1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Or you know maybe it's that people think the current setup is terrible and are looking for something anything as a potential replacement.

Besides the universe is dead anyway so why not go over unprovable theories. Or is fun not allowed?

[Wyatt Shepard]

its not a question of fun not being allowed. I just don't get why there is an expectation that the reapers can be beat by conventional forces when, since ME1, we've known they cannot be.

[AlanC9]

Because people really, really, want it to be true. The arguments aren't serious, they're just ways to rationalize a desired outcome.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

its not a question of fun not being allowed. I just don't get why there is an expectation that the reapers can be beat by conventional forces when, since ME1, we've known they cannot be.

After the way the trilogy ended I'd be fine with an out of left field conventional victory.

Because it'd be better than what we got.

That and it's in the same category of "Who would win anastronaut  or a caveman"?

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 03 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[A0170]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overwhelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military exercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT 1&3 : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 This was also the strategy used by the French Navy during the 19th century. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeune_%C3%89cole

EDIT 2:  Another way to increase total numbers for these swarm attacks would be to equip civillian vessels with Thanix weaponry, particularly sporting craft. These could very well be better suited to this type of assault as civilian craft designed purely for speed and maneuverability but lacking armor seem better suited to getting close and evading fire than an equivalent military fighter, designed to be able to take at least a modicum of punishment. Think of a Nissan GTR versus a Humvee or jeep for a good parallel.

[SC_Jorgie]

I guess I truly don't understand the desire for a conventional victory. The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. That's what makes them the threat to all life that they are. Change that to make such a victory possible and you change the entire tone of the series. And not for the better.

A Crucible type solution is the only way to deal with them. It's the execution that's the problem. I think I understand the core of the story including what the Catalyst is and how it works. The problem is in the execution and in the lack of sufficient story reveals to bring the player to that understanding without the exposition dialogue at the end. Also, Synthesis as executed is pure magic well beyond any reasonable tech. Unforgivable for a series that has been notable for the internal consistency of its pseudo science. If Leviathon truly explains more about the Reapers, hopefully it'll make the choices at the end cleaner and more satisfying.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

SC_Jorgie wrote...

I guess I truly don't understand the desire for a conventional victory. The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. That's what makes them the threat to all life that they are. Change that to make such a victory possible and you change the entire tone of the series. And not for the better.

The bolded underlined bit sort of happens anyway.

So if the enjoyable companions, and interesting choices get cast aside in favor of my particular favorite color of explosion *I prefer red*

I'm sure as hell going to get goofy with fan theories.

They killed any "Serious" feel the series had, Now I'm going to have fun with it.

[Skirata129]

Chaoswind wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overwhelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military exercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Could not this same idea be extrapolated to the mass effect universe? Take many small, lightly armored and fast fighters and frigates, arm them with thanix cannons and mob the Reapers. Sure many of them would be shot down, but the Reaper capital ships would be swarmed with the effective firepower of several hundred dreadnaughts, without being presented with the relatively slow and large target a dreadnaught usually displays.

Other methods could be viable of course. Opinions on this and other conventional victory suggestions?

EDIT 1&3 : fixed typos and posting link to wargame where this technique was used. funny, the Admiral in charge's position lines up pretty well with certain defeatists in the game and on these forums... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 This was also the strategy used by the French Navy during the 19th century. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeune_%C3%89cole

EDIT 2:  Another way to increase total numbers for these swarm attacks would be to equip civillian vessels with Thanix weaponry, particularly sporting craft. These could very well be better suited to this type of assault as civilian craft designed purely for speed and maneuverability but lacking armor seem better suited to getting close and evading fire than an equivalent military fighter, designed to be able to take at least a modicum of punishment. Think of a Nissan GTR versus a Humvee or jeep for a good parallel.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11814974/1



read that

/thread

I always think its hilarious when someone thinks that just because they wrote '/thread' people will actually stop discussing it.

[SC_Jorgie]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

I guess I truly don't understand the desire for a conventional victory. The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. That's what makes them the threat to all life that they are. Change that to make such a victory possible and you change the entire tone of the series. And not for the better.

The bolded underlined bit sort of happens anyway.

