1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Those Protheans wrote...

You can't stop Saren and the Geth.

No one ever said that we can't stop Saren.

Saren implied it. 
So did Sovereign.

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Saren turned out to be a good guy so you should have listened to him.
And Sovereign is also apart of something you can trust or trust in the end.

LMAO, Saren never was the good guy you silly.  Have you ever read the Mass Effect books? No? You should. Read Mass Effect Revelation and see if you still think of Saren as a "good guy".

But good or not, no matter how you look at it, Saren is still your antagonist and you generally don't listen to your antagonist when he tries to discourage you. Trusting your antagonist is generally not a good idea you know, just saying. 

And Sovereign being part of something you can trust? You're talking about robo-Saren? So you're saing robo-Saren is something we can trust?  You're trolling me or something? 

I read the book and still don't see him as a bad guy. Ruthless, but not bad. He's just a guy who would do anything it takes to maintain order.

he was actually allowing personal predjudices to cloud his judgement and drive wedges between the council and Alliance, considered torturing innocent civillians and chose not to simply because the police would probably kill him, and concealed a dangerous AI from the council because it could be used to bring himself more power. not exactly someone you want on your team.

[billzo]

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Sovereign even said it was impossible to know them-they are unknowable.  But in ME3 you become best friends with their little bro, er daddy.

Yeah, that's just a good example of bad writing. If you're going to introduce an unknowable, unstoppable and undefeatable (conventionally) antagonist in your series, you need to be damn sure you know what you're doing as a writer. A story with an enemy like that needs planning and carefully thinking ahead how you're going to handle the enemy and it's impact on the story.

It is clear that the writers of Mass Effect did not possess the talent to pull it off. They did not know how to handle the reapers and thus the reapers got reduced to a bunch of mass-produced living ships who obediently serve an moronic A.I. that got stuck in his own silly "solution". That's what you get when you don't plan a story like this ahead.

The catalyst is the reapers. They're a concessus. This was build up from the intro of legion.

No it wasn't.  The geth were interdependent and Legion says the reapers are independent just as Sovereign does.  And gee, who would know more about it, Legion or Sovereign?  And Legion agrees with Sovereign.

The geth-interdependent-they are in many ways one, dependent on each other at least within a hub.  They form a consensus on everything.
The reapers according to Sovereign and Legion-independent, they are individuals with different "minds".

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 01 août 2012 - 05:57 .

[3DandBeyond]

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"

Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.

[ZombieJohn84]

3DandBeyond wrote...

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"

Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.

That's not what he said to do at all.

But by all means, have some more kool-aide.

[3DandBeyond]

ZombieJohn84 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"

Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.

That's not what he said to do at all.

But by all means, have some more kool-aide.

I was in no way criticizing him.  I was saying that the projectile will keep going until it hits something, which was what the instructor was talking about in ME2.  I was actually saying it could make some sense that if a reaper is kept at a distance you could shoot at it and still hit it with full force.  I said it wrong, but thanks for getting nasty before trying to understand what I was saying. 

As to his first statement I got this mental image of one ship being able to take down a reaper if the ship was nimble enough and in stealth mode.  Shoot, pivot, re-target, and repeat.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

ZombieJohn84 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"

Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.

That's not what he said to do at all.

But by all means, have some more kool-aide.

I was in no way criticizing him.  I was saying that the projectile will keep going until it hits something, which was what the instructor was talking about in ME2.  I was actually saying it could make some sense that if a reaper is kept at a distance you could shoot at it and still hit it with full force.  I said it wrong, but thanks for getting nasty before trying to understand what I was saying. 

As to his first statement I got this mental image of one ship being able to take down a reaper if the ship was nimble enough and in stealth mode.  Shoot, pivot, re-target, and repeat.

once the projectile impacted the reapers shields, they'd know where it came from and probably be able to construct a grid that would locate the firing ship. This would happen probably at light speed,maybe faster, as we don't know for sure how powerful their defense computers are?  It would be just a matter of time, seconds probably, before a lucky shot would find the culprit target.

[3DandBeyond]

Wayning_Star wrote...

once the projectile impacted the reapers shields, they'd know where it came from and probably be able to construct a grid that would locate the firing ship. This would happen probably at light speed,maybe faster, as we don't know for sure how powerful their defense computers are?  It would be just a matter of time, seconds probably, before a lucky shot would find the culprit target.

