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"Machines can be broken"-Conventional Victory Support Thread


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#901
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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krasnoarmeets wrote...

It took the Reapers several centuries to completely defeat the Protheans. The Protheans were clever enough to sabotage the Citadel control signal and successfully duplicate Mass Relay technology. Plus they had the stasis pod technology which would allow them to preserve for at least 50,000 years. Just imagine how things would have played out had they not fallen for the Citadel trap and their forces been divided.


They still probably would have lost but in an even more badass fashion.

#902
Skirata129

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but we don't know that.and it makes you think... if some cycles result in no viable species for creating a Reaper, but numerous losses, some nothing at all, and the majority 1 capital ship and possibly a destroyer or two, how do the Reapers even break even, let alone grow in number?

#903
ZombieJohn84

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3DandBeyond wrote...

ZombieJohn84 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"


Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.


That's not what he said to do at all.

But by all means, have some more kool-aide.

I was in no way criticizing him.  I was saying that the projectile will keep going until it hits something, which was what the instructor was talking about in ME2.  I was actually saying it could make some sense that if a reaper is kept at a distance you could shoot at it and still hit it with full force.  I said it wrong, but thanks for getting nasty before trying to understand what I was saying. 

As to his first statement I got this mental image of one ship being able to take down a reaper if the ship was nimble enough and in stealth mode.  Shoot, pivot, re-target, and repeat.


Sorry then.  It's just that I've been gone from the BSN for awhile since EC came out (don't care nearly as much anymore) and now that I'm back, it seems 80% of the board has adopted this "Well, this was really the only way it could have ended" attitude that just drives me nuts.

I think the idea of 4-5 ships firing off thanix cannons during FTL from multiple directions at multiple distances, all gunning for the same spot, would put a Reaper on its ass fairly quickly if done right.  'Course, this is all given that ships CAN fire at FTL.  Simple arithmetic could figure the rest out though.

Modifié par ZombieJohn84, 02 août 2012 - 01:03 .


#904
Wayning_Star

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ZombieJohn84 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

ZombieJohn84 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

billzo wrote...

To be honest, thanks to FTL travel, you could abuse lightspeed by firing precision shots from different distances and directions so that they would all hit exactly the same thing at exactly the same freaking time.

You could kill a reaper with a shotgun.

Remember the guy in ME2: "Somewhere, somehow, you are ruining someone's day!"


Yeah just point a bunch of guns at a distant reaper, from an airlock and everyone fire at once.  Ha ha--you could stay at a distance and see if they notice incoming projectiles.


That's not what he said to do at all.

But by all means, have some more kool-aide.

I was in no way criticizing him.  I was saying that the projectile will keep going until it hits something, which was what the instructor was talking about in ME2.  I was actually saying it could make some sense that if a reaper is kept at a distance you could shoot at it and still hit it with full force.  I said it wrong, but thanks for getting nasty before trying to understand what I was saying. 

As to his first statement I got this mental image of one ship being able to take down a reaper if the ship was nimble enough and in stealth mode.  Shoot, pivot, re-target, and repeat.


Sorry then.  It's just that I've been gone from the BSN for awhile since EC came out (don't care nearly as much anymore) and now that I'm back, it seems 80% of the board has adopted this "Well, this was really the only way it could have ended" attitude that just drives me nuts.

I think the idea of 4-5 ships firing off thanix cannons during FTL from multiple directions at multiple distances, all gunning for the same spot, would put a Reaper on its ass fairly quickly if done right.  'Course, this is all given that ships CAN fire at FTL.  Simple arithmetic could figure the rest out though.


come to think of it, ships cannot fire at faster than light speed, as the theory that permits it, denies that anything inside of that 'bubble' of light speed constant, cannot out run the static speed of that object. In other words the projectiles cannot go faster than the ship they're travelling with/from.  To even 'exist ' at the speed of light, you have to form a bubble of time around the ship, or it will simply cease to function, as the molecules lock up from the warp. It's an 'everywhereallatonce' thing?

