusion of Geth forces in the Allied Entry. I looked, but didn't see any :/

Never made and cut.  There was going to be a huge stint on Admiral Xen ****ing the Geth over, but they cut that out. 

Another is what Hackett said.  The Quarians are fire-support and relief for Human/Turian Colonies.  The Geth are creating new fronts to strike the Reapers on.  

[krasnoarmeets]

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

Which get cut down by Gardian Lasers.  Not to mention Reapers do fly in formation. 

Its too conventional, you want to beat the Reapers, you need to get down more.  There's more than one way to use an Asteroid, something many SW fans should be familiar with.  

Speaking of asteroids, I think the Bahak relay was a lost opportunity. What I mean is that a whole swarm of reaper forces were poised to flood into the Bahak system in order to use the Alpha relay to swarm all over the place. Had the asteroid been slammed into the relay with slightly better timing the relay nova could have taken a whole swag of reaper capital ships out with it especially given that the relay destroyed the system, including the star by all appearances. It's a great pity because Harbinger was part of that initial force. Achievement lost...

[incinerator950]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

Which get cut down by Gardian Lasers.  Not to mention Reapers do fly in formation. 

Its too conventional, you want to beat the Reapers, you need to get down more.  There's more than one way to use an Asteroid, something many SW fans should be familiar with.  

Speaking of asteroids, I think the Bahak relay was a lost opportunity. What I mean is that a whole swarm of reaper forces were poised to flood into the Bahak system in order to use the Alpha relay to swarm all over the place. Had the asteroid been slammed into the relay with slightly better timing the relay nova could have taken a whole swag of reaper capital ships out with it especially given that the relay destroyed the system, including the star by all appearances. It's a great pity because Harbinger was part of that initial force. Achievement lost...

I think it was more pressing to escape the Bahak system then perfectly time a strike.  

[krasnoarmeets]

incinerator950 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

Which get cut down by Gardian Lasers.  Not to mention Reapers do fly in formation. 

Its too conventional, you want to beat the Reapers, you need to get down more.  There's more than one way to use an Asteroid, something many SW fans should be familiar with.  

Speaking of asteroids, I think the Bahak relay was a lost opportunity. What I mean is that a whole swarm of reaper forces were poised to flood into the Bahak system in order to use the Alpha relay to swarm all over the place. Had the asteroid been slammed into the relay with slightly better timing the relay nova could have taken a whole swag of reaper capital ships out with it especially given that the relay destroyed the system, including the star by all appearances. It's a great pity because Harbinger was part of that initial force. Achievement lost...

I think it was more pressing to escape the Bahak system then perfectly time a strike.  

Which I think was a mistake. Just imagine the reapers losing a few hundred capital ships in one fell swoop including Harbinger. Epic. 

Slamming an asteroid into the Charon relay would have had the same effect. 

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 01 août 2012 - 08:44 .

[incinerator950]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

krasnoarmeets wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

I was actually thinking the exploding eezo ships would be used to knock out the oculus screens, since they like to get close. This would make life easier for the fighter mobs swarming in right behind them.

Which get cut down by Gardian Lasers.  Not to mention Reapers do fly in formation. 

Its too conventional, you want to beat the Reapers, you need to get down more.  There's more than one way to use an Asteroid, something many SW fans should be familiar with.  

Speaking of asteroids, I think the Bahak relay was a lost opportunity. What I mean is that a whole swarm of reaper forces were poised to flood into the Bahak system in order to use the Alpha relay to swarm all over the place. Had the asteroid been slammed into the relay with slightly better timing the relay nova could have taken a whole swag of reaper capital ships out with it especially given that the relay destroyed the system, including the star by all appearances. It's a great pity because Harbinger was part of that initial force. Achievement lost...

I think it was more pressing to escape the Bahak system then perfectly time a strike.  

Which I think was a mistake. Just imagine the reapers losing a few hundred capital ships in one fell swoop including Harbinger. Epic. 

Yes, which is why I brought it up several times in the months prior to the games Release.  I'm probably one of the people Bioware got tired of hearing and made a codex entry to shut up about it.  

Anyway, no, that's entirely metagame.  You weren't originally planning to activate the project, but it became a necesity when you wanted to smack the station down into a Relay and get off it.  Poor timing

[F4H bandicoot]

The asteroid into relay wouldn't kill any Reapers though, they would just FTL away. Thisidea has been ppsted numerous times, and would result in nothing.

[CerealWar]

OmegaXI wrote...

Sorry man the Crucible is the only way to defeat the, its been established in the lore and throughout the game.

Also can you please provide the link and the numbers of this military drill, aswell as how many of the boats where wiped out, and how many of these test runs failed? What were the conditions during the drill and what were outside factors to effect it.

You keep beating these drums of a convential victory but show me the numbers,plans, and proof from the game or the codex that can back of your claims. The Turians with the Largest military and Fleet backed up by the Krogans couldn't hold Pavalen.

Also once the Reapers controling or destroying the means of production how would the Races of the Galaxy beat them conventially? Play the game again and listen to the news reports on the Citidel and listen to how much ground is being lost. Theres a point in the game where over 60% of habital territory is loss or under Reaper control.

Casulaities are as high as 85% in some cases.

Sorry man convential victory is not possible not matter how much you want it to be.

Keep in mind that all of this information is presented in the final game. All pre existing lore never pointed out to why the Reapers achieved a complete victory. It wasn't written in stone that the Reapers couldn't be defeated conventionally. It was something that the writers decided. That's why discussing fictional lore is a dead end. The writers could have just as easily decided that Sovereign was the sole Reaper dreadnought who was the only one capable of entering the Milky Way and stand up to the Citadel forces. The rest would have crumbled to the combined might of a united galaxy. This would explain why the Reapers relied so much on subterfuge. Now I'm theory crafting.