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[Those Protheans]

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.
You won't survive, it is a suicide mission.
You can't beat the Reapers conventionally.


I heard it all before, WAKE UP SHEPARD!

[F4H bandicoot]

It was only a suicide mission because no one knew what was at the other end of the Omega 4 relay, and no ship had ever returned from going through. That was the basis for it being a suicide mission.

[Those Protheans]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

It was only a suicide mission because no one knew what was at the other end of the Omega 4 relay, and no ship had ever returned from going through. That was the basis for it being a suicide mission.

Not to mention facing more avdanced opponents and a ship that killed you before.

[DecCylonus]

BerzerkGene wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

A conventional victory may not be impossible, but it is very, very unlikely. The Reaper war is a war of attrition, and the Reapers hold a distinct advantage there. Even if it "only" takes four dreadnoughts or sixteen fighters to take down a Reaper dreadnought, there is no gaurantee that your forces will come through that battle intact. It is already stated that the Reapers have superior numbers. Therefore, they can afford losses more than the Citadel races. When you combine that with their superior weaponry and ability to one-shot Citadel capital ships, winning a war of attrition becomes very unlikely.

It is established in the codex that the Reaper ships have powerful point defense systems to deal with smaller ships that attack at close range. They also have the Occuli fighters. Since they have effective defenses against a fighter attack, the outcome of the battles is not gauranteed. The Reapers might win and kill all the fighters. They might lose. Or they might lose but still do a lot of damage to Citadel forces. Again, they can better absorb the losses.

The codex entries on the space battles fought with the Reapers make it clear that they do use tactics. Therefore, we can expect them to adapt to fighter swarms. The easiest way to defeat fighters is to target the carriers. Fighters aren't FTL capable, so if the carriers are destroyed the fighters can longer be used as offensive weapons. The carriers are capital ships and not easily replaced, so a concentrated effort to wipe them out would pretty much end the fighter threat. Also, in order for Citadel forces to win, that four-to-one ratio has to be maintained. Because the Reapers have superior numbers, they can concentrate their forces and deny the Citadel forces a chance to fight with the numbers in their favor. The Reapers can then force a decisive battle by attacking vital resources like major production centers with their massed fleet. The Citadel fleets must then either fight or lose the resources that allow them to keep fighting. The Reapers could also attempt to ambush Citadel forces with a massed fleet. The Citadel forces can always flee, but ships cannot instantly go to FTL when the Reapers appear. Any losses they take as they try to disengage still turn the war more in the Reapers' favor.

In short, Shepard's cycle isn't prepared to fight the Reapers in a conventional war. Unconventional tactics or superweapons are the best options.

Superior numbers in dreadnoughts, yes, in ground troops, well yeah, probably. ships in general though? No. Unless the Reapers somehow have more than several hundred thousand ships(which would mean they basically predate the creation of the milky way), they got nothing in regards to numbers.
They actually can't afford that many losses. It takes a bloody long time just to make a single reaper. Replacing their losses is not an easy thing, where it takes a fraction of the time to build a cruiser or dreadnought.

Yeah, its also stated they have longer range and better accuracy. What we see though says otherwise. As to the point defenses, they don't seem to have them. Otherwise the normandy would have been shredded while going past them.
Occuli are pieces of junk, glass cannons better suited against heavier ships than fighters.
1 Reaper takes something like a century to build. Those losses stay lost while a war is going.

Really, well all the things regarding Reaper space battles basically say that the galaxies tactics are working far better. The Asari used guerilla tactics, the Turians used trickery. The reapers just barge through, they don't have a strategy beyond "IMA FIRIN MAH LAZOR".

All well and good, but carriers are not right there in the line of fire, they hang back and resupply said fighters. To get to them you would have to go through an entire fleet(s). You're neglecting the fact that Reapers have horrible aim from range, only up close can they seem to hit anything. Unless they're harbinger, who can shoot a single person relatively easy while spamming his laser.
Again, they do not have supeior numbers in ships. You are a horrible mathematician.

While that would be the smart thing to do, its not the reaper thing to do. Having the entire Reaper fleet roll over each civilisation at a time would have been far more effective than spreading their forces thin. Especially while the politics kept the Council squabbling. Reapers and ambushing...yeah, no. The Reapers ambush exactly once per cycle, if they can't they don't seem to bother.

Actually they can. The second the crucible activates, hackett gives the order and bam, everyone is gone in under 20 seconds. Unless the Reapers had the exact location, they would be unable to effectively get them.

Initially they are unprepared. As of ME3, with the unity and if they fired hackett and had a turian general leading, or shepard, they would do far better in space warfare.