So if the enjoyable companions, and interesting choices get cast aside in favor of my particular favorite color of explosion *I prefer red*

I'm sure as hell going to get goofy with fan theories.

They killed any "Serious" feel the series had, Now I'm going to have fun with it.

 
Thats something I won't argue with. I think that the Crucible/Catalyst fits the story. I think the concept of the choices fits (though not the explanation of what they are or their impact) unfortunately, for whatever reason, they dropped the ball at the goal line. They needed to explain the nature of the Catalyst and it's relationship to the Reapers through in game discovery and missions so that the player understood the choices they had to make at the end. Everything about the ending reeks of a management decision to cut content to get the game finished. 

Modifié par SC_Jorgie, 04 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[SC_Jorgie]

My last post messed up the quote. My comment is everything from the 'That's something ...'

Fixed now. 

Modifié par SC_Jorgie, 04 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[V-rcingetorix]

SC_Jorgie wrote...

I guess I truly don't understand the desire for a conventional victory. The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. That's what makes them the threat to all life that they are. Change that to make such a victory possible and you change the entire tone of the series. And not for the better.

A Crucible type solution is the only way to deal with them. It's the execution that's the problem. I think I understand the core of the story including what the Catalyst is and how it works. The problem is in the execution and in the lack of sufficient story reveals to bring the player to that understanding without the exposition dialogue at the end. Also, Synthesis as executed is pure magic well beyond any reasonable tech. Unforgivable for a series that has been notable for the internal consistency of its pseudo science. If Leviathon truly explains more about the Reapers, hopefully it'll make the choices at the end cleaner and more satisfying.

In order to reset the box/quote, simple add another openbracket+/quoteclosebracket. It works pretty well for me

My desire for a conventional victory is not a desire per se. In ME1 and ME2, the lore was tight with the universe, like a Mayan temple, you couldn't fit a knifeblade between the blocks of reality. Well, there were a few errors, but unimportant to the game at large.

ME3 on the other hand had an exceedingly tight lore, and a few gaps big enough to drive a fleet of Crucibles through.  Without a seamless lore/story connection, the natural response is to make up lore (or take lore that was already created/used by previous games in the series) and try to plug holes.

ME1 and ME2 did NOT state the Reapers were undefeatable by conventional means. Nowhere in the codex is that ever stated. Doom prophecies, legends, visions of destruction sure; but nowhere is it stated that a Reaper invasion would be survivable ONLY by locating a schizophrenic Superweapon. Two choices, live or die, plus the plot choices made up to that point.

If conventional victory were not possible, why would Shepard even try pushing for preparation in the first place?

[ZackG312]

OP has a point if groups of ships focus fire on a single Reaper it would take it down faster. But there a lot Reapers in the same spot. So the Alliance fleet will still a lot of casualties.

I was wondering why they didnt have groups firein on a single Reaper to disable it.

[SnakeStrike8]

Skirata129 wrote...

it struck me that a method of overwhelming the Reaper fleet has already been exploited in a modern military exercise to great effect. In an exercise pitting a low tech force against a carrier battlegroup, the Opfor commander achieved victory by swarming the carrier with PT boats armed with rocket launchers.

Ideally this might work but the Reapers do have PT boats armed with rocket launchers too, or a close equivalent. Those little occulus doohickeys that buzz around during the Earth attack. We'd need millions for this to be viable, and that's likely a million pilots and operators too. The Reapers have no such logistical restrictions, and we don't know anything about how the doohickeys are made, but if they're quick to produce, the Reapers will out-produce us in short order and start swarming us instead.
And then there's the greater problem of needing carriers to house the fighters; those can be detected at range, and once the Reapers fix their position, they'll FTL in a and vape them. Carriers are very hard to replace, especially when our production centers are being blasted open at every turn. I don't think it's ever mentioned how many fighters a single carrier can hold, but I doubt it's enough for a Reaper. We'd need to bunch up carriers to provide enough fighters for the fighting, and if they get blasted, we're out dozens of carriers.
So in short, Walon, this does seem like a solid idea, but the logistics and attrition of it will get to us, as will any other plan involving the Reapers.

