1098 réponses à ce sujet

[ChickenDownUnder]

incinerator950 wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

If we could build a huge, complicated device off of blueprints that were basically written in a foreign language without being detected, don't see why we couldn't have built fast ships with cannons assembly line style.

Like an underground railroad where instead of people it'd be moving around ship parts. We are, after all, running around most of the game to unite various races. Instead of doing so just to 'Take back Earth!!" it'd be uniting to pool together resources to make those fast ships with more efficient cannons.

And I for one would feel less like Shepard went full douche in asking all of these alien races to given some of their people to me so that I can defend Earth and build a mystery machine, when their own worlds are falling apart.

Except the drawing plan you used was you had a way to solve everyone's problems while fullfilling the normal role of do a quest for someone, get support.  People would be more reluctant to just blindly follow you to Earth, or a single species world. 

The problem is Reapers are faster than anything in the Alliance.  They may have to reduce their mass, but their firing solutions are fully capable of adapting to scuttling tactics to skirt them with their own weapons technology.  

The problem with ops example is that it relied more on the initial element of surprise and near-equal technology to overwhelm the enemy fleet.  The only time we ever get an advantage in this series is through overwelming firepower, numbers, or plot armor/plot progression. (Thresher, or a Relay exploding)

Not quite sure what you are saying. If I am understanding your English correctly, you are basically half-agreeing with me.

Unless you metagame, Shepard had no idea--or anyone else really, for that matter--if the Citadel WAS going to actually solve everybody's problems, especially since on top of that there was a missing component that even less was known of; the Catalyst.

Hell, there actually wouldn't be much of a difference in Shepard trying to rescue that Turian official, recruit the Krogan/Salarians, the Asari eventually revealing hidden Prothean info, stopping Cerberus, and so on.

Turian Councelor: "You want our knowledge on how we've been able to improve Thanix Cannons and create more ships than anybody else? First I need you to rescue the Primarch, then we'll talk about working together."

General Adrien Victus: "If we're really going to pool all of our collective knowledge to make faster and better ships, then we're actually going to need the Krogans. Before the Genophage they were capable of launching astroids and overwhelming the other races--we need that now. They may not have been subtle, but we'll need a front to hide this mass producing of fast ships with Thanix."

Wrex/Wreav: "I kept those old transcripts of past battles around... but the Krogans wont help unless the Genophage is cured."

Salarian Dalatras(sp?): "Don't cure the Genophage. You wont need a crude front with the speed and intellegence of the greatest Salarian scientists improving on these ships and guns."

Hackett: "We haven't heard from the Quarians for some time. If any race knows how to scrape together parts for ships in secret, it would be them. Go recruit them Shepard."

I can do this all day.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

also edited OP to include civilian craft idea.

I would rather save our Warp Torpedos and Thanix Cannons for specialized vessels that can best use them.  Not suicide ships that may become redundant after the first or third battle. 

[Skirata129]

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

also edited OP to include civilian craft idea.

I would rather save our Warp Torpedos and Thanix Cannons for specialized vessels that can best use them.  Not suicide ships that may become redundant after the first or third battle. 

it would be more of a way to get ships into the field as quickly as possible. Requisitioning civilian sporting craft would allow Thanix tech to be deployed effectively within weeks, during which time the military industrial sector could be converted to producing as many fast frigates and fighters armed with Thanix weaponry as possible.

[SC_Jorgie]

Skirata129 wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

They were also caught in the initial trap that prevented their militaries from unifying and fighting in concert, or from resupplying factories and such. The fact that they lasted 300 years fighting only in small, isolated and poorly supplied groups is actually a big argument for conventional victory.

Avoiding the initial Citadel trap is a real difference this time around. One that clearly impacts the breaking of the cycle. That by itself, however, does not allow a conventional victory. The galaxy does not start the war with sufficient forces to defeat the reapers. If all species combined their forces, they could form a fleet strong enough to defeat a portion of the reaper force, possibly even a significant portion, but at the cost of the defense of their homeworlds and colonies. Yes, they could try to use the relays to react to reaper presence, but the reapers can do the same thing to mass their forces in response. To win a conventional war you must either be able to attack with overwhelming force (advantage reapers) or win a war of attrition (also advantage reapers). To replace our forces we need resources - workers (and food/shelter for them), factories and raw materials. The reapers can deny us any of those resources. We ourselves are the resources for the reapers and their modified soldiers. So, they simultaneously deny us resouces and gain strength themselves. 

