1098 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

V-rcingetorix wrote...
~snip~

Reapers have short supplylines, which is just dragging their Husk Carriers with them.  Which doesn't sound like too much of a big deal for them.  Their negotiations are always completely one sided in their favor. 

The Prothean cycle was united, all of the races followed the same order of battle.  The Crucible plans were already finished for the Protheans, and the design plans are simple enough for a lesser species to construct.  

I don't call their confidence a problem.  They won over Kar'Shan, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia.  Their reliance on captured infantry is a boon, because its not just infantry.  Its our civilians and casualties.  They're suprised at Shepard's success, not the Council Races occasionally getting a Reaper kill.

I'm glad you labled the Quarians Geth and Rachni able to be casualties.  Do not forget about the Krogan not joining if you betray Wrex.  

Reaper supply lines...hmmm. Interesting subject; one of the guards on the Normandy mentions a lack of supply lines, but you have a point that turning out husks requires a factory of sorts. If such a factory is indeed a ship, then there is a targetable supply line, if only difficult.

Protheans were not united, at least not the same way our cycle is. Javik mentions that forces within the Empire (Prothean Cerberus?) bogged down the war effort and made issues, in addition to the Empire drafting every race it came across to help fight. Apparently that is why Asari, Humans and so forth are so advanced, Protheans were meddling in our development.

Prothean tactics also needed work. They fought to the last man in every system, all the time. No tactical retreat, no regroup giving up a system. It's a credit to their courage, but not a good strategy.

Reapers were designed with flawed programming. The Protheans took
advantage of this flaw in ME1 by inserting a signal-blocking program
into the Citadel. The Reapers never detected this until well after the
Citadel was re-discovered, and couldn't/wouldn't correct the problem
with overwhelming force.

On the Krogan, I decided to include them as a standard resource; even if you betray Wrex, the Krogan can still side with you. Maybe that depends on the choices made in ME2, idk. I lack sufficient data to make a complete answer. Do the Krogan leave completely if you betray Wrex? I was under the impression that Wrex hadn't told anyone else, and the rest of the Krogan were still under the impression that the cure would still be in effect.

Wrex pulls all Krogan under his command (Basically all of Tuchanka) back to their homeworld to die on their terms.  He also tries (and fails) to kill Shepard for not curing the Genophage.  

I wouldn't call it a Priority soft spot.  Their supply lines are just their Collected Husk armies, and its obvious the Reapers can just use their own bodies to transport them.  

[V-rcingetorix]

Interesting about Wrex; is it possible to kill Wrex w/o losing the Krogan?

Husks inside Reaper bodies...creepy but effective. I didn't see any of the Praetorians in ME3...did they go obsolete with the Collectors?

Possible counter for husk carriers: strip Reaper shields and fire an EM missile, or maybe a railgun for kinetic energy transfer?

Husks on the ground are highly mobile, but (by comparison) weak. Electromagnetic weapons (tasers?) should hit the nanites, but the organic components?

Earlier, about the Reapers being overconfident, I think that really can factor in. If the Reapers are AI's, then they would be subjective to the same weakness other beings are. Less in some cases, more in others. Static electricity doesn't erase an organics' mind very well, but organics get bored easily.

[incinerator950]

Yes, kill him on Virmire.

Yes probably, there are a lot of things in this game that are missing.

Mass Accelerators are Railguns.

Don't know.

[CrutchCricket]

Nice find OP. I find it particularly telling how in your example, Blue got spanked hard and basically went "no you can't! We're supposed to win!":lol:

Sounds all too familiar....

Wonder what the US's buzzwords were? We've got "Artistic Integrity". I wonder what they got hit with?

You know, I'd love for an actual military tactician to play the games, read up on the lore and then tell us what is and isn't possible conventionally.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 02 août 2012 - 08:49 .

[incinerator950]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Nice find OP. I find it particularly telling how in your example, Blue got spanked hard and basically went "no you can't! We're supposed to win!":lol:

Sounds all too familiar....

Wonder what the US's buzzwords were? We've got "Artistic Integrity". I wonder what they got hit with?

You know, I'd love for an actual military tactician to play the games, read up on the lore and then tell us what is and isn't possible conventionally.

They'd probably say anything is possible with the way they write the story. 

[SC_Jorgie]

The simple reality is that this is pure speculation. Can you speculate that there is a way to defeat them conventionally? Sure, if you assume that:

1. You can devise a combination of tactics/weaponry that they haven't defeated in the past
2. They cannot adapt to this strategy before you destroy them all
3. You can replace your inevitable loses fast enough to maintain the necessary superiority in strength.

Nothing in the game suggests that this is possible. Much in the game states that it is impossible. Ultimately it doesn't really matter. The writers determined that it wasn't possible. There is no possibility of testing any of these theories because it is impossible to know how strong reapers truly are or the potential effectiveness of any of these tactics.

