1098 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Slow moving object are only effective with kinetic barriers for people as a safty mearse. Ship kinatic barriers block an y speed progectile no matter the speed.

This isn't quite true, as a ship can pass through another ship's active kinetic barriers, even a Reaper's.

Only if the level of the barrier is low and the ship gives enough. If it goes full power, it's a different story.

I'mma gonna need an in-game reference, or canon book reference.  Even if it's a vague remembrance, tell me where you heard this categorically stated.

Of course...Remeber the barrier that held Liara in ME1 on therum or the moble kinetic barriers the geth used in ME1?  Could you walk through them?

[Skirata129]

pirate1802 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

did you see the other link to the codex about reaper vulnerabilities.  Just because one fighter with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught does not mean that 20 fighters with thanix =/= 1 dreadnaught.  There are many more fighters than there are dreadnaughts.
here is the link I was talking about
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/The_Reapers#Reaper_Vulnerabilities

Unfortunately there are also many oculi swarming around their ships whose job specifically is to keep fighters away. We keep forgetting this very conveniently. By the time they're done with the oculi their ranks would have thinned considerably.

Only if they care about surviving the attack... have drone's do the attacks, or shackled AI's or something of that nature. We could also create a kamikaze corps. in that kind of a war, there would be no shortage of volunteers.

[comrade gando]

how in the... I don't think the U.S. military has ever fought reapers... not that I'm aware of O.o

[Conniving_Eagle]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

[satunnainen]

ABCoLD wrote...

satunnainen wrote...
No, it means that the fighter with thanix has about the same firepower as cruiser without thanix. Cruiser with thanix has obviously more, and so on. 

Also it takes 4 dreadnoughts with thanix to destroy a reaper, not just any dreadnoughts.

Actually they just state that 4 Dreadnoughts can take out a Reaper, and after that state that Thanix weapons are even better than conventional weapons.  They don't necessarily state that you must have Thanix to take it out.

Too bad they didnt have 4 dreadnoughts in the citadel fleet at the end of me1 then, instead they needed the firepower of all ships and still couldnt take sovereign down until the shields were down

[Skirata129]

comrade gando wrote...

how in the... I don't think the U.S. military has ever fought reapers... not that I'm aware of O.o

Essentially, in this wargame, the US (blue force) equals the Reaper fleet.

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

[Undead Han]

Skirata129 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Even ignoring the fact that it would likely take years to overhaul the entire fleet even in peacetime,

Overhauls and construction are incredibly fastin wartime compared to peacetime, because resources and manpower are diverted from civillian jobs to produce as much materiel as possible as fast as possible.

History disagrees.

There has never been a time even during war, when complete overhauls of armies or navies was carried out in anything less than years.

Case in point: The panther tank.

It was designed by the Germans to combat the venerable Soviet T34s that they had encountered in 1941. It did not see widespread service until mid 1944.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Skirata129 wrote...
Only if they care about surviving the attack... have drone's do the attacks, or shackled AI's or something of that nature. We could also create a kamikaze corps. in that kind of a war, there would be no shortage of volunteers.

Thats not the point. The point is, for your retrofitted fighters to have an effect on reaper dreadnoughts, they have to get through oculi barrier first. By they time they do this, IF they do this, their numbers would be small enough to not have a significant damage on the main ships.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

So is getting close to a carrier man.
CWIS. Escort subs and destroyers. Fighters. Helicopters.
I think it's about equal.

OP, Conventional victory has always been possible. However, BioWare wanted to deliver "Pick a choice and be a giant ******" as an ending.

[OmegaXI]

Skirata129 wrote...


who said anything about guarding the relays? they're positioned there so as to be able to reinforce any beleaguered world quickly.
 