No disrespect to you but I think much of this was said a bit jokingly and not as a real attempt because reapers are faster than other ships but only maybe not the Normandy.

The problem is because we don't even know what we don't know everything is conjecture.  And it's a bit hard to make some generlization about certainty and things being impossible if you are merely extrapolating what you think you know--not you personally, but everyone.  It left room to speculate and left room for interesting and innovative things to happen and then it was all dumped and the word impossible became canon.

[incinerator950]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Of course they did, they're the badguys!

If you were the badguy, would you say: "Well, you COULD stop me, if you did this and that."? NO! Of course you're not going to say that! You're going to smacktalk to your opponent to demotive him. You're going to tell him that he can't stop you, not matter what. That's what villains do.

Seriously, whatever Saren and Sovereign said doesn't matter. What the peopel you trust say matters. And the people you trust didn't doubt your chances against Saren. The people you trust believed in you when you said you could pull off the suicide mission.

The people you trust also said you can't defeat the reapers conventionally.

Anderson was all for unite all the forces of the galaxy. No one said that conventional victory was impossible. Not even the Council. Only Hackett. Never seen such a defaitist.
Anyways what Hackett said doesn't matter, the plot was built around the Crucible, so the writers are not retarded enough, to allow someone in game to mention a possiblity of a conventional victory.


@incinerator950
Could the Fall of Earth be compared to the defeat of France in WWII (Blitzkrieg on full scale)?
The Alliance was poorly prepared and commanded (I still can't believe that a single Destroyer took out the entire Third Fleet), attacked where it wasn't expected, overwhelmed, bypassed (Terra Nova and Eden Prime) its communications and supply lines rapidly destroyed, cutting the fleets from each other and from Earth, forcing Hackett to sacrifice the 2nd fleet to allow the 3rd and 5th Fleet to escape (Dunkirk?).

Yes, but on a worse scale.  The French were capable of holding the Germans off, but were defeated by communication and tactics.  The Reapers literally steamrolled over the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Fleets.  The 1st Fleet was able to warn the 4th over Earth, but that preperation obviously didn't help a single Fleet against an amassed charging Reaper herd. 

It took 12 Capitals and there Escorts to dislodge the Alliance fleet at Arcturus.  Preperation might have let them hold out, but the Reapers have a tendency to charge out of the Relay.  In ME, Offense is better than Defense unless a large circumstantial advantage is present. 

[Uncle Jo]

incinerator950 wrote...


Yes, but on a worse scale.  The French were capable of holding the Germans off, but were defeated by communication and tactics.  The Reapers literally steamrolled over the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Fleets.  The 1st Fleet was able to warn the 4th over Earth, but that preperation obviously didn't help a single Fleet against an amassed charging Reaper herd. 

It took 12 Capitals and there Escorts to dislodge the Alliance fleet at Arcturus.  Preperation might have let them hold out, but the Reapers have a tendency to charge out of the Relay.  In ME, Offense is better than Defense unless a large circumstantial advantage is present. 

Thank you very much for the explanation. It's true that the tanks of the french army could match the german's if not better (B1-bis) but were used with poor tactics, which isn't the case in the Reaper war.

Do you honestly believe that three years more preparation would have changed anything to the outcome?
The Reapers are also the most vulnerable when they land. Their prime target are populations. Is there anything we could take advantage of?

[The Heretic of Time]

dreman9999 wrote...
I read the book and still don't see him as a bad guy. Ruthless, but not bad. He's just a guy who would do anything it takes to maintain order.

Ah, so someone who actually enjoys torturing civillians and doesn't mind needlessly blowing up constructs resulting in countless of civilians casualties is someone who tries to maintain order? HAH, that's a good one! Nevermind the fact that Saren desperately wanted to get the superb alien war-ship Sovereign in his hands with the goal to seize power for the turians and establish a new galactic order where the turians rule over the galaxy, in which he himself would be the turian leader of the new order, a new order in which humanity has no place in it. Yeah, that's definitely not a bad guy! 

[F4H bandicoot]

Uncle Jo wrote...


Do you honestly believe that three years more preparation would have changed anything to the outcome?
The Reapers are also the most vulnerable when they land. Their prime target are populations. Is there anything we could take advantage of?

I doubt it, according to EDI, they aren't even operating at full capacity, if they wanted to go to war with us, I'm sure they could obliterate us in moments.

[ChickenDownUnder]

I'm in favor of equipping Thresher Maws with Thanix Cannons and tossing those at the Reapers.