#905
Darkelefantos1

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I felt like punching somebody when I read the thread title. It implies that the US military defeated the Reapers when nobody was watching...
In your OP, you make it sound so easy. Several thousand fighters with Thanix cannons? That takes a while to do, I'm sure of it. And even if you have those, the Reapers have fighters aswell, and they can process information faster than any organic, meaning they could adapt so fast that you wouldn't have time to change strategy before utter defeat.
The US military did not defeat the Reapers.

Edit for good measure: Reapers like Harbinger have millions to billions of years of war experience. We'll never know how well prepared the other cycles were, how long they survived, which tactics they used...perhaps nothing our cycle did took them completely by surprise...

Modifié par Darkelefantos1, 02 août 2012 - 01:32 .


#906
Tibbur

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Why does my galaxy at war screen say I'm winning if it's impossible.

#907
pvigo

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The Allied propaganda machine doesn't want to break your little heart, Tibbur.

#908
ZombieJohn84

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Darkelefantos1 wrote...

I felt like punching somebody when I read the thread title. It implies that the US military defeated the Reapers when nobody was watching...
In your OP, you make it sound so easy. Several thousand fighters with Thanix cannons? That takes a while to do, I'm sure of it. And even if you have those, the Reapers have fighters aswell, and they can process information faster than any organic, meaning they could adapt so fast that you wouldn't have time to change strategy before utter defeat.
The US military did not defeat the Reapers.

Edit for good measure: Reapers like Harbinger have millions to billions of years of war experience. We'll never know how well prepared the other cycles were, how long they survived, which tactics they used...perhaps nothing our cycle did took them completely by surprise...


For some reason, I thought the OP was going to bring up the Vietnam War.  You know, because everyone said the VC would never be able to take on the technologically superior US military and do any good.

#909
Wayning_Star

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ZombieJohn84 wrote...

Darkelefantos1 wrote...

I felt like punching somebody when I read the thread title. It implies that the US military defeated the Reapers when nobody was watching...
In your OP, you make it sound so easy. Several thousand fighters with Thanix cannons? That takes a while to do, I'm sure of it. And even if you have those, the Reapers have fighters aswell, and they can process information faster than any organic, meaning they could adapt so fast that you wouldn't have time to change strategy before utter defeat.
The US military did not defeat the Reapers.

Edit for good measure: Reapers like Harbinger have millions to billions of years of war experience. We'll never know how well prepared the other cycles were, how long they survived, which tactics they used...perhaps nothing our cycle did took them completely by surprise...


For some reason, I thought the OP was going to bring up the Vietnam War.  You know, because everyone said the VC would never be able to take on the technologically superior US military and do any good.


conventional wars on earth cannot be compared to intergalactic battle/war. Tech has a whole new meaning out there,changed tactics no end. Wars could last for centuries, with little changes in battles,wars could probably end without some even knowing they started as well. It would probably be the most impractical thing to do on the most part cause the area is soo friggen big and the need for it would be kind of lost in space. Battle yes, wars..not so much..

#910
satunnainen

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There was an area in the jungle where an ant path and elephant path crossed. So naturally every now and then a careless elephant stepped on the ant path and killed hundreds of ants with a single step. Eventually the ants got tired of this and decided to ambush one of the elephants for revenge. They waited and after some time one elephant walked close enough. All the ants ran up the legs of the elephant and tried to bite their way through the elephants thick skin. Elephant noticed eventually the ants and with a few shakes of legs, few swings of trunk and flappings of ears he managed to drop almost all the ants back to the ground, except one. There was one ant still hanging near the elephants neck. Other ants noticed this lonely heroic ant and yelled: Go for it George, strangle it.

Sorry, a bit off topic. Or not :)

Modifié par satunnainen, 02 août 2012 - 01:55 .


#911
tyrvas

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Darkelefantos1 wrote...

Edit for good measure: Reapers like Harbinger have millions to billions of years of war experience. We'll never know how well prepared the other cycles were, how long they survived, which tactics they used...perhaps nothing our cycle did took them completely by surprise...


The only thing that took the cycle by surprise was the hack done to keepers by the Protheans,
This delayed their arrival in Shep's cycle.

