1098 réponses à ce sujet

[sethdil]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

True enough however they do not need supply lines as a conventional force would.

Modifié par sethdil, 06 août 2012 - 06:52 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rubios wrote...


You chose to die free and you died, time to deal with it.

Better than the green explosion.

[Ledgend1221]

The Alliance has the same guns as the Reapers.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

sethdil wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

True enough however they do not need supply lines as a conventional force would

Oh I'm not arguing that. It just bugs me when people think the Reapers have beam weapons that are effective at long range.

Because in ME lasers are short range weapons only.

[Ticonderoga117]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

Do they really? Where the blazes do they get the metal? I thought they didn't need "supplies"? Are Reapers bigger on the inside? Do they mine for ore simultaneously as they Reap? I'm not being confontational, this is just brand new information to me. =O

The whole "They shoot liquid metal" is mentioned in the codex.

So yes they techinically have ammo that they could theoretically run out of.

Probably not much of a problem for resupply though. Hover over to an asteroid and nom nom on it until you're refilled.

[sethdil]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Reapers shoot liquified metal at incredibly fast speeds.

So no it's not an energy weapon.

Do they really? Where the blazes do they get the metal? I thought they didn't need "supplies"? Are Reapers bigger on the inside? Do they mine for ore simultaneously as they Reap? I'm not being confontational, this is just brand new information to me. =O

The whole "They shoot liquid metal" is mentioned in the codex.

So yes they techinically have ammo that they could theoretically run out of.

Probably not much of a problem for resupply though. Hover over to an asteroid and nom nom on it until you're refilled.

or one could assume that strip mining an occupied planet would give them the materials the need, which is then converted on the fly at the captial ships..the larger problem is supply troops other needed materials in a substained war such as clothing, food and of course the stresses of constant battle that AIs would not feel. AIs would feel no battle fatigue or stress, could fight 24/7.

Yea I apologize about the energy weapon I did correct it, the principle applies is that the line between us and them is to large for conventional warfare that late in the game

Modifié par sethdil, 06 août 2012 - 07:05 .

[billzo]

It doesn't fking work. It just doesn't work. They've been wiping out civilizations for 1 billion years. They have us on everything, numbers and firepower. They swarm our ground forces and have far more fighter planes. It. Doesn't. Work. Hackett confirms it early on. There is just no way.

[Ticonderoga117]

billzo wrote...

It doesn't fking work. It just doesn't work. They've been wiping out civilizations for 1 billion years. They have us on everything, numbers and firepower. They swarm our ground forces and have far more fighter planes. It. Doesn't. Work. Hackett confirms it early on. There is just no way.

Wiping out civilizations because they cut the head off by using the Citadel and then locking down the relays, niether of which they did this time.

Numbers? Source? I call BS on them having more ships than us. If they did, we wouldn't have stood a single chance at Earth in delivering the Crucible.
Firepower is close.
They can have all the "fighter planes" they want, but they only go about 500 mph and are stuck to below 20,000 feet give or take.
Hackett gives up after one battle so we are forced to use the Crucible. This is not how any military force works.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 06 août 2012 - 08:10 .

[babachewie]

Refuse pretty shuts this argument down. If conventional victory was possible it would of been included in the game

[Ticonderoga117]

babachewie wrote...

Refuse pretty shuts this argument down. If conventional victory was possible it would of been included in the game

Not really. The only reason it's not possible is because BioWare made everyone a moron.
Hackett: "I lost one whole fleet for no reason."
Defense Committee: "ZOMG! What are we going to do!"
Anderson: "I'm not trained in commanding ground forces, so let's just RUSH THE BEAM!"
Every person working on the Crucible: "We have the plans, we know how the tech works, but we have no idea what this thing does, nor are we going to test it. AT ALL."
Hackett (again): "Hey, let's build this device THAT ISN'T COMPLETE in design and NOT DO ANYTHING ELSE."
Shepard: *Gives awesome speech* SO BE IT. "Awww..." *Dies like a wuss*

Everyone is a moron in ME3 so that no other conceivable plan or motion is ever undertaken at ANY time. Ever.

[Rip504]

UUoootin Augin Slughfin.

This is the brainless thread right?

I would not say BW or the in game characters are the "morons" in this situation.... I think it hits a bit closer to homebase...

Modifié par Rip504, 06 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[saracen16]

Chest-pounding jargon, military bravado... Never mind what all the characters in the game, who are actually IN the Mass Effect universe, are saying about the impossibility of defeating the Reapers conventionally let alone defeating them altogether... They know their disposition inside-out, and frankly, they can not win down-and-dirty. And Rip's right: the only moronic ideas are those regarding the possibility of a "conventional" victory... all to mask a childish hatred for the entire ME3 storyline, cursing against fate and wanting ME3 to be done their way or the high way...