[SC_Jorgie]

There are several flaws in the OP tactic.

1. It is a tactic designed to win a battle, not a war. Continued application of this tactic depends primarily on the enemy being unwilling or unable to counter it (highly unlikely with the Reapers) and that your loses do not leave you unable to continue the fight (a Pyrrhic victory).

2. The purpose of the tactic is to cripple a carrier task group by targeting the high value unit (the carrier) which is itself vulnerable (it has no armor, it carries no direct fire weapons, it's defenses are fairly limited) - get past the protection of its escorts and it can be killed. This is why the ultimate carrier killer is the submarine. The tactic does not result in the destruction of the carrier task group as a whole, in fact it avoids engaging them as much as possible. A Reaper is not a carrier. It does not share a carrier's vulnerabilities. A better comparison is that a Reaper is the equivalent of the carrier battle group itself. This tactic cannot defeat the entire battle group. It cannot defeat a Reaper.

[WhiteKnyght]

Skirata129 wrote...

you failed to address my suggestion considering the Codex specifically states that four dreadnaughts can destroy a Reaper capital ship. Meaning their combined firepower, not all four running into it, so size doesn't really matter. just how much force you bring to bear.

So where are you supposed to find millions of deadnoughts to throw at the millions of reapers? You go to Earth with literally every ounce of miltiary might you can muster and still lose without the Crucible.

The Turians, Alliance, Quarians, Geth, and Asari have already given you every warship they can muster. The number of dreadnoughts any one race can have is regulated by the Treaty of Farixen and are thus limited.(Quarian liveships with thanix cannons are not true dreadnoughts. Just glass cannons.)

And the Reapers strike at manufacturing facilities. Also you cant build a spaceship overnight and the Reapers never tire, never run out of fuel, and never rest.

So your assessment fails. Codex or no, there simply aren't enough dreadnoughts to meet that challenge.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 04 août 2012 - 02:02 .

[SC_Jorgie]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

SC_Jorgie wrote...

I guess I truly don't understand the desire for a conventional victory. The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. That's what makes them the threat to all life that they are. Change that to make such a victory possible and you change the entire tone of the series. And not for the better.

A Crucible type solution is the only way to deal with them. It's the execution that's the problem. I think I understand the core of the story including what the Catalyst is and how it works. The problem is in the execution and in the lack of sufficient story reveals to bring the player to that understanding without the exposition dialogue at the end. Also, Synthesis as executed is pure magic well beyond any reasonable tech. Unforgivable for a series that has been notable for the internal consistency of its pseudo science. If Leviathon truly explains more about the Reapers, hopefully it'll make the choices at the end cleaner and more satisfying.

In order to reset the box/quote, simple add another openbracket+/quoteclosebracket. It works pretty well for me

My desire for a conventional victory is not a desire per se. In ME1 and ME2, the lore was tight with the universe, like a Mayan temple, you couldn't fit a knifeblade between the blocks of reality. Well, there were a few errors, but unimportant to the game at large.

ME3 on the other hand had an exceedingly tight lore, and a few gaps big enough to drive a fleet of Crucibles through.  Without a seamless lore/story connection, the natural response is to make up lore (or take lore that was already created/used by previous games in the series) and try to plug holes.

ME1 and ME2 did NOT state the Reapers were undefeatable by conventional means. Nowhere in the codex is that ever stated. Doom prophecies, legends, visions of destruction sure; but nowhere is it stated that a Reaper invasion would be survivable ONLY by locating a schizophrenic Superweapon. Two choices, live or die, plus the plot choices made up to that point.

If conventional victory were not possible, why would Shepard even try pushing for preparation in the first place?

Wrote my original at work with my iPad (bad me) - editing was difficult. Fixed now.

The Lore (embodied in the Codex) does not state that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. It establishes how strong a Sovereign class is relative to the primary measure of military strength (the dreadnaught) - 4 dreadnaughts hitting a Sovereign class Reaper simultaneously can destroy it. A single shot from the Reaper, however, will destroy a dreadnaught). It then establishes the rough magnitude of the total military strength in the galaxy by discussing the number of dreadnaughts each race has.