#912
Ukomba

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Seems a lot of comments on this thread are along the lines of. Sure this may be a proven tactic for dealing with large, heavily armed ships with a smaller force, but it won't work against the reapers because I don't think it will.

I think the point is, a modern battle ships and reapers have large weapons, geared towards doing massive damage to larger ships or land installations. Spreading the fire power out over multiple small ships negates the advantage of heavy weapons. It's like trying to deal with a large groups of husks with a Javelin Sniper Rifle.

Ever Played Star Wars: Rebellion? An Imperial Star Destroyer will crush most ships that come against it. You're worst night mare is to have your Star Destroyer facing a couple of squadrons of star fighters.

#913
incinerator950

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Skirata129 wrote...

but we don't know that.and it makes you think... if some cycles result in no viable species for creating a Reaper, but numerous losses, some nothing at all, and the majority 1 capital ship and possibly a destroyer or two, how do the Reapers even break even, let alone grow in number?


Plot

#914
incinerator950

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Ukomba wrote...

Seems a lot of comments on this thread are along the lines of. Sure this may be a proven tactic for dealing with large, heavily armed ships with a smaller force, but it won't work against the reapers because I don't think it will.

I think the point is, a modern battle ships and reapers have large weapons, geared towards doing massive damage to larger ships or land installations. Spreading the fire power out over multiple small ships negates the advantage of heavy weapons. It's like trying to deal with a large groups of husks with a Javelin Sniper Rifle.

Ever Played Star Wars: Rebellion? An Imperial Star Destroyer will crush most ships that come against it. You're worst night mare is to have your Star Destroyer facing a couple of squadrons of star fighters.


Yes, because Star Destroyers are line ships meant to take on other Capitals.  Their design flaws (or overall purpose) are not meant for Fighter screens, even though they are fully capable.  That's what Carrack and Lancer Frigates are for.  They are meant to fit an order of battle that the Imperials like to overlook because pretty death weapons with a fancy price tag.

Reapers are designed to destroy everything around them.  Even a Destroyer can swat fighters around.  A Reapers order of battle is Kill Everything.  Hence why they're called Reapers. 

#915
incinerator950

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Skirata129 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
Non-combatant ships logically needed to be upgraded to match speeds.

Please clarify?


This isn't SW were every freighter is a jury rigged smuggler ride.  Its guaranteed that Freighters and pleasure yacts will be inferior to Standard warships.  Even their heat-difusion/emmision systems are grossly inferior, if I read the codex right.  

Also, what makes you think the Reapers are going to stand idly and let passenger liners drift near them?  Reapers have a tendency to destroy Satellites and Space Stations, and everything that can be used against them.  

#916
incinerator950

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atalante33 wrote...

Furthermore, the actual strategy you are speaking about has been first postulated and experimented by the Jeune Ecole in 1870-1880... Just imagine how better it would have been for your title :

Method for conventional victory - Tested by the French military

I shouldnt lol so much as I am french


Elaborate please.

#917
V-rcingetorix

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Let me see if I can synopsize this particular discussion:

Advantages for Reapers:
1. More military experience in one Reaper than in all the civilizations in the current cycle.
2. Better shields, weapons, flank speed and communication.
3. No supply lines, industrial bases or communication hubs.
4. Non-negotiable, will not be distracted from task.
5. Able to assess and assimilate data at AI-on-steroids-speed.
6. Creators of the technology used by all galactic races.
7. Able to go anywhere in the galaxy.

Advantages for Galaxy/Alliance:
1. First cycle to foil the Citadel trap, granting extra time.
2. Already possess weapons developed from Reaper tech (Thanix cannon, Quantum Entanglers).
3. United completely, unlike any other cycle.
4. Built and keep Crucible, which identifies each and every Reaper and Relay in existence, w/o touching the Citadel.
5. Specialists that devote their time solely to design strategies and weapons.
6. Already killed a Sovereign class, and two Destroyer class Reapers.
7. Able to build the Crucible (massive energy system) within months of receiving data.
8. Geth are united behind galaxy.
9. Rachni are ready to rock.