Drop it, guys, seriously. This argument has been buried many times. It's time to focus on the future of the ME franchise and the debates regarding the endings.

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...

Chest-pounding jargon, military bravado... Never mind what all the characters in the game, who are actually IN the Mass Effect universe, are saying about the impossibility of defeating the Reapers conventionally let alone defeating them altogether... They know their disposition inside-out, and frankly, they can not win down-and-dirty. And Rip's right: the only moronic ideas are those regarding the possibility of a "conventional" victory... all to mask a childish hatred for the entire ME3 storyline, cursing against fate and wanting ME3 to be done their way or the high way...

Drop it, guys, seriously. This argument has been buried many times. It's time to focus on the future of the ME franchise and the debates regarding the endings.

Who are written by the people who are forcing the Crucible solution down out throats.

Nevermind in previous games that we have literally done the impossible.

This arguement has only been buried by "HURR, no you can't win because we say so, durr."

[Lord Goose]

Who are written by the people who are forcing the Crucible
solution down out throats.

Not that I do not understand your point, and not that I do not like idea about conventional victory, but don't you think its too late? The game is released and endings are defined.

Making conventional (without Crucible) victory possible also means that the whole plot should have been revised at very least.

[saracen16]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Chest-pounding jargon, military bravado... Never mind what all the characters in the game, who are actually IN the Mass Effect universe, are saying about the impossibility of defeating the Reapers conventionally let alone defeating them altogether... They know their disposition inside-out, and frankly, they can not win down-and-dirty. And Rip's right: the only moronic ideas are those regarding the possibility of a "conventional" victory... all to mask a childish hatred for the entire ME3 storyline, cursing against fate and wanting ME3 to be done their way or the high way...

Drop it, guys, seriously. This argument has been buried many times. It's time to focus on the future of the ME franchise and the debates regarding the endings.

Who are written by the people who are forcing the Crucible solution down out throats.

That's how the story goes. Refuse the Crucible and die. Are you willing to do 

Nevermind in previous games that we have literally done the impossible.

Against conventional enemies, yes. We can beat one Reaper conventionally. We can destroy an entire base and its attendant Collectors in one stroke. But we can't beat the Reapers because of many reasons (see below).

This arguement has only been buried by "HURR, no you can't win because we say so, durr."

Actually, no, you're the one refusing to listen. Never mind that the context of the trilogy is a race against time to defeat an undefeatable enemy.

1. They don't require supply lines or planets, but we do. Every time a planet falls, a mass relay is destroyed, or a fleet goes into battle, we lose our supply lines because it means less planets and less ships to defend them.

2. They don't require morale. We do. They've got an inexhaustible supply of ships and troops, and they have the turians against the wall. Even with the galaxy's might, there is no way we can continue to fight them and expect our morale to be high when we lose exhaustion and - as evidenced by the game - momentum.

3. They are without number. We have numbers. But they're too many. They've spanned eons of cycles and have become increasingly efficient at their task. They've learned and adapted. That they managed to reach those numbers from ONE REAPER initially is a miracle on its own.

4. They are intelligent and more advanced than we are technologically and tactically. We can hope to beat one battle, but strategically and logistically, they will beat us.

And there are others in the game's story and codex. This is not "because we say so". This is because it's there and you're saying it's possible. Do not ignore the proof before you.

[Ticonderoga117]

Lord Goose wrote...

Who are written by the people who are forcing the Crucible
solution down out throats.

Not that I do not understand your point, and not that I do not like idea about conventional victory, but don't you think its too late? The game is released and endings are defined.

Making conventional (without Crucible) victory possible also means that the whole plot should have been revised at very least.

Of course it's too late, but that doesn't make it impossible from an in-universe standpoint.
Plus, I really dislike the Crucible as it is. It's a horrible plot device.

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...
That's how the story goes. Refuse the Crucible and die. Are you willing to do

And that's bad storytelling.

Against conventional enemies, yes. We can beat one Reaper conventionally. We can destroy an entire base and its attendant Collectors in one stroke. But we can't beat the Reapers because of many reasons (see below).

1. They don't require supply lines or planets, but we do. Every time a planet falls, a mass relay is destroyed, or a fleet goes into battle, we lose our supply lines because it means less planets and less ships to defend them.

2. They don't require morale. We do. They've got an inexhaustible supply of ships and troops, and they have the turians against the wall. Even with the galaxy's might, there is no way we can continue to fight them and expect our morale to be high when we lose exhaustion and - as evidenced by the game - momentum.

3. They are without number. We have numbers. But they're too many. They've spanned eons of cycles and have become increasingly efficient at their task. They've learned and adapted. That they managed to reach those numbers from ONE REAPER initially is a miracle on its own.

4. They are intelligent and more advanced than we are technologically and tactically. We can hope to beat one battle, but strategically and logistically, they will beat us.