The end of ME2 then establishes via cutscene how many Reapers are on the way (far more than the forces the galaxy can bring against them, and the shot isn't likely to be them all). This is player knowledge. Shepard has no idea how many they are up against. No one in game does. He just knows they destroyed all races that came before and, as a soldier, urges everyone to be ready to fight.

At the start of ME3 the Reapers hit. The results are devastating. Consider the destruction of the Alliance fleets. Consider the in game comments during the approach to Palavan: "The Turans are the strongest military force in the galaxy and the Reapers are annihilating them" or something to that effect. It's even acknowledged that the battle is so one-sided that had the Council races listened, it probably wouldn't have made any difference.

Listen to the conversation choices you have when talking to your companions. They have faced Reapers before. They know it's hopeless. You are saying the right things because that is what you all need to hear. It's bravado. Shepard's mission from then on is to get the resources necessary to finish the Crucible, to hold out against the Reapers long enough to deploy it, and to protect it during both phases.

Shepard is a soldier. He will not go down without a fight, regardless of how hopeless that fight might be. He will never allow others to just lay down and surrender either. Fighting on against overwhelming odds is heroic. It doesn't mean, however, that you honestly believe you have any hope of success.

During ME1 and 2, Shepard did not understand the scope of the Reaper threat. He had no way to. The player did. The game established it. Just because Shepard believed at the time that the Reapers could be beaten, without any knowledge of the Crucible, doesn't mean that the game must cater to this belief.

[Ticonderoga117]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
So where are you supposed to find millions of deadnoughts to throw at the millions of reapers?

Source?

Last time I checked, we had NO NUMBERS on how many Reapers there are that isn't a wild guess.

[V-rcingetorix]

SC_Jorgie said...
During ME1 and 2, Shepard did not understand the scope of the Reaper threat. He had no way to.

 

Yes, I see what you're saying. May I? Thank you
Shepard doesn't know what is coming, but he does. It's a nice dichotomy that the story people threw in; Shepard has the Cipher, and the warning from the Protheans in his brain/mind. He knows better then anyone else what's coming.

SC_Jorgie said...
Just because Shepard believed at the time that the Reapers could be beaten, without any knowledge of the Crucible, doesn't mean that the game must cater to this belief.

End of ME2 Reaper invasion....iffy to me. The difference between a distant Reaper and a star is somewhat indistinguishable, but I haven't seen that since before I upgraded my moniter. What I do know is that the Geth have a fleet equal to that of the Turians, and the Turians were able to turn a losing battle into a losing battle that cost the Reapers a lot of resources.

The Collector vessel takes out the SR1 Normandy with essentially 2 shots; the Normandy being the apex of Alliance/Turian technological development. Later (within 2 years) the SR2 Normandy (still a frigate) is able to take a shot from a Collector vessel, and a few of the Oculus drones, albeit with much damage. The SR2 is also able to kill the Collector vessel with its Thanix cannon, although apparently such a device was not needed to damage a Collector vessel (Vegas mission retold in ME3, the Alliance defense turrets in the Horizon mission in ME2).
Therefore, technology is increasing at a rate which would damage Reapers more heavily as time and resources are used.
Finally, the Crucible can detect any and all Reapers. Period.

~~~SPOILER ALERT! MANY USELESS NUMBERS AHEAD!! SPOILER ALERT~~~

Numbers: in three years, the ratio has gone from a fleet:1 to a 4:1. The weapons have been increased so now it is more a problem of proximity rather than futile peashooters.

Here's where it gets hairy; I advise any TLDR's to skip to the summary.

Reaper numbers: from the ME2 endshot, I estimate around 300, just from the view shown. I calculated this by dividing the screen into 4 parts and counting one quarter, then multiplying by 4 (worked in bio lab, so why not here ). This view encompasses about a third (estimated) of the Milky-Way horizon, so increase the numbers by 200% (if you know 100% of a third of the horizon) and the total comes up to 900 Reapers.

Increase the number again for offscreen Reapers; this is the difficult part. How far back to the Reapers go? Not chronologically, but dimensionally? I assume that with the maneuvering capability, the Reapers can pack themselves in pretty tight, and would want too. Even Reapers must account for distance when starting a journey. Say a depth of 100,000 km (some are reallly big, remember), but not lightyears. They're parked out there for defense, not a picnic.

So now we have in a 100,000 km by 1 galaxy (100,000 lightyears), give or take. Forgive me if I am somewhat incredulous at there being enough Reapers to extend end-to-end the length of the Milky Way, so I will impose a biased limit of around 100,000 km in width.

Since the Reapers are AI's, I will assume they would take the most efficient formation in space: the sphere. With a container width of 100,000 km and length of 100,000 km there would be a volume of about 523,598.8 km cubed. Assuming the Sovereign class Reaper volume is .3 km cubed (2 km by .5 km by .3 km), the total number of Reapers that could fit in this region of space would be 1,745,329.3 Reapers.

Not all of these Reapers would be Sovereign class however. There are Destroyers, troop transports and processor vessels as well, which pushes the number of total ships upwards.

Algebraically, this would be something like x+.08x+ .5x+ .5x= 523,598.8 km cubed (x= sovereign class, .08x= destroyer class, .5x=troop transport and processor [not listed] ships).

From this formula, I can estimate around 2,500 Sovereign Reapers and around 10,000 Destroyer class Reapers, the rest being non-AI transports and processors.