Disadvantages to Reapers:
1. Confidence; constantly surprised at organic subtlety, Shepard especially.
2. No concept of guerrila tactics, constant barrage and overwhelming forces.
3. Reliance on captured enemy units for infantry.
4. Require extended periods of time to rebuild Sovereing class/Destroyer class units.
5. Do not have ability to track every Relay, although possibly have contact with each existing Reaper (doubtful).
6. Lack of cleanup protocol; dead Reapers all over (IFF, Leviathan).
7. Originally started by flawed organic programming.
8. Cerberus.
9. Geth are united.

Disadvantages to Galaxy/Alliance:
1. Outgunned, and overwhelmed.
2. Inferior technology.
3. Lack of military experience.
4. Unity and cooperative agreements only recently achieved.
5. Distrust within ranks.
6. Cerberus.
7. Quarian/Geth are either dead, or very very careful.
8. Rachni might be dead, or impeding progress.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the only real advantages the Reapers have is experience, communication, and massive overwhelming force. This is good as a tactic, but not as a strategy (Gen. Von Clausewitz states a tactic as being limited to a battle/engagement, while a strategy is the overall war plan).

Napoleon invaded Russia in 1812, but lost because he didn't bring along a defensible supply line, and invaded just before "General Winter" arrived. Reapers do not need supply lines, but they can overextend themselves.

Tactic 1.
The Reapers need enemies to be dead, or captured (hence delivered into Reaper controlled areas) so they can develop husks, cannibals, marauders, brutes and banshees. No capture/kills, no infantry.

This can be used by equipping all soldier units with thermonuclear warheads (or similar weapons), getting captured and going off within the enemy stronghold (Miracle of Palaven...Reapers didn't see *that* one coming).

Premise 1:

Assuming that the Reapers are in contact with the Relays, they have accurate counts on how many ships come through, and where and when. However, unless the Reapers have FTL sensors (detecting data from FTL space), the Relays are limited to lightspeed sensory recording. Going from Jupiter to Earth at lightspeed still takes more than 40 minutes; from Pluto it would be a minimum of 5.6 hours at the minimum.

Fact 1: It is known that Alliance ships, and their colleagues, can travel at FTL speeds w/o a Relay (Arrival DLC pegs Reapers Alpha shortcut blowout as a 2 year delay at best Alliance speed).

Fact 2: Light is a constant, always traveling at 300,000 km per second (rounded). Traveling faster than the speed of light eliminates the detection of FTL by lightspeed measures.

Fact 3: The Crucible has a Realtime position on all Reapers and Mass relays.

Conclusion: Ships can journey from Charon to Earth in under 6 hours, knowing where the Reapers are positioned to the third decimal point. The Reapers will know that ships have arrived, but will not know where they are positioned, or from which direction they will ultimately arrive.

Tactic 2:
Assuming the Reapers have spotters/w QE's between the Relay and Earth, Alliance ships will be generally located. However, any Reaper vessels in those positions would be already known, due to the Crucible.

Therefore, isolated Reapers (required for sentry duty) could be overwhelmed, increasing the repair needs and/or replacements which are slow for Reapers.

Premise 2:

Fact: FTL engines have built in safeguards that shut down when in presence of another high-gravity location. Assume this is ingrained to the engine, a gift from the Reapers' technology that organics build upon.

Fact: Geth followed their own technological pattern, but possibly had FTL drives derived from the Quarians.

Fact: Geth also take up the least amount of space, and require neither air or gravity.

Fact: Newtons First Law of Motion (quoted in ME2) indicate that an object in motion will stay in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force.

Therefore, simple mass requires no FTL engine to maintain motion.

Tactic 3:
Two fleets depart for target system, first fleet arriving to remove sentry units in-between Relay and target.

Place masses with minimal life-support required for Geth (keep costs down) and direction change boosters within holds of freighters or larger warships in the second fleet. Use Relays to reach Earh, Palaven or Thessia (all target rich environments) and depart the relay at FTL speeds.

Stop at location where the FTL speed still passes the lightspeed data reaching target and activate the masses (asteroids, wrecked fighters, eezo bombs, ad nauseum). Maintaint FTL protection (bulges in ship hull to contain the masses within the ships FTL field), and deploy apx 2 lightminutes out from target.