Clever tactics cannot win this war because it is statistically inconceivable that any tactic we might try is something they haven't defeated before. After a billion years of these extinction cycles they have faced and defeated every possible combination of weapon technology and tactics that their culling cycle have allowed a civilization time to devise. To think that ours is somehow special because of Shepard is nothing beyond the height of hubris. Even the existence of the Crucible is only the result of a perpetually evolving design handed along from cycle to cycle, though where the original thought for its design or the existence of the Catalyst might be an interesting topic.

It took 300 years to completely destroy the Protheans because they harvested or killed every last one of them. They were thorough. It would probably take as long to do the same to all of the current species as well.

[Skirata129]

SC_Jorgie wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

They were also caught in the initial trap that prevented their militaries from unifying and fighting in concert, or from resupplying factories and such. The fact that they lasted 300 years fighting only in small, isolated and poorly supplied groups is actually a big argument for conventional victory.

Avoiding the initial Citadel trap is a real difference this time around. One that clearly impacts the breaking of the cycle. That by itself, however, does not allow a conventional victory. The galaxy does not start the war with sufficient forces to defeat the reapers. If all species combined their forces, they could form a fleet strong enough to defeat a portion of the reaper force, possibly even a significant portion, but at the cost of the defense of their homeworlds and colonies. Yes, they could try to use the relays to react to reaper presence, but the reapers can do the same thing to mass their forces in response. To win a conventional war you must either be able to attack with overwhelming force (advantage reapers) or win a war of attrition (also advantage reapers). To replace our forces we need resources - workers (and food/shelter for them), factories and raw materials. The reapers can deny us any of those resources. We ourselves are the resources for the reapers and their modified soldiers. So, they simultaneously deny us resouces and gain strength themselves. 

Clever tactics cannot win this war because it is statistically inconceivable that any tactic we might try is something they haven't defeated before. After a billion years of these extinction cycles they have faced and defeated every possible combination of weapon technology and tactics that their culling cycle have allowed a civilization time to devise. To think that ours is somehow special because of Shepard is nothing beyond the height of hubris. Even the existence of the Crucible is only the result of a perpetually evolving design handed along from cycle to cycle, though where the original thought for its design or the existence of the Catalyst might be an interesting topic.

It took 300 years to completely destroy the Protheans because they harvested or killed every last one of them. They were thorough. It would probably take as long to do the same to all of the current species as well.

but any tactics they faced before were the work of a divided galaxy versus a unified one. That's like claiming that because another smaller country could conceivable defeat the USA if all branches of the military were isolated from one another and unable to cooperate, they could also easily defeat them as a whole.

[incinerator950]

Skirata129 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

also edited OP to include civilian craft idea.

I would rather save our Warp Torpedos and Thanix Cannons for specialized vessels that can best use them.  Not suicide ships that may become redundant after the first or third battle. 

it would be more of a way to get ships into the field as quickly as possible. Requisitioning civilian sporting craft would allow Thanix tech to be deployed effectively within weeks, during which time the military industrial sector could be converted to producing as many fast frigates and fighters armed with Thanix weaponry as possible.

Yet the majority of our own warships still don't have them.  Although they can be passed to the Geth.  I'd rather have suicide ships with suicide munitions, not powerhouses that are vital.  Non-combatant ships logically needed to be upgraded to match speeds.

[Skirata129]

incinerator950 wrote...
Non-combatant ships logically needed to be upgraded to match speeds.

Please clarify?

[SC_Jorgie]

Skirata129 wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

The biggest single negative against a conventional victory is simply that no species has ever succeeded. There is no reason within the game to think that we now have any military capability that is superior to that of any other species that were harvested by the reapers. Consider the protheans. They are portrayed as a militaristic, expansionist empire, with technology that at least rivaled our own and may have surpassed it. They lasted for 300 years against the reapers. But still lost.