Turians Tried that

 Codex: Fall of Taetrus

The Reapers' first attack on turian space followed an age-old maxim: hit them where it hurts. A populous colony dating back centuries, Taetrus was already embedded in the turian psyche as the site of the worst terrorist attack in turian history. Wounds were still raw from the Vallum Blast, in which a separatist revolutionary slammed a starship into the colony's capital, killing more than a hundred thousand turians. Hierarchy forces responded with a massive invasion of the planet to stamp out the separatist movement. It was a catharsis for the turians, reassuring them that heroes would always triumph over evil. And so the Reapers struck Taetrus first.
By the time Taetrus went dark, the turians had already learned that the batarians and humans were under attack. The Hierarchy responded with what they believed was overwhelming force, only to walk into a trap. Reaper ships were waiting on the other side of the relay to Taetrus, and they released devastating firepower the moment the fleet emerged. Turian leaders observing the one-sided battle were faced with a choice: reinforce their side of the relay to defend against a Reaper invasion, or throw more resources into an offense. With soldiers and civilians alike clamoring for retribution against the Reapers, the turians continued the assault. The Hierarchy sent warp bombs through the relay to clear a path, fighting tooth and talon to inflict casualties against the Reaper fleet. It was a valiant effort, but doomed. The Reapers emerged victorious from the relay and began broadcasting a signal to turian comm buoys--images of Vallum, Taetrus's capital, once again a smoking wreck. The fight for turian space had begun.


The Asari tried something simular

Codex: Fall of Thessia


The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.
Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.
A swift and brutal slaughter of the asari ground forces followed. Resistance from trained biotics barely slowed the attackers down. In the end, Thessia's minimal military forces, combined with unpreparedness in the face of an overwhelming enemy, resulted in the fall of the planet.

Skirata129 wrote...


...you haven't studied much of military history or tactics, have you?

No disrespect intended but studying military history and tactics and actually using them in battle are two completely different things. There is a difference between a General and an Airchair General.

Also the Alliance, Turians, and others have tried such tactics throughout the game and they didn't work, they could not inflict enough casulities on the Reapers to stop them.

I understand that you believe that conventionial victory is possible but please explain to me how the Reapers can be defeated in such a way during the Reaper war when:

1.) Their Fleets  outnumber the forces of the Galaxy Greatly
2.) Are more technologically advanced
3.) Are inflicting massive casulities on the different races of the Galaxy
4.) Are killing and/or Tranforming the populations of the galaxy thus removing the number of workers and soldiers to contribute the the war effort of the races of the galaxy
5.) They are destroyign all the industrial centers in the galaxy so this hinders or eliminates the galaxy's ability to build more ships to make up for the losses the Reapers have inflicted.


With your tactics and conventiional approach you may win a few battles but they will not win you the war againist the Reapers.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .

[ABCoLD]

dreman9999 wrote...
Of course...Remeber the barrier that held Liara in ME1 on therum or the moble kinetic barriers the geth used in ME1?  Could you walk through them?

Mmmm, I'm not sure if the power of Plot Device counts.  

Plus those stopped a person from being able to enter an area.  I think we can agree that a person doesn't pack quite the kinetic potential of a ship flying at speed in combat?

[DirtyPhoenix]

..And thats assuming the reaper just sits there doing nothing while you break through its fighter barrier. This whole plan hinges on the enemy doing nothing. Space is not sea, you can move in any direction, and carrier ships don't have FTL. You can always bug out if things are going rough.

Modifié par pirate1802, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

I fail to see your point. I'm talking about the war on planetside, in addition, not every Reaper is outfitted with Occuli. Occuli are used to infiltrate ships, not as a means of anti-infantry.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:27 .

[Zaire Taylor]

Well, it's not as logical as a giant space object that can magically release energy to either merge all synthetic and organics, let a human control the Reapers, or somehow make the Reapers blow up everywhere.


Oh wait...

[dreman9999]

 This expline why thanix weapon can't idealy be use to beat the reapers..