Use ships mass to haul secondary masses close to lightspeed (0-lightspeed exemplified by EDI/Joker in ME2 escaping the Collector), and release.

Masses can engage multiple countermeasures, deploying chaff, separating into multiple sections, EM pulses,etc.

Fleet may then engage, flee or continue other mission objectives (rescue, etc).

=========================================================================================

Overall strategy:

1. Keep bodies away from Reapers, or sabotage the bodies if they must be captured. No bodies=no infantry.

2. Suicide missions are made incredibly more efficient and cost-effective when the individual carrying out the mission survives. Geth can download themselves much faster than an escape pod, and have the highest likelihood of survival. Lacking Geth, advanced VI's or volunteers would be needed.

3. Form fleets away from Crucible, and keep Crucible in hiding. Do not store fleets or supplies near Crucible; use Crucible for Reaper data and as a central R&D think tank.

4. Find the link that connects all Reapers (relatively) and try to plug in the Crucible, set to override. Reaper cores must contain eezo, overriding them would cause self-destruct. wait...

EDIT: for spelling, grammar.

EDIT 2: Experience counters for a lot, but it didn't counter Sovereign, or the Miracle of Palaven. It also didn't counter the Battle for Rannoch, or Tuchanka. In war, experience only lets you gain the advantage at the beginning on occasion, and in part permits faster tactic planning (on the fly, as it were). It also allows accumulation of useless data which must be sorted through (do the Reapers really need the data on the slug-species from cycle 3,402 that reacted/w salt?). All that data would take time, even for a supercomputer.

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 02 août 2012 - 06:30 .


#918
3DandBeyond

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Tibbur wrote...

Why does my galaxy at war screen say I'm winning if it's impossible.


For the same reason my war assets screen says chances of winning are even.  Someone likes the word impossible.  And a lot of people here like it as well.  It's a good model to adapt to one's real life.  A boss comes and asks you to do something, tell that person, "I can't, it's impossible."  When you are asked, why it's impossible, just say, "because I said so."  This is what the writers did here and it works for people.  I know there are reasons they believe it, but there are also reasons not to believe it.  And there were ways to make it not impossible.  But, that would involve imagination and speculation.  Things the writers hate.  :devil:

And @ V-rcingetorix, great post.

I do think there is not enough said about over confidence of an enemy-hubris.  That is what **** Germany had, Napoleon had, the British in America had, and Goliath had.  It's the under-estimation of the foe's abilities and determination, innovation.  And the over-estimation of your superiority.  You don't cover your back if you think it's not vulnerable.  You weaken yourself by not considering your enemy a threat.  And if you believe you will win because of your moral authority and not because you are willing to try harder than your enemy you may not win.  This is a recurrent theme that has existed throughout real life. 

Napoleon believed he should and was supposed to rule the world.  And you are right he lacked supply lines and fell victim to people defending their very survival.  Those people determined that losing their homes and their lives was infinitely better than allowing the enemy in.  And Russia in the winter is brutal without food.

One thing I do question not only of you, but I open this up for thought.  How do we know the reapers don't need supplies?  One of the things they do for every harvest is they destroy or take resources as well.  I know they are taking people, but that was supposed to be in order to create new reapers.  What do they live on?  It was originally suspected to be all that organic stuff they take in and maybe it still is that or it's the "energy" from the intelligence they ascend.  But how does the machine part maintain itself.  Does the organic goo maintain the machine part?  They are separate parts of a construct and not fully synthesized.  What if you just killed the organic part (if it's still alive) within them?  Or just poisoned it?  What if you enlisted volunteers to ingest toxic material or contagion or to be harvested along with something that would destroy organic material?  I know this would be individual reapers but they use organic goo like we use blood (or so it looks with the human reaper).

I don't mean this to sound like the ending of War of the Worlds-I know it sounds similar, but I'm talking about intentionally working to kill or destroy the organic part within them.  Like a mutated flesh eating virus or some such that will eat any organic matter, dead or alive.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 02 août 2012 - 06:49 .