The quoted real-world exercise that spawned this thread is flawed when applied against reapers. As has been pointed out, reapers are not aircraft carriers. Carriers are themselves extremely vulnerable, hence the success of the tactic. Reapers are not. Secondly, the exercise was of a single engagement, not a war. A single victory does not win a war. Nothing suggests that the success can be repeated, particularly once the enemy is alerted to the tactic and even more so if you lack the strength to pull it off again due to loses.

If you assume that they can be defeated, then a tactic exists and you win. Yay!

If you assume that they cannot be defeated, then no such tactic exists, Boo!

The game assumes the latter. War readiness measures your ability to fight the Battle of Earth and employ the Crucible. It does not measure your ability to defeat the reapers outside of this construct, because that is all the game is prepared to offer you.

[SnakeSNMF]

While, if you have the Geth as a war-asset, they coulc probably create a number of dreadnoughts -in four weeks- on top of anything.

But that's irrelevant.
Even if we arm a ****load of Fighters witth thanix cannons and missles and hit the Reapers in their "weapon spot" while they're attempting to fire at someone- their, "weakspot."
You still cannot argue that it would last out that long.

As much as I want conventinal victory, and I think the Crucible is retarded, and I detest Bioware for presenting that to us, and I thinkk that with a high eonugh EMS, conventinal victory via refusal should be possible, it just can't happen.

But it'd be awesome if every ship in the Quarian fleet was armed with planet-destroyer weapons, or the weapon the Geth dreadnoughts had, and thanix cannons.
50,000 ships alone.
That's not counting the Geth armada, which is quite large, and they have the most dreadnoughts out of everyone.

Then you have the Salarians, Alliance, Turian, Asari. And hell, even the Krogan could fly some ships if they were given the possibility.
If you have the millitary strength, volus, hanar, batarians, elcor, and the Terminus fleets among other things.
There's a ****load of people that could bring down to bear with the Reapers, that if we planned the war on Earth correctly, we could probably overpower them.


But even with civillan ships and fighters with thanix cannons, it'd still be hard as hell.

[Annapurna]

Pity I didn't find this before the inevitable "THEY SAID YOU CAN'T, SO YOU CAN'T" argument graced our presence with its foul stench.

Anyways, this is the first thing I thought of after I read the codex entries about the Fall of Earth and about how four dreadnoughts can take down a reaper. If you can't defeat your foe on a level playing field, then you must consider alternatives.

I seem to recall Michaelovich in ME1 complaining to Shepard that the amount of eezo in Normandy's drive core could have built 14,000 fighters. God ship and invincible crew aside, I'd be far more confident of victory with 14,000 fighters exploiting an obvious and stated reaper weakness than with one frigate.

Alternatively, the cost of one heavy cruiser was stated to be on par with the construction of the original Normandy. Whether that's pure materials and labor costs or inclusive of development is unknown, but for sake of example assume one SR-1 type frigate equates to one heavy cruiser, and that as per the above example both of those ships equate to 14,000 fighters.

Notice, if you will, the sheer horde of Alliance cruisers in the allied fleet in the final battle. Now imagine them replaced by 14,000 fighters a piece. And given that in the wide-angle shot of the reaper fleet there's probably no more than 150-200 reaper ships, frankly I'd be brimming to the point of egregious arrogance at the force at my disposal.

Now, let me be fair and point out the obvious fault with this. It would be quite improbable to construct a force of perhaps hundreds of thousands of fighters in a time-span short enough to prevent the reapers from either cutting off the allied supply lines or just flat-out destroying everything. You would probably have to abandon the Crucible in order to have enough resources to mount a fighter production program. And yes, reaper counter-measures for this (principally their own oculus-type fighters) and the "law" of attrition would result in catastrophic losses for the allies. (And I disagree emphatically with the notion that the reapers could simply FTL away from the fight; they are the ones that are on the offensive, they have to destroy us. If they continually retreat, then it's a victory for us.)

But, it's still feasible. And frankly I've seen no decent argument against it (and no, the "YOU CANNOT DO IT' argument does not suffice. You want to live in a world bound by lack of choices, go play Call of Duty).

[SC_Jorgie]

Annapurna wrote...

But, it's still feasible. And frankly I've seen no decent argument against it (and no, the "YOU CANNOT DO IT' argument does not suffice. You want to live in a world bound by lack of choices, go play Call of Duty).

It's feasible if you want it to be feasible. There is no way to prove this in either direction, regardless of how convincing you think your argument might be. It's a paper exercise that cannot be tested. The argument is based on the validity of assumptions. If they are right, it's feasible. If not, it's not. Nothing in the game ultimately supports it. Nothing in the game ultimately dismisses it. Much makes it highly questionable.