~~~END SPOILER ALERT!! NOW JUST USELESS NUMBERS!! END SPOILER ALERT~~~


SUMMARY:

Total extra-Milky Way storage volume: 520,000 km cubed.
Sovereign class Reaper volume: .3 km cubed
Destroyer Reaper volume: .0024 km cubed
Transport volume: .15 km cubed
Processor (not listed): .15 km cubed

Sovereign class numbers: 2,500
Destroyer class: 10,000
Transport.Processor: negligible, no notable weapons

At 4 dreadnoughts per Sovereign class, fighting a head-to-head battle would require perfect maneuvering and at minimum, 10,000 dreadnoughts. Destroyers would be more manageable, say a 2:1 ratio, or 20,000 Dreadnoughts or 3:1 30,000 frigates.

The codex postulates that the Reapers take a single race to make a Sovereign class Reaper, so the estimate of 2,500 Sovereign Reapers seems valid. 

Turians possess apx 50 Dreadnoughts, as do the Geth. The Quarians have at least 30 Dreadnoughts, humans and the rest of the races contributing another 30 approximately. Total: 160 dreadnoughts, plus frigates.

It is also known that the Reapers took around 1,000 years to eradicate the Protheans; whom had no final operating Crucible or fully united galaxy (slave empire doesn't count, Javik comments).

In addition, the Reapers never mass everyone all together at once. They operate by taking data from the Citadel and "farming out" the planets to groups of Reapers.

This makes the Reapers spread out, and vulnerable to individual assaults to a combined fleet. Remember, no one has ever had the ability to pinpoint the Reapers before, so overwhelming force could be used to kill small groups of Reapers before assistance could arrive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, those are the numbers and the situation as I see it. The Reapers have a whole galaxy to cover, and the locals know the territory better than the Reapers for a change. That does not mean victory, not by a long shot, but it does change how things would be done. Change is organic...could the Reapers handle organic change with only experience to draw upon?


EDIT: spacing, grammar, capitalization of the word Reaper...

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 04 août 2012 - 05:41 .

[SC_Jorgie]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

SC_Jorgie said...
During ME1 and 2, Shepard did not understand the scope of the Reaper threat. He had no way to.

 

Yes, I see what you're saying. May I? Thank you
Shepard doesn't know what is coming, but he does. It's a nice dichotomy that the story people threw in; Shepard has the Cipher, and the warning from the Protheans in his brain/mind. He knows better then anyone else what's coming.
 

 
The warning from the Protheans is very difficult to understand, as Shepard later explains to Javik. It's sufficient to convey the fact that something wicked this way comes, but not assess their actual strength. They destroyed the Protheans. Was that an easy battle for them, a difficult one, typical? There is no way to know. The Protheans also never knew the strength of the force that destroyed them because they were never able to unite their intelligence due to the loss of comms.