#919
incinerator950

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V-rcingetorix wrote...

Let me see if I can synopsize this particular discussion:

Advantages for Reapers:
1. More military experience in one Reaper than in all the civilizations in the current cycle.
2. Better shields, weapons, flank speed and communication.
3. No supply lines, industrial bases or communication hubs.
4. Non-negotiable, will not be distracted from task.
5. Able to assess and assimilate data at AI-on-steroids-speed.
6. Creators of the technology used by all galactic races.
7. Able to go anywhere in the galaxy.

Advantages for Galaxy/Alliance:
1. First cycle to foil the Citadel trap, granting extra time.
2. Already possess weapons developed from Reaper tech (Thanix cannon, Quantum Entanglers).
3. United completely, unlike any other cycle.
4. Built and keep Crucible, which identifies each and every Reaper and Relay in existence, w/o touching the Citadel.
5. Specialists that devote their time solely to design strategies and weapons.
6. Already killed a Sovereign class, and two Destroyer class Reapers.
7. Able to build the Crucible (massive energy system) within months of receiving data.
8. Geth are united behind galaxy.
9. Rachni are ready to rock.

Disadvantages to Reapers:
1. Confidence; constantly surprised at organic subtlety, Shepard especially.
2. No concept of guerrila tactics, constant barrage and overwhelming forces.
3. Reliance on captured enemy units for infantry.
4. Require extended periods of time to rebuild Sovereing class/Destroyer class units.
5. Do not have ability to track every Relay, although possibly have contact with each existing Reaper (doubtful).
6. Lack of cleanup protocol; dead Reapers all over (IFF, Leviathan).
7. Originally started by flawed organic programming.
8. Cerberus.
9. Geth are united.

Disadvantages to Galaxy/Alliance:
1. Outgunned, and overwhelmed.
2. Inferior technology.
3. Lack of military experience.
4. Unity and cooperative agreements only recently achieved.
5. Distrust within ranks.
6. Cerberus.
7. Quarian/Geth are either dead, or very very careful.
8. Rachni might be dead, or impeding progress.


Reapers have short supplylines, which is just dragging their Husk Carriers with them.  Which doesn't sound like too much of a big deal for them.  Their negotiations are always completely one sided in their favor. 

The Prothean cycle was united, all of the races followed the same order of battle.  The Crucible plans were already finished for the Protheans, and the design plans are simple enough for a lesser species to construct.  

I don't call their confidence a problem.  They won over Kar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia.  Their reliance on captured infantry is a boon, because its not just infantry.  Its our civilians and casualties.  They're suprised at Shepard's success, not the Council Races occasionally getting a Reaper kill.

I'm glad you labled the Quarians Geth and Rachni able to be casualties.  Do not forget about the Krogan not joining if you betray Wrex.  

#920
3DandBeyond

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incinerator950 wrote...

Reapers have short supplylines, which is just dragging their Husk Carriers with them.  Which doesn't sound like too much of a big deal for them.  Their negotiations are always completely one sided in their favor. 

The Prothean cycle was united, all of the races followed the same order of battle.  The Crucible plans were already finished for the Protheans, and the design plans are simple enough for a lesser species to construct.  

I don't call their confidence a problem.  They won over Kar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia.  Their reliance on captured infantry is a boon, because its not just infantry.  Its our civilians and casualties.  They're suprised at Shepard's success, not the Council Races occasionally getting a Reaper kill.

I'm glad you labled the Quarians Geth and Rachni able to be casualties.  Do not forget about the Krogan not joining if you betray Wrex.  


Javik said that lack of unity was the problem with the protheans-they were totalitarian and forced people to be in their empire.  Quite different from the current cycle and Javik pointed that out as a strength that this time had.

#921
incinerator950

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3DandBeyond wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Reapers have short supplylines, which is just dragging their Husk Carriers with them.  Which doesn't sound like too much of a big deal for them.  Their negotiations are always completely one sided in their favor. 

The Prothean cycle was united, all of the races followed the same order of battle.  The Crucible plans were already finished for the Protheans, and the design plans are simple enough for a lesser species to construct.  