They were also caught in the initial trap that prevented their militaries from unifying and fighting in concert, or from resupplying factories and such. The fact that they lasted 300 years fighting only in small, isolated and poorly supplied groups is actually a big argument for conventional victory.

Avoiding the initial Citadel trap is a real difference this time around. One that clearly impacts the breaking of the cycle. That by itself, however, does not allow a conventional victory. The galaxy does not start the war with sufficient forces to defeat the reapers. If all species combined their forces, they could form a fleet strong enough to defeat a portion of the reaper force, possibly even a significant portion, but at the cost of the defense of their homeworlds and colonies. Yes, they could try to use the relays to react to reaper presence, but the reapers can do the same thing to mass their forces in response. To win a conventional war you must either be able to attack with overwhelming force (advantage reapers) or win a war of attrition (also advantage reapers). To replace our forces we need resources - workers (and food/shelter for them), factories and raw materials. The reapers can deny us any of those resources. We ourselves are the resources for the reapers and their modified soldiers. So, they simultaneously deny us resouces and gain strength themselves. 

Clever tactics cannot win this war because it is statistically inconceivable that any tactic we might try is something they haven't defeated before. After a billion years of these extinction cycles they have faced and defeated every possible combination of weapon technology and tactics that their culling cycle have allowed a civilization time to devise. To think that ours is somehow special because of Shepard is nothing beyond the height of hubris. Even the existence of the Crucible is only the result of a perpetually evolving design handed along from cycle to cycle, though where the original thought for its design or the existence of the Catalyst might be an interesting topic.

It took 300 years to completely destroy the Protheans because they harvested or killed every last one of them. They were thorough. It would probably take as long to do the same to all of the current species as well.

but any tactics they faced before were the work of a divided galaxy versus a unified one. That's like claiming that because another smaller country could conceivable defeat the USA if all branches of the military were isolated from one another and unable to cooperate, they could also easily defeat them as a whole.

The USA is the strongest military force on the planet. The reapers are the strongest military force in the galaxy. Are you suggesting that the Russian military could defeat the USA through clever tactics? Maybe they could destroy a carrier battle group or two, but what about when the other 10 show up? What homeworld do you threaten? How do you pin them down for final victory? This is a war of annihilation. You must have either superior strength or logistical superiority. The Citadel races have neither.

This argument is based entirely on the assumption that dividing the forces of their opponents is the only reason the reapers win. Other species worked on the Crucible design. They got their information from previous civilizations and passed them on to the next. Some of them were likely prepared to try to meet them. They still lost. The game firmly establishes that the reapers, as a complete force, cannot be defeated conventionally. Victories can be achieved, but the combined forces of the galaxy are insufficient for the task.

I can understand the desire for this, but that is simply not what ME is about.

[Skirata129]

Actually the game firmly establishes that they can be defeated conventionally. Key characters say otherwise and we are forced to follow their lead. And We are apparently the first cycle to avoid the Reaper trap,giving us a huge advantage. The fact that they needed a trap such as the Citadel in the first place shows that they are vulnerable.

[atalante33]

Ok, the title gave me a big LOL... "tested by US army"

[atalante33]

Furthermore, the actual strategy you are speaking about has been first postulated and experimented by the Jeune Ecole in 1870-1880... Just imagine how better it would have been for your title :

Method for conventional victory - Tested by the French military

I shouldnt lol so much as I am french

Modifié par atalante33, 02 août 2012 - 03:11 .

[AlanC9]

Skirata129 wrote...

Actually the game firmly establishes that they can be defeated conventionally.

Meaning that a couple of them can be killed. Defeating the entire fleet is a fantasy.

[Skirata129]

huh. I'll add that as a reference in my OP. thanks for the info.

[AlanC9]

atalante33 wrote...

Furthermore, the actual strategy you are speaking about has been first postulated and experimented by the Jeune Ecole in 1870-1880... Just imagine how better it would have been for your title :

Method for conventional victory - Tested by the French military

I shouldnt lol so much as I am french

Nice to see someone else knows his history.

[SC_Jorgie]

Skirata129 wrote...