Yes unconventional tactics do work, that is certain. As for super weapons...there aren't any. The crucible is not a weapon. Its a god damn battery with a 0% success rate.

What exactly are you counting as "ships" in claiming the Citadel forces have superior numbers overall? The only way they can begin to balance out the numbers is with the Quarian Migrant Fleet, which barely counts. The Quarians have a ton of ships, but many are obsolete or converted freighters. They also lost an indeterminate number to the Geth when they tried to retake Rannoch. In short, they have very few first rate ships that could really aid in tackling a Reaper. You are also overlooking that it takes a 4 to 1 superiority in dreadnought numbers to engage the Reapers successfully. That number increases if you are relying on cruisers, frigates, or fighters. So a massive, sustainable numerical superiority is needed to win. Considering the losses they take every time they engage the Reaper fleets, I just don't see them maintaining that superiority. 

The codex says the Reapers have point defenses. You can't pick the parts of the codex you like and disregard the ones you don't to make your argument. How many fighters with Thanix Cannons do we see in cutscenes? The Occuli did a lot of damage to the SR-2 in ME2. Even if they are junk, they can do damage, especially if ignored. The suggested tactic of fighters ignoring them to focus on the capital ships is a recipe for losses.

The Asari and the Turians both lost their battles. So much for tactics. Kudos to the Turians for taking Palaven back. The Reapers would just hit them with a larger force eventually though.

You're ignoring the fact that the Thannix Cannon is a close range weapon. That means that the Citadel Forces have to get close, where the Reapers' aim is effective, according to you. You're also ignoring that the Reapers have no problem charging through the Citadel forces to get to their objective. If they want to take out the carriers, they will just run over any cruiser or dreadnought in the way. And I'm not a horrible mathematician. I just have a different opinion than you of what the game says the numbes of both sides are.

Again, the codex disagrees with you. The Reapers used tactics against the Turians and Asari. Even if they rely on brute force to get things done in a space battle, they clearly understand the concept of hitting organics where it hurts. They can still use a massed force to begin hitting population and production centers, forcing a deceisive battle. They clearly understand the concept of massed force, because they moved the Citadel to Earth once they learned of the Crucible plot. The Reapers also clearly understand ambush tactics, because the Collectors employed them.

[3DandBeyond]

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.
You won't survive, it is a suicide mission.
You can't beat the Reapers conventionally.


I heard it all before, WAKE UP SHEPARD!

I think people are being told to speculate over endings, but not to speculate over what could have happened in the story itself. 

The whole galaxy without any detractors is chasing after this big battery in space-that could be a galaxy destroying bomb for all they know.

But that's not too contrived.

Unconventional methods might have been created in the story to help defeat the weapons.  Salarian STG (because of Mordin) might have believed the reapers were coming and began working on new tech.  Maybe they could have developed stealth tech that was not too difficult to install on all Dreadnoughts.  Heck, the crucible was super easy to build-why couldn't they have just said that innovative methods were developed that streamlined creating new weaponry/ships/whatever?

What if Mordin had examined the data collected from the collector base (the data no one every used) and all that he learned about the collectors and the human reaper and reverse engineered swarmers?  Or developed a weapon the created a burrowing high temperature particle that could get past kinetic barriers and destroy the organic part of a reaper.  TIM had some type of weapon that could kill all the collectors but leave the base intact.  What if geth were given some modified weaponry (newly developed and yes, contrived) that they could take with them and try to board reaper ships.  These weapons might also kill the organic part of the reaper or maybe geth might also try to hack their programming.  Maybe they could have inserted a computer bug that wouldn't shut down the reapers but might keep their processes on some "busy" infinite loop.

I know the writers set it up to be impossible, but ME was never a story about accepting the impossible and not at least trying to do something. 

What this game has done is created many sides to issues.  One issue is the idea of how people should react when faced with "impossible" odds.  The writers say admit it's impossible and hope for something to fall out of the sky and help you.  And a lot of people think this is just great.  A lot of people say that's not how people would really react to it.  They say people would recognize the odds are against them and still try, not just instantly give up and embrace some idea without knowing why.  Posters tell others who say that people would still want to fight even if it is just conventionally to get real.  Ok, the crucible and the kid are real?  The magic choices are now reality?  And using guns, even if futile is not something people would really do?

The crucible would be more believable if someone somewhere had protested everyone making it and if they were more certain of what it did other than creating and storing a lot of energy.  A bomb creates a lot of energy.  But so does a power plant.  They do different things.  I'd like to know if I'm making something if it's a bomb or a power plant.  I'd like to know what it would do.