I don't call their confidence a problem.  They won over Kar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia.  Their reliance on captured infantry is a boon, because its not just infantry.  Its our civilians and casualties.  They're suprised at Shepard's success, not the Council Races occasionally getting a Reaper kill.

I'm glad you labled the Quarians Geth and Rachni able to be casualties.  Do not forget about the Krogan not joining if you betray Wrex.  


Javik said that lack of unity was the problem with the protheans-they were totalitarian and forced people to be in their empire.  Quite different from the current cycle and Javik pointed that out as a strength that this time had.


Yes, the ending showed great diversity in different races and tactics being unified. 

As opposed to the Reapers, who smashed the Turians in their own combat, washed over the Humans, turned the Batarians on themselves, skirted the Salarians, and forced the Asari into open combat, steamrolling Thessia.  

Modifié par incinerator950, 02 août 2012 - 06:56 .


#922
V-rcingetorix

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incinerator950 wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...
~snip~


Reapers have short supplylines, which is just dragging their Husk Carriers with them.  Which doesn't sound like too much of a big deal for them.  Their negotiations are always completely one sided in their favor. 

The Prothean cycle was united, all of the races followed the same order of battle.  The Crucible plans were already finished for the Protheans, and the design plans are simple enough for a lesser species to construct.  

I don't call their confidence a problem.  They won over Kar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia.  Their reliance on captured infantry is a boon, because its not just infantry.  Its our civilians and casualties.  They're suprised at Shepard's success, not the Council Races occasionally getting a Reaper kill.

I'm glad you labled the Quarians Geth and Rachni able to be casualties.  Do not forget about the Krogan not joining if you betray Wrex.  


Reaper supply lines...hmmm. Interesting subject; one of the guards on the Normandy mentions a lack of supply lines, but you have a point that turning out husks requires a factory of sorts. If such a factory is indeed a ship, then there is a targetable supply line, if only difficult.

Protheans were not united, at least not the same way our cycle is. Javik mentions that forces within the Empire (Prothean Cerberus?) bogged down the war effort and made issues, in addition to the Empire drafting every race it came across to help fight. Apparently that is why Asari, Humans and so forth are so advanced, Protheans were meddling in our development.

Prothean tactics also needed work. They fought to the last man in every system, all the time. No tactical retreat, no regroup giving up a system. It's a credit to their courage, but not a good strategy.

Reapers were designed with flawed programming. The Protheans took
advantage of this flaw in ME1 by inserting a signal-blocking program
into the Citadel. The Reapers never detected this until well after the
Citadel was re-discovered, and couldn't/wouldn't correct the problem
with overwhelming force.

On the Krogan, I decided to include them as a standard resource; even if you betray Wrex, the Krogan can still side with you. Maybe that depends on the choices made in ME2, idk. I lack sufficient data to make a complete answer. Do the Krogan leave completely if you betray Wrex? I was under the impression that Wrex hadn't told anyone else, and the rest of the Krogan were still under the impression that the cure would still be in effect.

#923
DecCylonus

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The problem with the OP's analogy is that a modern US carrier is a soft target. They are built entirely for offensive warfare, and have minimal defenses. The have sophisticated electronic warfare suites, but they lack armor and have few defensive weapons. They rely on their fighters to kill anything that tries to get close, and on escort ships to kill anything that actually gets close. They aren't much more defensible than WWII carriers, which suffered massive damage from a few bomb or shell hits and always ran from engagements with enemy surface ships. Small boats with rocket launchers were an end-round strategy that presented an unanticipated threat and exploited that weakness.

In contrast, a Reaper dreadnought is more like WWII era dreadnought in its own era. Dreadnoughts carry both heavy firepower and heavy armor. They have a few large guns for dealing with ships of their own class, and many smaller guns for dealing with aircraft or smaller ships. They also have heavy armor that is capable of withstanding their own guns for a limited time. How effective was this design? It's significant that no US dreadnought was sunk after Pearl Harbor. When fully operational and fighting, these ships inflicted heavy losses on enemy aircraft with their AA guns. The codex indicates that Reaper dreadnoughts have similar characteristics. They have heavy armor and shielding, and many point defense weapons for dealing with smaller craft, in addition to their large main guns.