FLAWLESS VICTORY

...though can imagine this conversation:

"We have these guns that can hurt Reapers! Let's put this technology on as many ships as possible!"

"No way, man. Our best course of action is to spend time building this machine that we have no idea what it will do."

"But... surely all those gathered scientists and forces we spent running around collecting could design even more efficient Thanix--"

"Somebody told me conventional victory wasn't possible so it must be true."

"Mystery machine it is!"

[The Heretic of Time]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

I'm in favor of equipping Thresher Maws with Thanix Cannons and tossing those at the Reapers.

FLAWLESS VICTORY

...though can imagine this conversation:

"We have these guns that can hurt Reapers! Let's put this technology on as many ships as possible!"

"No way, man. Our best course of action is to spend time building this machine that we have no idea what it will do."

"But... surely all those gathered scientists and forces we spent running around collecting could design even more efficient Thanix--"

"Somebody told me conventional victory wasn't possible so it must be true."

"Mystery machine it is!"

LOL this comment makes it all the more obvious how f*cking horrible the plot of ME3 is. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 02 août 2012 - 12:16 .

[Krunjar]

I see alot of thanix this thanix that arguments. Yes it's true the thanix canon is based of reaper technology. This does not automatically make it even nearly as good as the original. I am sorry but it doesn't. Since there is no way to directly compare the actual strength of a thanix cannon relative to a reaper's guns or armour. The only thing we have to go on is what actually happens in the game. And in the game if thanix cannons could have won us the war you can bet they would have been everywhere. You just have to assume that they couldn't. Also remember there is no guarantee that even a reapers main gun could pierce another reapers armor. The reapers as they stand are tools for harvesting. It makes sense that they would have silly armor and enough firepower to overcome any local resistance but no more. As has been mentioned they are not actually at war with us from their perspective. If they where its possible they might bring weapons to bear that make their red beams of doom look like party poppers.

[SC_Jorgie]

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

Ultimately, that's the whole point of ME. We are facing extinction against a force we cannot defeat. Anything that would allow a conventional victory cheapens that entire premise and makes galactic chumps of the races that came before us.

Our only chance is to place hope in a device we don't understand. We have built it, but have no idea what will happen when we turn it on. Why does it seem that so many would be happy to have an ending that lets you fight past a massive force, connect the last piece of the crucible against all odds, and then activate it to see the reapers destroyed - and consider that a great ending. Even if it turned out that an unexpected side effect was the destruction of the Geth. Yet, when we are given choices of how this device is to deliver us, it is somehow a poor ending.

[incinerator950]

Uncle Jo wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Yes, but on a worse scale.  The French were capable of holding the Germans off, but were defeated by communication and tactics.  The Reapers literally steamrolled over the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Fleets.  The 1st Fleet was able to warn the 4th over Earth, but that preperation obviously didn't help a single Fleet against an amassed charging Reaper herd. 

It took 12 Capitals and there Escorts to dislodge the Alliance fleet at Arcturus.  Preperation might have let them hold out, but the Reapers have a tendency to charge out of the Relay.  In ME, Offense is better than Defense unless a large circumstantial advantage is present. 

Thank you very much for the explanation. It's true that the tanks of the french army could match the german's if not better (B1-bis) but were used with poor tactics, which isn't the case in the Reaper war.

Do you honestly believe that three years more preparation would have changed anything to the outcome?
The Reapers are also the most vulnerable when they land. Their prime target are populations. Is there anything we could take advantage of?

Completely depends, the story contrives itself.  Preparation would help, but a War of attrition has so many variables.  The Reapers limits is their harvest, if they wanted to wipe us out, it would be a lot faster.  Time is the largest resource factor, but how you get it can either save lives, or completely break your order of Battle.  Like the Prothean Empire. 

There would have to be several factors, unique and non-standard energy weapons, weapons that bypass or overload Barriers more, more efficient or better ships that can be produced on a long scale war.  Managing volunteers and enlistment as well as logistics for entirely different species and vessels.  Arming civilian and mining ships knowing full well the Reapers engage and shoot anything regardless if its a threat. 

You also have to count in the Reaper tactical processes, how well they adapt, where they are, how, when, and where they go next.  A lot of the assumptions is made in the vacuum that the Reapers will not adjust their tactics accordingly.  