Why is it here that there should be this level of argument about this?  The human spirit is at its best when it refuses to accept something is impossible.  The heart won't accept it even if the brain knows it.  That's where guts come from.  Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread and they do it only with their hearts.  Where's the heart in ME3?  It's ripped right out because the writers kept saying something is impossible and players chose to believe that and thought that was cool.

[zeypher]

eh salarians have stealth dreadnaughts. read the codex for the salarian first fleet i think

[The Heretic of Time]

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Those Protheans wrote...  

You won't survive, it is a suicide mission.

No one ever said we won't survive, only that we most likely won't survive.

won't survive =/= most likely won't survive

Those Protheans wrote...   

You can't beat the Reapers conventionally.

Indeed. I don't like it either, but that's what you get when you establish the nemesis as a near-god-like force that both outnumbers and outguns us, not to mention their tech is more advanced and they do not rely on planetary resources as we do.

Those Protheans wrote...   

I heard it all before, WAKE UP SHEPARD!

No you didn't. WAKE UP, you're indoctrinated by the IT cult. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 août 2012 - 02:15 .

[3DandBeyond]

zeypher wrote...

eh salarians have stealth dreadnaughts. read the codex for the salarian first fleet i think

I just figured maybe they could find a way to make the production faster.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 01 août 2012 - 02:35 .

[3DandBeyond]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote... 
You won't survive, it is a suicide mission.

No one ever said we won't survive, only that we most likely won't survive.

won't survive =/= most likely won't survive



/quote]

It's called a suicide mission because you are not expected to come back.  You are walking into your suicide.  And when you get through the relay you see what that means because a thousand years' worth of ships that attempted it are there before you.  You will also face the ship that destroyed the first Normandy and killed you before. 

If that whole mission does not mean it's impossible then what does?  Oh that's right, impossible missions that need the crucible and the magical kid.

[Those Protheans]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Modifié par Those Protheans, 01 août 2012 - 03:19 .

[3DandBeyond]

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Sovereign even said it was impossible to know them-they are unknowable.  But in ME3 you become best friends with their little bro, er daddy.

[Baldrick67]

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

The add for Mass Effect has Anderson calling Saren and his geth forces "unstoppable".

[The Heretic of Time]

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

[Those Protheans]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Saren turned out to be a good guy so you should have listened to him.
And Sovereign is also apart of something you can trust or trust in the end.

[The Heretic of Time]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Sovereign even said it was impossible to know them-they are unknowable.  But in ME3 you become best friends with their little bro, er daddy.

Yeah, that's just a good example of bad writing. If you're going to introduce an unknowable, unstoppable and undefeatable (conventionally) antagonist in your series, you need to be damn sure you know what you're doing as a writer. A story with an enemy like that needs planning and carefully thinking ahead how you're going to handle the enemy and it's impact on the story.

It is clear that the writers of Mass Effect did not possess the talent to pull it off. They did not know how to handle the reapers and thus the reapers got reduced to a bunch of mass-produced living ships who obediently serve an moronic A.I. that got stuck in his own silly "solution". That's what you get when you don't plan a story like this ahead.

[The Heretic of Time]

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Saren turned out to be a good guy so you should have listened to him.
And Sovereign is also apart of something you can trust or trust in the end.

LMAO, Saren never was the good guy you silly.  Have you ever read the Mass Effect books? No? You should. Read Mass Effect Revelation and see if you still think of Saren as a "good guy".

But good or not, no matter how you look at it, Saren is still your antagonist and you generally don't listen to your antagonist when he tries to discourage you. Trusting your antagonist is generally not a good idea you know, just saying. 

And Sovereign being part of something you can trust? You're talking about robo-Saren? So you're saing robo-Saren is something we can trust?  You're trolling me or something? 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 août 2012 - 03:48 .

[Those Protheans]

I don't need to read it, Shepard did bad things too.
They're alike.

[The Heretic of Time]

Those Protheans wrote...

I don't need to read it, Shepard did bad things too.
They're alike.

No, they're not alike. I dare say TIM and Saren are more alike than Shepard and Saren are. But you wouldn't know, because you didn't read the books.


But whether you do bad things or not doesn't matter. Shepard is the protagonist, he's the hero, no matter if he's paragon or renegade. Saren is the antagonist, the badguy, no matter if he's paragon or renegade (Saren is definately renegade though).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[ZombieJohn84]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

Seriously, this was a video game where anything is possible.  All the writers have to do is imagine it and write it.

I think it's really stupid to just say, "Oh there was no other way it could have been done."

You really think that?  Your lack of faith in the power of fiction is mind-blowing.