The tactics being discussed assume a vulnerable target and sufficient force to exploit that vulnerability. The game lore doesn't support the vulnerability theory (the 'eye' vulnerability was exploited on a destroyer on the ground (1/10th the shield/mass effect strength). Sovereign was destroyed after it dropped it's shields because of the destruction of Saren. Lore states that the combined firepower of 4 dreadnaughts is required to take out a Sovereign class. It is pure speculation to assume that this would equate to multiple fighters hitting multiple locations. It is also speculation that they could get close enough to do it.

As speculation, however, by it's nature it cannot be disproven. That doesn't make it any less a fantasy.

[Krunjar]

Exactly. And after all they went through to go the "you can't win this conventionally" route. I really really don't think it's going to happen. So by all means fantasize as you wish. But ultimately it will change nothing.

[V-rcingetorix]

Who knows? Bioware occasionally reads the forums, maybe they'll pick up an idea from here. Besides, it is fun to cogitate on possible solutions that evade the "no you can't" rules.

[nocbl2]

I was surprised when none of the ships in the game aside from Normandy sported Thanix cannons.

[Twinzam.V]

nocbl2 wrote...

I was surprised when none of the ships in the game aside from Normandy sported Thanix cannons.

Apparently they're too expensive. It's more cheaper to surrender.
Better be a mindless slave than waste money on resources that might give you a chance.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 03 août 2012 - 12:11 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Remember folks the plot device is the only thing that can win!

Because anything else wouldn't be edgy and nuanced enough for the creative geniuses who wrote it.

[incinerator950]

SC_Jorgie wrote...

Annapurna wrote...

But, it's still feasible. And frankly I've seen no decent argument against it (and no, the "YOU CANNOT DO IT' argument does not suffice. You want to live in a world bound by lack of choices, go play Call of Duty).

It's feasible if you want it to be feasible. There is no way to prove this in either direction, regardless of how convincing you think your argument might be. It's a paper exercise that cannot be tested. The argument is based on the validity of assumptions. If they are right, it's feasible. If not, it's not. Nothing in the game ultimately supports it. Nothing in the game ultimately dismisses it. Much makes it highly questionable.

The tactics being discussed assume a vulnerable target and sufficient force to exploit that vulnerability. The game lore doesn't support the vulnerability theory (the 'eye' vulnerability was exploited on a destroyer on the ground (1/10th the shield/mass effect strength). Sovereign was destroyed after it dropped it's shields because of the destruction of Saren. Lore states that the combined firepower of 4 dreadnaughts is required to take out a Sovereign class. It is pure speculation to assume that this would equate to multiple fighters hitting multiple locations. It is also speculation that they could get close enough to do it.

As speculation, however, by it's nature it cannot be disproven. That doesn't make it any less a fantasy.

Yay

[Skirata129]

incinerator950 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
Non-combatant ships logically needed to be upgraded to match speeds.

Please clarify?

This isn't SW were every freighter is a jury rigged smuggler ride.  Its guaranteed that Freighters and pleasure yacts will be inferior to Standard warships.  Even their heat-difusion/emmision systems are grossly inferior, if I read the codex right.  

Also, what makes you think the Reapers are going to stand idly and let passenger liners drift near them?  Reapers have a tendency to destroy Satellites and Space Stations, and everything that can be used against them.  

Not passenger liners. I was thinking of civillian sporting vessels. Or do you think in the few hundred years mass effect is set in the future, individuals wth moderate amounts of money will have lost the desire to own vehicles that can go very, very fast? I'm assuming the equivalent of supercars and sports cars in the Mass effect universe would be private shuttles.

[SuperMegaWolf]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

This is only said in the third game. Op's argument involves changing the events of the third game. This renders your argument invalid. Please think about things more.

[SC_Jorgie]

Twinzam.V wrote...

nocbl2 wrote...

I was surprised when none of the ships in the game aside from Normandy sported Thanix cannons.

Apparently they're too expensive. It's more cheaper to surrender.
Better be a mindless slave than waste money on resources that might give you a chance.

You are associating expensive with cost. Expensive simply means many resources measured in time and rare/valuable raw materials. It doesn't matter if someone is willing to work for free or give you the resources if you still don't have enough time or raw materials to construct them.

As long as you are rewriting the game as a fanfic, you might as well construct a fleet of 10,000 free Normandys each commanded by a clone of Shepard. Having those is just as likely.

[Oni Changas]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

We're told we'd die in Omega-4. We're also told that Sovereign is unstoppable. Yet, we are shown different. The "can't win conventionally" shizz started in Mass Effect Schizo-I mean 3.