At 4 dreadnoughts per Sovereign class, fighting a head-to-head battle would require perfect maneuvering and at minimum, 10,000 dreadnoughts. Destroyers would be more manageable, say a 2:1 ratio, or 20,000 Dreadnoughts or 3:1 30,000 frigates.

The codex postulates that the Reapers take a single race to make a Sovereign class Reaper, so the estimate of 2,500 Sovereign Reapers seems valid. 

Turians possess apx 50 Dreadnoughts, as do the Geth. The Quarians have at least 30 Dreadnoughts, humans and the rest of the races contributing another 30 approximately. Total: 160 dreadnoughts, plus frigates.

This by any calculation constitutes overwhelming force. The preparations and advanced warning that the races received this time will no doubt result in higher Reaper loses than they have experienced before, but they are in no danger of of losing the war. Your calculations suggest the Council races require around 30,000 dreadnaughts or the firepower equivalent to take them on directly - an impossibility.

Considering massing forces and eating the elephant one bite at a time, you either have to assume that the elephant would stand still and let you eat it, or assume that your bites are really big. The problem is that you do not start the war with sufficient forces to be considered really big bites. The Reapers are methodical. They hit the high population worlds first. That takes out the centres that could possibly muster enough manufactoring capability to build this force. They also don't try to cover the entire galaxy. The reliance upon the mass relays (their tech) concentrates population centres and greatly minimizes the areas that they need to focus on. They also won't stand still. With mass relays and FLT flight, the resistance forces can never be certain that their target doesn't have reinforcements just waiting to jump into the fight. 

I would suggest that this cycle has a much higher probability of having splinter survivors than other cycles. The Reapers may well not be able to find everyone, which is a sort of victory in and of itself. This is the most likely outcome of the failure of the trap - their net misses some. NLT the current civilizations would be doomed.

Modifié par SC_Jorgie, 04 août 2012 - 04:08 .

[V-rcingetorix]

[quote]SC_Jorgie wrote...
[quote] V-rcingetorix wrote...

Turians possess apx 50 Dreadnoughts, as do the Geth. The Quarians have at least 30 Dreadnoughts, humans and the rest of the races contributing another 30 approximately. Total: 160 dreadnoughts, plus frigates.[/quote]

This by any calculation constitutes overwhelming force. The preparations and advanced warning that the races received this time will no doubt result in higher Reaper loses than they have experienced before, but they are in no danger of of losing the war. Your calculations suggest the Council races require around 30,000 dreadnaughts or the firepower equivalent to take them on directly - an impossibility.

Considering massing forces and eating the elephant one bite at a time, you either have to assume that the elephant would stand still and let you eat it, or assume that your bites are really big. The problem is that you do not start the war with sufficient forces to be considered really big bites. The Reapers are methodical. They hit the high population worlds first. That takes out the centres that could possibly muster enough manufactoring capability to build this force. They also don't try to cover the entire galaxy. The reliance upon the mass relays (their tech) concentrates population centres and greatly minimizes the areas that they need to focus on. They also won't stand still. With mass relays and FLT flight, the resistance forces can never be certain that their target doesn't have reinforcements just waiting to jump into the fight. 

I would suggest that this cycle has a much higher probability of having splinter survivors than other cycles. The Reapers may well not be able to find everyone, which is a sort of victory in and of itself. This is the most likely outcome of the failure of the trap - their net misses some. NLT the current civilizations would be doomed.

[/quote][/quote]

You would only need 10,000 Dreadnoughts to take down 2,500 Sovereign Reapers directly. For 10,000 Destroyer class Reapers you would need an equal number [1:1] of frigates (according to the codex). This, of course, is only if every allied ship were placed in perfect position, in the perfect trap, firing in the perfect synchronization. It ain't happening, especially in head-to-head (worst sort of fight for the underdog).

Reapers move, yes, but the Crucible keeps track in realtime. This negates the moving target advantage. All the Reapers are detected by the Crucible.

All. Of. Them.

This means the Alliance would be able to detect where Reapers were in relation to each other, to Mass Relays (also detected by the Crucible) and to their own forces. It may be like watching a water buffalo from ten miles away charge you down, but that's a better chance than none.