[Uncle Jo]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Anderson was all for unite all the forces of the galaxy. No one said that conventional victory was impossible. Not even the Council. Only Hackett. Never seen such a defaitist.
Anyways what Hackett said doesn't matter, the plot was built around the Crucible, so the writers are not retarded enough, to allow someone in game to mention a possiblity of a conventional victory.


@incinerator950
Could the Fall of Earth be compared to the defeat of France in WWII (Blitzkrieg on full scale)?
The Alliance was poorly prepared and commanded (I still can't believe that a single Destroyer took out the entire Third Fleet), attacked where it wasn't expected, overwhelmed, bypassed (Terra Nova and Eden Prime) its communications and supply lines rapidly destroyed, cutting the fleets from each other and from Earth, forcing Hackett to sacrifice the 2nd fleet to allow the 3rd and 5th Fleet to escape (Dunkirk?).

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 01 août 2012 - 04:12 .

[CTM1]

Actually, ZombieJohn84, I think what Taboo was getting at was to accept the writers' logic, because we have to. As much of a bitter pill it might be for people, they're not going to change what they wrote. Therefore, the logic that governs it must be accepted: mainly, that conventional victory against the Reapers is impossible. If not, you're better off writing fanfiction, as many others have done. The Extended Cut is the only official revision we're getting on anything that governs the game's main plot.

Effort would be better spent arguing why it's impossible: to help explain why the characters came to that conclusion, or why everyone (we see) seems to accepts that logic unconditionally. (We have the Codex, but the Codex is the Codex, not the game's narrative.) Someone earlier mentioned that people ought to have been protesting the Crucible's construction, which is something I actually agree with. Something that massive, requiring galaxy-wide cooperation, to defeat a threat many previously had no clue about, ought to have polarizing opinions. We should have at least heard something about it, if not on the news (less likely given that the galaxy's militaries are probably keeping a tight lid on the project) than via certain characters confronting Shepard. Bioware's normally been good about exploring ideas from multiple angles before, so it's not out of the question to think about. Perhaps in future DLC we'll see some of that.

I'd also been happier seeing characters working on the Crucible being less than thrilled having to do so, or expressing distaste on working on something of unknown design and unknown function, and must only be guessed at. People tend to have problems with something like that. People like to know things. Some ought to be grumpier about it, at least. And some--definitely in the military, I'd expect--ought to be screaming at the waste in resources. Like I said, to those who actually know about the thing, opinions on it ought to be divided. (I can only imagine what Rear Admiral Mikhailovich thinks of it, assuming he's still around, heh.)

Modifié par CTM1, 01 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[dreman9999]

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

No. They both said you can't stop the reapers.

[dreman9999]

ZombieJohn84 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

Seriously, this was a video game where anything is possible.  All the writers have to do is imagine it and write it.

I think it's really stupid to just say, "Oh there was no other way it could have been done."

You really think that?  Your lack of faith in the power of fiction is mind-blowing.

We the writers made it not possible. Deal wit it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 août 2012 - 04:34 .

[dreman9999]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Saren turned out to be a good guy so you should have listened to him.
And Sovereign is also apart of something you can trust or trust in the end.

LMAO, Saren never was the good guy you silly.  Have you ever read the Mass Effect books? No? You should. Read Mass Effect Revelation and see if you still think of Saren as a "good guy".

But good or not, no matter how you look at it, Saren is still your antagonist and you generally don't listen to your antagonist when he tries to discourage you. Trusting your antagonist is generally not a good idea you know, just saying. 

And Sovereign being part of something you can trust? You're talking about robo-Saren? So you're saing robo-Saren is something we can trust?  You're trolling me or something? 

I read the book and still don't see him as a bad guy. Ruthless, but not bad. He's just a guy who would do anything it takes to maintain order.

[dreman9999]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Sovereign even said it was impossible to know them-they are unknowable.  But in ME3 you become best friends with their little bro, er daddy.

Yeah, that's just a good example of bad writing. If you're going to introduce an unknowable, unstoppable and undefeatable (conventionally) antagonist in your series, you need to be damn sure you know what you're doing as a writer. A story with an enemy like that needs planning and carefully thinking ahead how you're going to handle the enemy and it's impact on the story.

It is clear that the writers of Mass Effect did not possess the talent to pull it off. They did not know how to handle the reapers and thus the reapers got reduced to a bunch of mass-produced living ships who obediently serve an moronic A.I. that got stuck in his own silly "solution". That's what you get when you don't plan a story like this ahead.

The catalyst is the reapers. They're a concessus. This was build up from the intro of legion.

Modifié par dreman9999, 01 août 2012 - 04:36 .