The speedboat attack that killed a modern US carrier would not kill one of these old dreadnoughts, because the missiles would not penetrate its heavy armor. The dreadnought's many lighter, rapid fire guns would also have done significant damage to the attacking force. It might be severely damaged, but its armor would keep its vitals protected and prevent fatal hull damage. This is how I see the results of using swarms of lighter craft to attack the Reaper fleets. Of course some modern dreadnoughts were sunk by aircraft in WWII, noteably Yamato and Musashi. However, these ships were ambushed by submarines and swarms of aircraft from several carriers and bases, and had few escorts. They also lacked their own aircover, which the Reapers do not. The bottom line is I just don't see these tactics working if the Reaper dreadnoughts truly are dreadnoughts, and not just big ships full of empty space. The Citadel forces might kill a few of them, but they will take large losses in every battle. Killing them gets harder as more of them are concentrated together and put more flak in the air. In the end, I don't see the Citadel forces being able to sustain the numerical superiority they need to win on these terms.

Modifié par DecCylonus, 03 août 2012 - 12:23 .


#924
V-rcingetorix

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Tibbur wrote...

One thing I do question not only of you, but I open this up for thought.  How do we know the reapers don't need supplies?  One of the things they do for every harvest is they destroy or take resources as well.  I know they are taking people, but that was supposed to be in order to create new reapers.  What do they live on?  It was originally suspected to be all that organic stuff they take in and maybe it still is that or it's the "energy" from the intelligence they ascend.  But how does the machine part maintain itself.  Does the organic goo maintain the machine part?  They are separate parts of a construct and not fully synthesized.  What if you just killed the organic part (if it's still alive) within them?  Or just poisoned it?  What if you enlisted volunteers to ingest toxic material or contagion or to be harvested along with something that would destroy organic material?  I know this would be individual reapers but they use organic goo like we use blood (or so it looks with the human reaper).

I don't mean this to sound like the ending of War of the Worlds-I know it sounds similar, but I'm talking about intentionally working to kill or destroy the organic part within them.  Like a mutated flesh eating virus or some such that will eat any organic matter, dead or alive.


Excellent question, but I only have theories :/

Fact 1. Reapers use nanotechnology in their husk re-work.
Fact 2. Husks can be co-opted by Cerberus overrides.
 Therefore, the individual nanites can be either re-written or "stolen" from Reaper control.

Reaper supply lines...
The way you phrase this looked more like (to me) an analysis of Reaper/ORganic integration.

Going back to ME2, colonists are processed to make a baby Reaper. Each Collector ship had the capacity to hold millions of pods, each subject then being processed. The "soup"would then go down a pipe to the main chamber, and as far as I could tell, would be connected via nanites to the main framework of the baby Reaper.

Going forward to ME3, the codex states that some humans are not fit for processing (due to bad DNA or non-exemplary DNA). This would then suggest that the lowest of the Reaper forces (husks) have DNA reading capability.

Fact 1. Reapers use original genetic material to make Reapers. Apparently unable to synthesize genetic material.

Fact 2. Husks are able to be controlled...by nefarious and evilly obtained means.

Potential...?
Husks could be secretly reprogrammed to accept bad DNA, or even sabotage good DNA. Whether this would be possible w/o reaper detection...idk. Sanctuary was flattened because Cerberus wasn't able to dampen the Husk-reprogramming signal enough. I doubt the Husks could be altered w/o the Reapers knowing, but maybe a virus could be implemented, spoiling the whole batch?

EDIT: clarity

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 02 août 2012 - 07:33 .


#925
AlanC9

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Skirata129 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Which is actually the best tactic available. It wins, doesn't it?


because all parties were somehow unaware of the idea that battle in space does not need to take place on a single plane, as up, down and all directional references are relative.

seriously, read ender's game for the basic idea and then laugh at any scifi movie where two fleets all fight aligned along the same axis.



I've read it. Realistic space battles would look lousy in cutscenes.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 août 2012 - 07:35 .