And there are others in the game's story and codex. This is not "because we say so". This is because it's there and you're saying it's possible. Do not ignore the proof before you.

1. The Reapers are slow and methodical. They are not quick because they don't care. Considering this, while Earth may be down, the rest of the Alliance is a-ok and still producing. Besides, they do need resources, they need to refill thier main weapons and get materials to build husk implants. Plus, to them we are resources.

2. Morale, sure. Material and ships? No. There are only X amount of Reapers. X amount of Destroyers. X amount of Occuli. They don't spring up out of the ground.

3. Again, they are not invincible, nor without number. There is only so many of them. Husks are the only "unlimited" portion of thier forces because as long as we are still kicking, theres a CHANCE they can make another husk, but since this is a space-war problem, this isn't too worrying.

4. They are also prone to not "thinking outside the box". Do the same plan cycle after cycle against people who developed along the lines they wanted. Deviate from that, and you can be a big pain in the butt.

Plus, the codex has this:

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the
Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy.
This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence,
weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

We never develop any ot these because the Crucible or Bust.

[Lord Goose]

Of course it's too late, but that doesn't make it impossible
from an in-universe standpoint.

It is already done, since the plot relies on it. You may disagree with authorial intent, but it is impossible to deny it, even if it was shoved in your throat.

Personally, I actually think that it would have been nice idea, but not without weak points.

For example, where would not be battle for Earth. In current plot it was believeable, since all races together decided that they should use Crucible, and Citadel was moved to Earth. Hence, united Galaxy came to Sol System.

If where is no Crucible (or another plot device, for example Reaper's MegaBrain, essentially Catalyst), where is no reason to go to Earth. No more than going on Palaven or Thessia.

Also, conventional victory probably would take years and years to achieve and we would not have personal impact on the events.

[Ticonderoga117]

Lord Goose wrote...
It is already done, since the plot relies on it. You may disagree with authorial intent, but it is impossible to deny it, even if it was shoved in your throat.

Personally, I actually think that it would have been nice idea, but not without weak points.

For example, where would not be battle for Earth. In current plot it was believeable, since all races together decided that they should use Crucible, and Citadel was moved to Earth. Hence, united Galaxy came to Sol System.

If where is no Crucible (or another plot device, for example Reaper's MegaBrain, essentially Catalyst), where is no reason to go to Earth. No more than going on Palaven or Thessia.

Also, conventional victory probably would take years and years to achieve and we would not have personal impact on the events.

Honestly, I wouldn't feel bad about losing the battle for Earth. It wasn't a good mission except for talking to squaddies.

Palaven you need to go there to get the best hope for convetional victory, Primarch Victus. This guy writes the book on "not fighting them by the book" which is what we needed. Sadly, that never came into play.

Thessia can still exist because there's some tech in that beacon that can help.

It's a war, we can still have a personal impact on the MAJOR events. We just don't need to be involved in everything. Shepard shouldn't be the only competent person around.

[Aquarius87]

when I saw the Normany obliterating the Collector ship in the end of ME2, with the Thanix Cannon...I had hope....

seems the Reapers didnt bother to give the Collectors enough funding -.-*

[Rip504]

You dislike the Crucible,but ask for the same amount of space magic to win conventionally?

Every reason you state can be countered by in-game statistics. You fail to give an example of conventional victory in specifics. One or two things is not enough. Speeches are not enough. We want you to give us a fully detailed reason as to why it is possible. While naming and countering every in game statistic standing in your way. Then after you make up reasons,I want you to describe how the Reapers would respond to your tactics. I then want you to tell me how you will counter these new unknown Reaper Tactics. Etc.

Ignore Thanix Cannon Math. Ignore Billions of Allied Deaths(on every planet). Ignore while they kill billions,we kill single digit numbers. Less then 10 Reapers have fallen,while killing Billions. How will this change? Because you say so? Supply lines,do no exist. Indoctrination,etc etc etc.

OOtin LaugIn Nuapfhin.

Derp Derp,Javik States Reapers can also adapt to new tactics and overcome.  Hence the Arrival of the Reapers after ME1 stopped the signal,and Arrival stopped the Relay jump... Reapers still got here...

Also how do you know there are not more Reapers still in Dark space? Because of the events in ME1&2 slowing them down. Maybe this is the first assualt. Maybe they assualt in waves,like in ME3MP. The Crucible could still effect any Reapers in Dark Sace,while conventional means could not. If a signal can be relayed into Dark Space,well so can the Crucible.

Modifié par Rip504, 06 août 2012 - 09:36 .

[draken-heart]

the only reason it is impossible is because it was written to be impossible. for all we know the Crucible could have been a giant shut the reaper kinetic barriers and weapons off button, weakening them so they can be destroyed the normal way.

[saracen16]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...
That's how the story goes. Refuse the Crucible and die. Are you willing to do

And that's bad storytelling.