[SC_Jorgie]

OniTYME wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Dude.

This will not, and never can, apply to the Reapers.

You cannot win conventionally. You are told this twice before going to the Citadel for the first time.

You either use the Crucible that you have permission to use, or you die.

It's really ****ing simple.

We're told we'd die in Omega-4. We're also told that Sovereign is unstoppable. Yet, we are shown different. The "can't win conventionally" shizz started in Mass Effect Schizo-I mean 3.

Can't win conventionally started with the understanding of what the Reapers are, how many of them there are, and that the extinction cycle had repeated many many times before. This was established well before ME3. No civilization defeated them. The Citadel fleet didn't even scratch Sovereign until Shepard took out Saren. That was with the support of the Destiny Ascension.  The ending of ME2 was designed for one purpose - to leave the player with the understanding that they would be facing overwhelming odds in ME3.

The flagship of the Third Fleet, a dreadnaught, managed to slow down (not destroy) a Reaper destroyer before it (singular) could destroy the Third Fleet. Not a Sovereign class, a Destroyer. This was all established in the game.

Any thought that a conventional victory is remotely possible is nothing more than the ultimate Mary Sue fanfic. Shepard is the ultimate hero. He can defy the odds. To a point. Defeating the Reapers conventionally isn't defying the odds. It's altering the reality of the story to suit your own pet ending.

Mary Sue fanfic.

[Oni Changas]

This may be true, but again, we're shown that words are just words until they're proven wrong. Showing has a much stronger effect than telling, especially if themes are purported through those means.

[Wyatt Shepard]

ugh THIS again.

Ok look, no a conventional victory is NOT possible. Never was. This was established way back in ME1, and reinforced in the other two games. Even the Protheans, with more advanced technology, got stomped. This is like an argument I heard from someone once who said that the entire series was stupid because all the Jedi needed to do was inject Midi-chlorians into everyone and they would have a massive army of Jedi. Yah, maybe. But that is NOT how the story works. The Reapers cannot, could never be defeated by conventional means.

And while all the talk about how one might bring the might of the combined galactic fleets down upon the Reapers is awesome and fun, it would require a totally different game that involved tactical space combat, which isn't mass effect.

[SC_Jorgie]

OniTYME wrote...

This may be true, but again, we're shown that words are just words until they're proven wrong. Showing has a much stronger effect than telling, especially if themes are purported through those means.

Wow, and people hate the ending now. I can just imagine the outcry if the game allowed you to attempt a conventional victory just to crush you. Game over. Cycle continues. Even then people wouldn't be satisfied unless it somehow evolved into a complex space combat simulation because it didn't let them try their sure fire, can't fail, pet tactic. 

Sigh. You are really playing the wrong game. 

[Chaoswind]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overwhelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military exercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT 1&3 : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 This was also the strategy used by the French Navy during the 19th century. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeune_%C3%89cole

EDIT 2:  Another way to increase total numbers for these swarm attacks would be to equip civillian vessels with Thanix weaponry, particularly sporting craft. These could very well be better suited to this type of assault as civilian craft designed purely for speed and maneuverability but lacking armor seem better suited to getting close and evading fire than an equivalent military fighter, designed to be able to take at least a modicum of punishment. Think of a Nissan GTR versus a Humvee or jeep for a good parallel.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11814974/1



read that

/thread

[dreman9999]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

While, if you have the Geth as a war-asset, they coulc probably create a number of dreadnoughts -in four weeks- on top of anything.

But that's irrelevant.
Even if we arm a ****load of Fighters witth thanix cannons and missles and hit the Reapers in their "weapon spot" while they're attempting to fire at someone- their, "weakspot."
You still cannot argue that it would last out that long.

As much as I want conventinal victory, and I think the Crucible is retarded, and I detest Bioware for presenting that to us, and I thinkk that with a high eonugh EMS, conventinal victory via refusal should be possible, it just can't happen.

But it'd be awesome if every ship in the Quarian fleet was armed with planet-destroyer weapons, or the weapon the Geth dreadnoughts had, and thanix cannons.
50,000 ships alone.
That's not counting the Geth armada, which is quite large, and they have the most dreadnoughts out of everyone.

Then you have the Salarians, Alliance, Turian, Asari. And hell, even the Krogan could fly some ships if they were given the possibility.
If you have the millitary strength, volus, hanar, batarians, elcor, and the Terminus fleets among other things.
There's a ****load of people that could bring down to bear with the Reapers, that if we planned the war on Earth correctly, we could probably overpower them.


But even with civillan ships and fighters with thanix cannons, it'd still be hard as hell.

I think the problem here is that people just don't get that they will lose a convetional fight with the reapers. And this had been shown for ME1. We can sit here and tell you how wrong yo are but your too stubborn  to get it.