1098 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You know what I would have been willing to accept?

If the EMS was high 4000+ Then what we bring to bear is strong enough to kill the Reapers at Earth at 90%+ casualties for us.

We'd then dock the Crucible as Reaper reinforcements arrive. Since we broke our arms punching out Earth's Cthulhu occupiers we'd be forced to use the Crucible.

Conventional victory is overall still impossible but this way would have been a damn sight more satisfying.

[inko1nsiderate]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

No the point of that link was to prove that Thanix Cannons could be mounted on fighters, not to prove that they already are mounted on most fighters.  Wide use does not mean that every ship has a thanix cannon.  Also The alliance is not the only military force with fighters.

But in that codex it says it just brings their fire power up to that of a cruiser, and in the codexes it also says it takes 4 Dreadnoughts to kill a Reaper Dreadnought.  So I guess, the question is, can you actually reproduce the damage output of a Dreadnought with a bunch of cruisers?  It might work if you only care about total energy output, but I bet it is the intensity of the fire (eg power per time per area) that matters most when defeating Kinetic barriers.  In that case, I am skeptical fighters alone can manage that.

In reality, the way Kinetic barriers are shown and described to work in game, a more reasonable argument is to use slow moving, but powerful, explosives.  Slow moving items (such as swords) can penetrate kinetic barriers no problem.  You could probably just use your fighters as kamikazis and win.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[dreman9999]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

SO GIVE SHEPARD COMMAND OF THE FLEETS.  It really is that easy,  would add a nice SM like final fight as well.

It doesn't work that way.

The variables are NOT the same.

It is an entirely new set of circumstances that you have to account for.

So all the EMS that I have after 3100 is and should be completly redundant and useless?  Shepard has built a career on doing the impossible s/he got to Illos, s/he (at least in my playthroughs) survived a fvcking SUICIDE MISSION without losing any crewmembers.  Suddenly after knowing about what will happen for 3 YEARS s/he decides to lose it and grieve for some kid that won the fvcking Darwin Award "You can't help me" SERIOUSLY?  The reapers are not gods, they can be killed.  Case in point Nazara, "Miracle at Palaven", Tuchanka, Rannoch, Earth.  If there are enough forces brought to bear against them they CAN BE DEFEATED.  Check out this Codex entry
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

My previous point still stands.

We know the reapers vunriblilities.They have way more ships then we do, endless huskforces, no need of rest, and no need of resourses.

Sure over time we can kill one reaper with concentrated fire ...but they can take out one of our with one shot.  A fleet with ship that avergly takes out are stongest ships in one shot is not one to directly take on.

Sure we can try to over whelm them with smaller fight...But the reapers at alsonot only using the same tactic with there oculus...
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
But they are doing it in a fast production... Swarms at a time. And the Oculus can dive into our ships and destroy them form the inside out.

Sure we can try lazers, and thanix cannons..... But our ships have to be up close to us them...

[dreman9999]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

No the point of that link was to prove that Thanix Cannons could be mounted on fighters, not to prove that they already are mounted on most fighters.  Wide use does not mean that every ship has a thanix cannon.  Also The alliance is not the only military force with fighters.

But in that codex it says it just brings their fire power up to that of a cruiser, and in the codexes it also says it takes 4 Dreadnoughts to kill a Reaper Dreadnought.  So I guess, the question is, can you actually reproduce the damage output of a Dreadnought with a bunch of cruisers?  It might work if you only care about total energy output, but I bet it is the intensity of the fire (eg power per time per area) that matters most when defeating Kinetic barriers.  In that case, I am skeptical fighters alone can manage that.

In reality, the way Kinetic barriers are shown and described to work in game, a more reasonable argument is to use slow moving, but powerful, explosives.  Slow moving items (such as swords) can penetrate kinetic barriers no problem.  You could probably just use your fighters as kamikazis and win.

Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

[Temprathe]

@OP: I don't think it's possible. Nice find, but the scale of the test they ran and the Reaper war would be totally different, and would change the outcome drastically, I think.

If it takes four dreadnoughts to bring down a Reaper, there's no telling how many small frigates you would have to toss and how much ammo you would have to spend using weaker weaponry to bring down a Reaper. Let's just say forty, as an example. Forty ships to one Reaper.

Against thousands higher-class Reapers. Many thousands total in Reapers. Not to mention accounting for losses, ships that just couldn't make it...

And ammo restraints as well. Or Reaper strategies that would destroy the Thannix cannons or render the ships unable to shoot them, as that Ocular tried to do in ME2 by tearing the Normandy apart from the inside out. That also doesn't account for other frigate-sized ships the Reapers may deploy after having assumed direct control of a huskified victim, if that's possible.