Your opinion.

Against conventional enemies, yes. We can beat one Reaper conventionally. We can destroy an entire base and its attendant Collectors in one stroke. But we can't beat the Reapers because of many reasons (see below).

1. They don't require supply lines or planets, but we do. Every time a planet falls, a mass relay is destroyed, or a fleet goes into battle, we lose our supply lines because it means less planets and less ships to defend them.

2. They don't require morale. We do. They've got an inexhaustible supply of ships and troops, and they have the turians against the wall. Even with the galaxy's might, there is no way we can continue to fight them and expect our morale to be high when we lose exhaustion and - as evidenced by the game - momentum.

3. They are without number. We have numbers. But they're too many. They've spanned eons of cycles and have become increasingly efficient at their task. They've learned and adapted. That they managed to reach those numbers from ONE REAPER initially is a miracle on its own.

4. They are intelligent and more advanced than we are technologically and tactically. We can hope to beat one battle, but strategically and logistically, they will beat us.

And there are others in the game's story and codex. This is not "because we say so". This is because it's there and you're saying it's possible. Do not ignore the proof before you.

1. The Reapers are slow and methodical. They are not quick because they don't care. Considering this, while Earth may be down, the rest of the Alliance is a-ok and still producing. Besides, they do need resources, they need to refill thier main weapons and get materials to build husk implants. Plus, to them we are resources.

Arcturus station is destroyed, and the Alliance is building the Crucible. I doubt they could muster the strength to destroy them.

2. Morale, sure. Material and ships? No. There are only X amount of Reapers. X amount of Destroyers. X amount of Occuli. They don't spring up out of the ground.

X amount of Reapers over eons (billions of years) = Eons / 50,000 years = 2 x Eons / 10^5 = 2 x 10 ^ 9 / 10^ 5 = 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers AT LEAST + more than that amount of destroyers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What the allied forces of the galaxy have.

3. Again, they are not invincible, nor without number. There is only so many of them. Husks are the only "unlimited" portion of thier forces because as long as we are still kicking, theres a CHANCE they can make another husk, but since this is a space-war problem, this isn't too worrying.

TOO many of them, and they are invincible as a whole. Countless eons prove that they are unstoppable and undefeated. There is no race that has survived beyond 50,000 years. And even in space do the warriors need resources. The Reapers in the space war, following your "logic", do not require supply lines for husks or otherwise as they can defeat the organics by cutting off their supply lines.

4. They are also prone to not "thinking outside the box". Do the same plan cycle after cycle against people who developed along the lines they wanted. Deviate from that, and you can be a big pain in the butt.

A big pain in the butt isn't going to kill the Reapers, just slow them down.

Plus, the codex has this:

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the
Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy.
This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence,
weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

We never develop any ot these because the Crucible or Bust.

The organic civilizations have had eons to do that, to learn from the past. There is no indication that they can be beaten conventionally. Here's the Codex again for you:

"The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate in the intelligence community.The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters."There's more...

[Ticonderoga117]

saracen16 wrote...
Arcturus station is destroyed, and the Alliance is building the Crucible. I doubt they could muster the strength to destroy them.

Simple, don't build the hazy plot device of uncertainty.

X amount of Reapers over eons (billions of years) = Eons / 50,000 years = 2 x Eons / 10^5 = 2 x 10 ^ 9 / 10^ 5 = 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers AT LEAST + more than that amount of destroyers

An estimation. A guess. They could only have 300 Capital class Reapers for all we know.

TOO many of them, and they are invincible as a whole. Countless eons prove that they are unstoppable and undefeated. There is no race that has survived beyond 50,000 years. And even in space do the warriors need resources. The Reapers in the space war, following your "logic", do not require supply lines for husks or otherwise as they can defeat the organics by cutting off their supply lines.

Don't fight them as a whole. That's stupid. Defeat in detail.

A big pain in the butt isn't going to kill the Reapers, just slow them down.

How do you know?

The organic civilizations have had eons to do that, to learn from the past. There is no indication that they can be beaten conventionally. Here's the Codex again for you:

"The Reapers are technologically superior to the organic species of the galaxy -- but the degree of that superiority is a matter of debate in the intelligence community.The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period.Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws. Reapers usually destroy fuel infrastructure rather than attempting to capture it intact, indicating that Reapers do not require organic species' energy supplies. Consequently, the Reapers attack without regard for maintaining supply lines behind them, except to move husks from one planet to another. Unlike Citadel ships, Reapers do not appear to discharge static buildup from their drive cores, although they sometimes appear wreathed in static discharge when they land on planets.The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers.The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters."There's more...

Because no one else even knew Reapers existed until they knock on your door. We were different thanks to the Protheans. Plus, all we need is a single piece of tech that negates thier kinetic barrier advantage. That's it, and we have crude forms already.