1098 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeStrike8]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

It's still impossible, but I dislike the way a final confrontation is forced. For once, the galaxy has superior intelligence (spy knowledge), the first time probably in history! Communication is not cut with the Quantum entanglers in operation, and all the species are united like never before.

To be fair, this was more of a limitation associated with ME 3 being a game rather than real life. We had to have a final confrontation at the end of the third act to end the game.
In real life, assaulting Earth is obviously a terrible idea, especially when one considers the Prothean VI's scrap of intel: The Reapers have 'consolidated' forces around Earth. I interpret that as meaning that they've assembled a great deal of their force, likely mostly Sovereign-class dreadnaughts, around Earth. Which means, in turn, that there's fewer Reapers in other threaters. Fewer Reapers on Tuchanka, Palaven, Thessia, and so on. Logically, then, the right option for Hackett would have been to send the huge fleet he has against Palaven instead of Earth, where there are fewer Reapers, and the ones that are there are likely all destroyers rather than dreadnaughts. Against thost odds, the fleet would have had a solid fighting chance. At that point, the Reaper commander (and let's assume that there is a single commander, for the sake of simplicity) would have to choose: reduce the defenses of Earth to counter the allied assault on Palaven, or pull more Reapers out of other fronts to do the same. In the case of the former, Earth gets more breathing room, and in the latter, the other fronts get weaker for our attack on them. A good outcome for us!
But, as I said earlier, ME 3 was a video game, and had to have an ending. So we got the contrived final attack that would have made any strategy or RTS gamer shake his head and rage at the screen.

[V-rcingetorix]

True, that. As a game, it needs a closing Final Fight kind of thing (series of fights in an overall major fight), which ME3 missed delivering as a Boss level.

Fine; missing Boss level, missing ending...but the rest of it was great, right?

[SnakeSNMF]

This is a bit late, but..

>effective millitary strength
>DETERMINES HOW THE CRUCIBLE WORKS

so how many ships we have
determines how well our scientists build the Crucible?

It's really, really, retarded, that they didn't make seperate things for it. But I suppose Bioware's been retarded since Dragon Age II, and that they don't really care for their fans, they want to force horrible plot-holes onto it's consumers without care to the people whom actually bought it.

They wanted to go the fast route. And for what they did, ME3 was great. I just wish they would've expanded onto the narrative and gave more ultimate options, of which they preached, but ultimately failed.

[Skirata129]

edit to make this the conventional theory support thread rather than just discussing applications of a single war game to the ME universe.

[NS Wizdum]

Paulomedi wrote...

With the current script and lore, conventional victory is impossible. Read Koobismo for a different and expanded fanfiction that may make it possible.

Except, the only thing we have backing up the "its impossible" statement, is the statement itself. Hackett said its impossible, so we're just suposed to believe that? The man's tactics are asinine.

[V-rcingetorix]

Paulomedi wrote...

With the current script and lore, conventional victory is impossible. Read Koobismo for a different and expanded fanfiction that may make it possible.

Actually, according to the codex, "experts believe that with the right tactics, a conventional victory could be won."

Getting the right tactics in time is the problem.

[Ticonderoga117]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Paulomedi wrote...

With the current script and lore, conventional victory is impossible. Read Koobismo for a different and expanded fanfiction that may make it possible.

Actually, according to the codex, "experts believe that with the right tactics, a conventional victory could be won."

Getting the right tactics in time is the problem.

Just look at the Beam Run and the Final Space Battle and say "Not that."

[chemiclord]

I don't think conventional victory over Reaper forces is inherently "impossible." I DO believe, however, that thanks to all the bureaucratic nonesense, galactic leaders burying their heads in the sand and hoping the problem would just go away, military forces doing nothing but the bare minimum, that a conventional victory for the current cycle was impossible.

And I also believe that was supposed to be the point.

[MegaSovereign]

chemiclord wrote...

I don't think conventional victory over Reaper forces is inherently "impossible." I DO believe, however, that thanks to all the bureaucratic nonesense, galactic leaders burying their heads in the sand and hoping the problem would just go away, military forces doing nothing but the bare minimum, that a conventional victory for the current cycle was impossible.

And I also believe that was supposed to be the point.

Exactly. Most of the Galaxy did not heed Shepard's warnings.