And even int he ending sequence, where we see a scene not too dissimilar from what you're describing, Reaper lasers could probably tear through multiple ships, clearing a good row of them.

I really think it's a good strategy in theory, but it doesn't account for a lot of variables that we may or may not know about or limited troops/munition supplies, etc. I'm sure ships tried doing this when defending their home planets and probably found it ineffectual.

BTW, do Reaper's shields/barriers go off a percentage (such as having taken this much damage) or does it just take a force powerful enough to lower them? If the latter, then this is almost literally impossible.

[ABCoLD]

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

This isn't quite true, as a ship can pass through another ship's active kinetic barriers, even a Reaper's.

[dreman9999]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

...you didn't even read my OP did you? come up with an informed argument.

The smaller ships can't get past the kinetic barriers of a Reaper Dreadnought, regardless of number, if you are suggested sending boarding parties onto a Dreadnought then Indoctrination is a problem.  There is probably a reason why they don't arm things smaller than crusiers with Thanix canons.  Remember the Normandy SR-2?  Had a huge Eezo core?  Yeah, and remember that dialogue about how the new thanix canons were murder on the power systems?  And the SR-2 is probably the most advanced cruiser in the galaxy... 

You've added nothing to this discusssion despite coming up with an interesting bit of trivia.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#Mass_Effect_3_2

so it's specifically stated that a Thanix cannon can be mounted on a fighter.

"...their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire
reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but
mountable on a fighter or frigate."

Point to note, miniaturized versions that are only as powerful as a cruiser. Not a dreadnought as you desire.

did you see the other link to the codex about reaper vulnerabilities.  Just because one fighter with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught does not mean that 20 fighters with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught.  There are many more fighters than there are dreadnaughts.
here is the link I was talking about
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

Meet the oculus...
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus
The reapers has swarms of them to counter that. And they can take out  our ships.

[Skirata129]

I don't think we'd have to worry too much about indoctrinated captains turning on the fleet. Because of the whole reduced capability as indoctrination increases thing, they'd be at significant disadvantage compared to other pilots.

Modifié par Skirata129, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[ABCoLD]

Out of curiosity, have we ever gotten an accurate count of the Reaper's Dreadnoughts? I thought it wasn't thousands, but more like several hundred. With probably ten times that many destroyers.

[inko1nsiderate]

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

That can't be entirely correct, if it were that means the Normandy wouldn't need to get hull maintenance in a year (EDI says so in dialogue that this is due to gasses rubbing against the hull).  So that means small enough objects, or slow enough moving objects, can pierce a hull.  Moreover, if kinetic barriers block everything, how do the Occuli cut into the Normandy with the kinetic barriers still up?

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:05 .

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

This isn't quite true, as a ship can pass through another ship's active kinetic barriers, even a Reaper's.

Only if the level of the barrier is low and the ship pushe enough power. If the barrier goes full power, it's a different story.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[inko1nsiderate]

ABCoLD wrote...

Out of curiosity, have we ever gotten an accurate count of the Reaper's Dreadnoughts? I thought it wasn't thousands, but more like several hundred. With probably ten times that many destroyers.

In cutscenes it has been counted to be several hundred, like 240 or something.  It is likely that there are more Reapers than that though...

[dreman9999]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

That can't be entirely correct, if it were that means the Normandy wouldn't need to get hull maintenance in a year (EDI says so in dialogue that this is due to gasses rubbing against the hull).  So that means small enough objects, or slow enough moving objects, can pierce a hull.  Moreover, if kinetic barriers block everything, how do the Occuli cut into the Normandy with the kinetic barriers still up?

The kinetic barrier arn't on  full power all the time. You have to consider the levelof the density of the barrier and the speed the object hitting it.  The ship is only at high density feilds in battle, in travel it's low desity.

[Undead Han]

I think one of Murphy's laws applies here:



The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
 
1. When they're ready.
 
2. When you're not.


Even ignoring the fact that it would likely take years to overhaul the entire fleet even in peacetime, ss soon as ships start getting pulled into drydock to get retrofitted, the Reapers can be expected to attack those shipyards and now defenseless ships.

[ABCoLD]

dreman9999 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

This isn't quite true, as a ship can pass through another ship's active kinetic barriers, even a Reaper's.

Only if the level of the barrier is low and the ship gives enough. If it goes full power, it's a different story.

I'mma gonna need an in-game reference, or canon book reference.  Even if it's a vague remembrance, tell me where you heard this categorically stated.