Actually the game firmly establishes that they can be defeated conventionally. Key characters say otherwise and we are forced to follow their lead. And We are apparently the first cycle to avoid the Reaper trap,giving us a huge advantage. The fact that they needed a trap such as the Citadel in the first place shows that they are vulnerable.

The primary purpose of the reapers is to harvest. Using the Citadel trap effectively limits opposition making harvesting easier and more efficient. They used similar tactics on Earth to isolate populations for processing. That isn't remotely like suggesting that they need that tactic to be able to defeat us. The game firmly establishes that individual reapers can be defeated. It firmly rejects that the Citadel races are capable of winning a conventional war. There is a massive difference between the two. The reapers will not sue for peace because we destroy a few of them. Nor will they accept peace terms. It is a war of total annihilation and we cannot win.

Everything about this theory revolves around us building enough conventional ships to comprise overwhelming force, in secret, while allowing them to ravage our homeworlds and colonies. There is barely enough time to build the Crucible under these conditions. Nothing suggests that the resources required for the Crucible would be sufficient to build this new fleet. It is also based on the assumption that the tactics and weapons comprise something they haven't defeated before. That is statistically impossible, particularly given that all of the technology we are using is based on what they have seeded for us to find. Even Thanix is still based on their own technology and does nothing to answer the fact that we have no defense for their weaponry. The updates to the Normandy are described as staggeringly expensive. Not an option for outfitting an entire fleet.

Sorry, you are assigning a level of military strength to the Citadel races that they simply don't possess.

[eddieoctane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And I'm telling you you can't touch them.

At all.

That's the point.

There is nothing you can do.

Only the combined force of four Dreadnoughts will really do anything and that's difficult to do.

Bioware has stated that it is impossible without using the Crucible.

Accept this and move on.

BioWare also stated there wold be no bespoke ending for everyone and that there was not going to be an A, B, C ending. Nor was ther goign to be a "Reaper off switch". BioWare's word is worth about as much as 1/3 of a dollar bill.

[Baa Baa]

"If you don't use the Crucible..... you have my permission to die..."- Catalyst
DESHI BASARA BASARA
........Couldn't resist

Modifié par Baa Baa, 02 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[Skirata129]

what is the "deshi basara basara" bit from?

[AlanC9]

eddieoctane wrote...

BioWare also stated there wold be no bespoke ending for everyone and that there was not going to be an A, B, C ending. Nor was ther goign to be a "Reaper off switch". BioWare's word is worth about as much as 1/3 of a dollar bill.

Not quite sure what you mean by "no bespoke ending" there.

And the Crucible wasn't a Reaper Off Switch; we've got a whole other thread about how it'd be nice if it actually was, instead of giving people choices that make them sad.

[Dusen]

Skirata129 wrote...
~snip

Well, you see, that would require an actual battleplan from a half-way competant commander.

Hackett's best, most well-thought out tactic (requiring possible months of preperation) is to line his ships up like it's the 17th century and bonzai-charge headlong into an overwhelmingly advanced and outnumbering force.

[AlanC9]

Which is actually the best tactic available. It wins, doesn't it?

[Dusen]

AlanC9 wrote...

Which is actually the best tactic available. It wins, doesn't it?

Let me introduce you to the "rejection" ending.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

AlanC9 wrote...

Which is actually the best tactic available. It wins, doesn't it?

Yes it does. *because it buys time for the plot device*

Even better we actually kill at least 1 capital Reaper in the straight up battle portion.

Which makes me feel good.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 02 août 2012 - 05:52 .

[Skirata129]

AlanC9 wrote...

Which is actually the best tactic available. It wins, doesn't it?

because all parties were somehow unaware of the idea that battle in space does not need to take place on a single plane, as up, down and all directional references are relative.

seriously, read ender's game for the basic idea and then laugh at any scifi movie where two fleets all fight aligned along the same axis.

[krasnoarmeets]

It took the Reapers several centuries to completely defeat the Protheans. The Protheans were clever enough to sabotage the Citadel control signal and successfully duplicate Mass Relay technology. Plus they had the stasis pod technology which would allow them to preserve for at least 50,000 years. Just imagine how things would have played out had they not fallen for the Citadel trap and their forces been divided.

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 02 août 2012 - 06:12 .