[Dan Dark]

Has anyone mentioned this yet? Yes? No? Meh, I don't feel like digging through 40 pages to check... so.

Just for the sake of disarming some of the "but we're told a conventional victory is impossible" arguments... tactics like put forth in the OP are not actually "conventional." Rather, that commander's tactics were pretty much the very definition of "non-conventional." And in that light, yeah, it does make sense to say a "conventional" victory would be impossible - if we approach the Reapers like we would any normal organic opponent, you're right, it's definitely not going to work. Non-conventional tactics are a must. Or, in simpler terms, people need to "think outside the box."

Short version! - I doubt anyone would mind if a victory over the Reapers would technically be non-conventional, as most of the complaints have little to do with tactics, but rather the forced use of the Crucible, and the appearance of the Catalyst.

[Tyyrlym]

We were told that Sovereign/Saren were unstoppable. So far ahead we can't catch him and in charge of forces we can't even comprehend. The game ends with Saren dead and Sovereign in pieces.

We were told that eh final mission would be pure suicide. At the end the Collector base exploded and we walked out with zero casualties.

We were told that a convention victory is impossible... and everyone accepted it, never even tried, and we are forced to accept Starbrat's A/B/C decision.

It's about themes.

[Captain McBuck]

Yeah.using that fleet to assault Earth when they did was quite posable the single most retarted decision in the game, the Reapers had the bulk of there forces at Earth Orbit.Which I'm taken to believe - a majority of the Reaper Sovereign class Capital ships. leaving other sectors with only enough to put down local resistance forces...so sending the Victory Fleet to Palavan or Thessia would have actually made a better move. tactically speaking. the reapers would then have to choose between coming out to fight the Victory Fleet leaving Earth open for a counter-attack or sitting pretty at the Citidel - and Reapers on Guard Duty are Reapers not Reaping.

[MegaSovereign]

Tyyrlym wrote...

We were told that Sovereign/Saren were unstoppable. So far ahead we can't catch him and in charge of forces we can't even comprehend. The game ends with Saren dead and Sovereign in pieces.

We were told that eh final mission would be pure suicide. At the end the Collector base exploded and we walked out with zero casualties.

We were told that a convention victory is impossible... and everyone accepted it, never even tried, and we are forced to accept Starbrat's A/B/C decision.

It's about themes.

Do you know how tactically stupid it would be to throw everything at the Reapers without some sort of plan?

Even devoting resources to building the Crucible was a bit risky. Would you risk hundreds of billions of lives on a conventional war? 

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 06 août 2012 - 05:21 .

[NS Wizdum]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Tyyrlym wrote...

We were told that Sovereign/Saren were unstoppable. So far ahead we can't catch him and in charge of forces we can't even comprehend. The game ends with Saren dead and Sovereign in pieces.

We were told that eh final mission would be pure suicide. At the end the Collector base exploded and we walked out with zero casualties.

We were told that a convention victory is impossible... and everyone accepted it, never even tried, and we are forced to accept Starbrat's A/B/C decision.

It's about themes.

Do you know how tactically stupid it would be to throw everything at the Reapers without some sort of plan?

Even devoting resources to building the Crucible was a bit risky. Would you risk hundreds of billions of lives on a conventional war? 

Any plan is better than Hackett's "line up and shoot at them while stationary" plan, even no plan. At least if there was no plan, there would be some chaos to screw up the Reaper's counter-attack.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 06 août 2012 - 05:49 .

[ZerebusPrime]

I don't know how kinetic barriers work. Can slow things pass through them? If so, I have an idea, courtesy of Star Wars Episode II.

Buzz Droids. Lots and lots of buzz droids. Little robots that hack and slash and hack and slash and hack and slash at a Reaper's hull until they can hack and slash no more. Manufacture them by the zillions with the same mini-fabricators used to make just about everything else in this setting. Use on any Reaper dumb enough to land on the ground or enter an atmosphere (the ones in space probably move too quickly relative to any dispersal method we can come up with - they'll bounce off the shields). Set the robots to self destruct after an hour of operation to avoid capture and maximize damage to the target.

At the very least, it can keep Reaper point defense systems occupied. At best, the little buzz bots will open holes and weaken offensive and defensive systems.