[iamweaver]

ABCoLD wrote...

Out of curiosity, have we ever gotten an accurate count of the Reaper's Dreadnoughts? I thought it wasn't thousands, but more like several hundred. With probably ten times that many destroyers.

No one has posted any real count.  Even if you counted the number of streaks on the ME1 shot of a portion of the Reaper fleet, there's no way of knowing the ship classes.

But let's be honest.  There are at least 20,000 cycles worth of reaped civilizations, either as Destroyers or capital class ships.  It's probably a whole bunch of ships - even if you assume that over time, half of them - even 2/3 of them, got destroyed during the reaping process from conflict, or were during cycles where there was not species "worthy" of being raised to capital-class status.

[Skirata129]

Han Shot First wrote...


Even ignoring the fact that it would likely take years to overhaul the entire fleet even in peacetime,

Overhauls and construction are incredibly fastin wartime compared to peacetime, because resources and manpower are diverted from civillian jobs to produce as much materiel as possible as fast as possible.

[satunnainen]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

No the point of that link was to prove that Thanix Cannons could be mounted on fighters, not to prove that they already are mounted on most fighters.  Wide use does not mean that every ship has a thanix cannon.  Also The alliance is not the only military force with fighters.

But in that codex it says it just brings their fire power up to that of a cruiser, and in the codexes it also says it takes 4 Dreadnoughts to kill a Reaper Dreadnought.  So I guess, the question is, can you actually reproduce the damage output of a Dreadnought with a bunch of cruisers?  It might work if you only care about total energy output, but I bet it is the intensity of the fire (eg power per time per area) that matters most when defeating Kinetic barriers.  In that case, I am skeptical fighters alone can manage that.

In reality, the way Kinetic barriers are shown and described to work in game, a more reasonable argument is to use slow moving, but powerful, explosives.  Slow moving items (such as swords) can penetrate kinetic barriers no problem.  You could probably just use your fighters as kamikazis and win.

No, it means that the fighter with thanix has about the same firepower as cruiser without thanix. Cruiser with thanix has obviously more, and so on. 

Also it takes 4 dreadnoughts with thanix to destroy a reaper, not just any dreadnoughts.

[AlanC9]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I still support using time travel as a valid alternative to using the plot device.

I'm glad someone's taking this thread as seriously as it deserves to be.

[ABCoLD]

Skirata129 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Even ignoring the fact that it would likely take years to overhaul the entire fleet even in peacetime,

Overhauls and construction are incredibly fastin wartime compared to peacetime, because resources and manpower are diverted from civillian jobs to produce as much materiel as possible as fast as possible.

By ME3 most vessels are already outfitted with Thanix cannons and such.  At least in the Earth's military.  I expect between Hackett and Anderson they were able to get the Alliance military to do an expedited upgrade program, probably pushed through as a need to be the best in the face of Batarian aggression, even if they couldn't use the Reaper angle.

[Skirata129]

If the alliance fleet had them installed, we certainly didn't see it.

EDIT: probably oversight on Bioware's part though.

Modifié par Skirata129, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

did you see the other link to the codex about reaper vulnerabilities.  Just because one fighter with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught does not mean that 20 fighters with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught.  There are many more fighters than there are dreadnaughts.
here is the link I was talking about
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

Unfortunately there are also many oculi swarming around their ships whose job specifically is to keep fighters away. We keep forgetting this very conveniently. By the time they're done with the oculi their ranks would have thinned considerably.

[Conniving_Eagle]

ABCoLD wrote...

Out of curiosity, have we ever gotten an accurate count of the Reaper's Dreadnoughts? I thought it wasn't thousands, but more like several hundred. With probably ten times that many destroyers.

No. The most Reapers ever seen was 295. We've seen them in small groups 2-5 on planetside and patrolling the relays. I highly doubt there are 1,000 dreadnoughts.

[ABCoLD]

satunnainen wrote...
No, it means that the fighter with thanix has about the same firepower as cruiser without thanix. Cruiser with thanix has obviously more, and so on. 

Also it takes 4 dreadnoughts with thanix to destroy a reaper, not just any dreadnoughts.

Actually they just state that 4 Dreadnoughts can take out a Reaper, and after that state that Thanix weapons are even better than conventional weapons.  They don't necessarily state that you must have Thanix to take it out.

[ABCoLD]

Skirata129 wrote...

If the alliance fleet had them installed, we certainly didn't see it.

EDIT: probably oversight on Bioware's part though.

Basically, according to the Codex they had them.