So if you wanted to go head-to-head, yes, I agree. It would fail harder than a scared porcupine in a balloon factory. But if you were to damage forces by picking off the edges, killing the isolated units (overwhelming force in a limited theatre), it would be much more possible.

Think Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox. Pick a target, watch it, go for the kill when it's isolated. Then, take as many resources and flee where no one can see you. Apparently, the Reapers can't watch darkspace the way the Crucible can.

Here the Quarians would be able to help a great deal; they know life on the road like no other species. Mobile repairs, food production, mining on the go, they got it all.

It's still impossible, but I dislike the way a final confrontation is forced. For once, the galaxy has superior intelligence (spy knowledge), the first time probably in history! Communication is not cut with the Quantum entanglers in operation, and all the species are united like never before.

General Von Clausewitz points out that intelligence is faulty, 3/4 times. With the Crucible, there is no misinterpreting the data. BioWare failed to take advantage of that little fact...something for which hundreds of commanders throughout history would have killed whole armies.

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 04 août 2012 - 09:02 .

[Skirata129]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

you failed to address my suggestion considering the Codex specifically states that four dreadnaughts can destroy a Reaper capital ship. Meaning their combined firepower, not all four running into it, so size doesn't really matter. just how much force you bring to bear.

So where are you supposed to find millions of deadnoughts to throw at the millions of reapers? You go to Earth with literally every ounce of miltiary might you can muster and still lose without the Crucible.

So your assessment fails. Codex or no, there simply aren't enough dreadnoughts to meet that challenge.

Read my entire suggestion. I think using dreadnaughts by and large would be a waste of resources and a losing tactic.

[NS Wizdum]

We don't need 4 dreadnoughts to take on a Reaper. We need 4 ships with dreadnought class main cannons. Preferably small fast-attack ships. Anything the Reapers hit is dead anyway. Theres no point in wasting resources on armor. Our biggest advantage is maneuverability, using 4 dreadnoughts would eliminate that.

Conventional victory wouldn't even be a consideration if the Reapers stayed like they were in ME1. Since then Bioware has given us too much information about them and removed their "godlike" status.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 05 août 2012 - 04:23 .

[Gladerunner]

The problem is you overinvest large weapons on very easy to destroy fighters. I admit high damage swarm tactics are effective. However, these are the reasons fighter's exist. Reaper Oculus fighters would easily counter this tactic, largely because if Oculus have enough firepower to destroy one fighter - equating for one for one trade-offs, except the loss of a Thanix cannon on our fighters.

The Quarians would have you believe Thanix cannons are commonplace, but judging from the cinematics in the battle for Rannoch...that is unlikely.

[NS Wizdum]

Gladerunner wrote...

The problem is you overinvest large weapons on very easy to destroy fighters. I admit high damage swarm tactics are effective. However, these are the reasons fighter's exist. Reaper Oculus fighters would easily counter this tactic, largely because if Oculus have enough firepower to destroy one fighter - equating for one for one trade-offs, except the loss of a Thanix cannon on our fighters.

The Quarians would have you believe Thanix cannons are commonplace, but judging from the cinematics in the battle for Rannoch...that is unlikely.

Acceptible losses. 

I don't think you can put dreadnaught class weapons on fighters, due to the power requirements. We need our fighters for the very reason you mentioned anyway, to keep the Oculus fighters at bay. Dreadnaught class cannons can be put on cargo ships, civilian crusiers, etc. Each Reaper ship can only target one alliance ship at a time. Gurilla tactics with small, heavily armed ships would work very well.

We'll never know if its possible, because the only tactic we see in the game is the "line up and shoot at the Reapers while stationary" tactic. That obviously didn't work.

[V-rcingetorix]

Interesting; according to the codex, the Thanix cannon is a scaled-down version of Sovereigns weapon.

Scaled-down. As in potentially more powerful.

In ME2, the codex states that the Turian developed weapon may be deployed on fighters and frigates.

In ME3, it is stated that a variant, the Thanix Missile is used (Battle for Earth, survive section, I think).

Make the more powerful Thanix weapon, better chances, yes?

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 05 août 2012 - 05:16 .