[Skirata129]

that is an idea. they would probably be pretty inexpensive.

[sharkboy421]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Tyyrlym wrote...

We were told that Sovereign/Saren were unstoppable. So far ahead we can't catch him and in charge of forces we can't even comprehend. The game ends with Saren dead and Sovereign in pieces.

We were told that eh final mission would be pure suicide. At the end the Collector base exploded and we walked out with zero casualties.

We were told that a convention victory is impossible... and everyone accepted it, never even tried, and we are forced to accept Starbrat's A/B/C decision.

It's about themes.

Do you know how tactically stupid it would be to throw everything at the Reapers without some sort of plan?

Even devoting resources to building the Crucible was a bit risky. Would you risk hundreds of billions of lives on a conventional war? 

I think what Tyyrlym was getting at was thematic consistency.  Both 1 and 2 present Shepard with "impossible" odds and both times Shepard comes out swaggering like a boss with that cheeky smirk.  I was definitly expecting something similar for 3.  Yes I was expecting the battle to be hard and the allied forces would walk away with a significant limp but Shep would be there again, swaggering out of the destroyed corpse of Harbinger with that same cheeky smirk.  I know its very cheesy and cliched but I always felt ME followed a some what predictable story line.  The characters and individual events made it unique, but the overall story has been done so many times. 

[Thaa_solon]

It's not impossible........with Asteroids

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Okay here's my foolproof plan.

We start gathering lots of people and turn them into smoothies.

We then use those smoothies to build giant death bots.

We then have the giant death bots kill us so the giant death bots that we didn't build don't get to!

That's waaaay more artistic and edgy than the tripe we got!!!

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 06 août 2012 - 06:39 .

[sethdil]

Skirata129 wrote...

you failed to address my suggestion considering the Codex specifically states that four dreadnaughts can destroy a Reaper capital ship. Meaning their combined firepower, not all four running into it, so size doesn't really matter. just how much force you bring to bear.

There lies the problem with conventional warfare, my opinion. 4 dreadnaughts to destroy a single Reaper captial ship, you then have to factor in damage to the dreadnaughts during the exchange, repair time and loss of life. So in effect each exchange depletes your fighting force.

For conventional warfare to have a hope you have to have Air support, ground support and supply lines, if any of those components falter your war is over. The reapers need no supply lines, their troops do not eat, they need no fuel their ships are core driven while ours need fuel. Reapers employ magnetohydrodynamic weapons while we employ projectile weapons this means we need ammo. Conventional warfare applies when you have two similar fighting forces and the technology seperating them is not so huge as to completely tip the scales of war.

To break it down

Alliance
Fuel based ships
personal constraints
Build time and repair time on damaged ships (1st reaper attack)
Projectial based weaponary
Needs to establish wartime supply lines to front lines
Fighting an unknown enemy

Reaper forces
Core based ships (no fuel needed)
No personal constraints the ships are AI controled and ground troops can be made on site (aka husks..ect)
Their main forces were not depleted before conflict began (aka first reaper attack)
magnetohydrodynamic weapon
No supply lines needed (troops dont eat, weapons need no ammo, ships no fuel)
They have experience they have done this song and dance for tens of thousands of years

If the species of the galaxy had united right after the first reaper and had started to build military might (ships, shock troops, research advance weaponary based on Geth and reaper ruins), had drawn up contingency plans for war and acceptable losses including what systems were critical to the upcoming war effort, install a draft for personal and devote all manufacturing to war assests then maybe a conventional war might have worked. As it is the allied forces realized the scope of the Reaper threat to late and at that point only a "superweapon" held any hope.

Modifié par sethdil, 06 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 06 août 2012 - 06:42 .

[Galifreya]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

Do they really? Where the blazes do they get the metal? I thought they didn't need "supplies"? Are Reapers bigger on the inside? Do they mine for ore simultaneously as they Reap? I'm not being confontational, this is just brand new information to me. =O

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Gallifreya wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

Do they really? Where the blazes do they get the metal? I thought they didn't need "supplies"? Are Reapers bigger on the inside? Do they mine for ore simultaneously as they Reap? I'm not being confontational, this is just brand new information to me. =O

The whole "They shoot liquid metal" is mentioned in the codex.

So yes they techinically have ammo that they could theoretically run out of.