Also, what happens if Reapers defect?  What happens if a quarter of the Turian population surrenders and turns on you?  What happens if Wrex/Wreave is killed and the Krogan scatter or follow an indoctrinated figurehead? 

Terrain is another problem, Space.  Space Combat is mostly fought in the blank Void.  Very rarely you will fight a war amidst an Asteroid Field.  All of your population centers are stuck in easy to reach, open spaces.  The worst is wanting to move a colony, Tera Nova would require a fleet the size of the Quarian Migrant Flotilla.  Fighting over planets is almost always one sided, and favors Aggressive Pre-emptive strikes and Offense over Defensive formations. 

So in reality, Conventional War may not be a possibility.  If it is though, and they wrote it, I wouldn't want anymore instant wins like ME1 or Gears3.  

Modifié par incinerator950, 02 août 2012 - 12:52 .

[dbt-kenny]

he has a point if you lot and lot and lot of fast ships with thanix cannons, then they could take them out befoer they where all destoryed
they question is can we build lots and lots of them. no we cannot the repaer would take out any place making before we had the need mass to win.

[ChickenDownUnder]

If we could build a huge, complicated device off of blueprints that were basically written in a foreign language without being detected, don't see why we couldn't have built fast ships with cannons assembly line style.

Like an underground railroad where instead of people it'd be moving around ship parts. We are, after all, running around most of the game to unite various races. Instead of doing so just to 'Take back Earth!!" it'd be uniting to pool together resources to make those fast ships with more efficient cannons.

And I for one would feel less like Shepard went full douche in asking all of these alien races to given some of their people to me so that I can defend Earth and build a mystery machine, when their own worlds are falling apart.

[incinerator950]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

If we could build a huge, complicated device off of blueprints that were basically written in a foreign language without being detected, don't see why we couldn't have built fast ships with cannons assembly line style.

Like an underground railroad where instead of people it'd be moving around ship parts. We are, after all, running around most of the game to unite various races. Instead of doing so just to 'Take back Earth!!" it'd be uniting to pool together resources to make those fast ships with more efficient cannons.

And I for one would feel less like Shepard went full douche in asking all of these alien races to given some of their people to me so that I can defend Earth and build a mystery machine, when their own worlds are falling apart.

Except the drawing plan you used was you had a way to solve everyone's problems while fullfilling the normal role of do a quest for someone, get support.  People would be more reluctant to just blindly follow you to Earth, or a single species world. 

The problem is Reapers are faster than anything in the Alliance.  They may have to reduce their mass, but their firing solutions are fully capable of adapting to scuttling tactics to skirt them with their own weapons technology.  

The problem with ops example is that it relied more on the initial element of surprise and near-equal technology to overwhelm the enemy fleet.  The only time we ever get an advantage in this series is through overwelming firepower, numbers, or plot armor/plot progression. (Thresher, or a Relay exploding)

[Jere85]

Honest and simple question, but where do people get that reapers have millions of ships? All i heard was hundreds in me1, where are you all getting your numbers?

[Skirata129]

SC_Jorgie wrote...

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

They were also caught in the initial trap that prevented their militaries from unifying and fighting in concert, or from resupplying factories and such. The fact that they lasted 300 years fighting only in small, isolated and poorly supplied groups is actually a big argument for conventional victory.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

They were also caught in the initial trap that prevented their militaries from unifying and fighting in concert, or from resupplying factories and such. The fact that they lasted 300 years fighting only in small, isolated and poorly supplied groups is actually a big argument for conventional victory.

Well, frankly its obvious that the codex specifically states conventional victory is possible.  Its just how the story has been written out. 

[Skirata129]

also edited OP to include civilian craft idea.

[XFeroxX]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And I'm telling you you can't touch them.

At all.

That's the point.

There is nothing you can do.

Only the combined force of four Dreadnoughts will really do anything and that's difficult to do.

Bioware has stated that it is impossible without using the Crucible.

Accept this and move on.

Not true, Codex says 4 will do the job easily, 3 will have problems, and 2 are a match. One Turian Dreadnought was able to FTL jump into a position directly behind a Capital ship and due to its smaller size than the Reaper, it could outmanouver it and it destroyed them during the battle for Palaven. Look up the 15 Minute Plan. Its possible with even 1, but risky and very hard to do.

That being said, read this guy's post, it makes sense. Now there isn't enough time to build all this and it would take extreme casualties but in theory could work against smaller number of Reapers. But when do theories ever go as planned in battle?