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters. 
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 

Added the reaper have fighters like the oculus to counter close attack  as well. http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

[OmegaXI]

comrade gando wrote...

how in the... I don't think the U.S. military has ever fought reapers... not that I'm aware of O.o

I guess I'm not the only one who skipped that history class that day:lol:

[Skirata129]

pirate1802 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...
Only if they care about surviving the attack... have drone's do the attacks, or shackled AI's or something of that nature. We could also create a kamikaze corps. in that kind of a war, there would be no shortage of volunteers.

Thats not the point. The point is, for your retrofitted fighters to have an effect on reaper dreadnoughts, they have to get through oculi barrier first. By they time they do this, IF they do this, their numbers would be small enough to not have a significant damage on the main ships.

In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

Modifié par Skirata129, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:27 .

[Undead Han]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...


OP, Conventional victory has always been possible. However, BioWare wanted to deliver "Pick a choice and be a giant ******" as an ending.

As of the beginning of Mass Effect 3, it wasn't.

In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have had any chance in defeating the Reapers conventionally, they'd have to have greatly narrowed the technological gap before the Reapers invaded. Since that didn't happen in Mass Effect 2, by Mass Effect 3 conventional victory was no longer possible.

By the time the Reapers invade the galaxy is forced to fight with the fleet it has, rather than the fleet it wants. And the existing fleet is not enough to defeat the Reapers conventionally. They possess neither a qualitative edge or a significant enough quantitative edge to offset Reaper technological superiority. In fact the Reapers may even have numerical superiority, in addition to technological superiority. They certainly have more dreadnoughts.

As of  the start of Mass Effect 3, conventional victory is a pipe dream.

[Ticonderoga117]

pirate1802 wrote...

..And thats assuming the reaper just sits there doing nothing while you break through its fighter barrier. This whole plan hinges on the enemy doing nothing. Space is not sea, you can move in any direction, and carrier ships don't have FTL. You can always bug out if things are going rough.

Then you win. You made the Reapers bug out.

[krasnoarmeets]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And I'm telling you you can't touch them.

At all.

That's the point.

There is nothing you can do.

Only the combined force of four Dreadnoughts will really do anything and that's difficult to do.

Bioware has stated that it is impossible without using the Crucible.

Accept this and move on.

That's really quite the defeatist attitude you have there. I'm glad I'm not in the Mass Effect universe with you as Shepard. The reason why people like Shepard can achieve the impossible is because of their mindset that anything is possible. It makes a huge difference going into a battle thinking that you're going to lose. 

Also the fastest and most effective technical advances are made in times of war when there is urgency to overcome a threat and strained resources even. The advances made during World War II were phenomenal. A lot of the military technology you see in use today was developed during wartime. 

Modifié par krasnoarmeets, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:33 .

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I'd just like to say this: Capital Ships have to lower their mass to that of cruisers if they wish to land on most planets (in some cases even lower, depending on the planet's gravity, for example, the idea of Reaper ships on Dekunna is laughable). During the final mission on Rannoch we discover one of the Reapers' main weaknesses - their main gun is very vulnerable, it isn't protected by kinetic barriers. It took a small group few ships, NOT THE ENTIRE FLEET like some people like to think, to destroy that Reaper.

Unfortunately, because everyone in this cycle is so ****ing stupid, this is completely dismissed afterwards. There is no codex update of Reaper vulnerabilities, Shepard doesn't report to Hackett so that Alliance forces can start utilizing this tactic against the Reapers, etc. Look at how they handled the Reaper on earth, just randomly fire at it, yeah that's sure effective. It would take one Cain, ONE CAIN, to destroy a Destroyer while its main gun is charging, and it could probably mess up a dreadnought pretty bad (I have a belief that the back/underside is also a more vulnerable exterior).

That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

I fail to see your point. I'm talking about the war on planet side, in addition, not every Reaper is outfitted with Occuli.

War planet ship? You do understand the the reaper can just bomb us from orbit and even if the reaper is on the ground, oculus can fly is atmosphers, so the fighters still have to face them any way. Ground forces have to face the husk forces.

[Skirata129]

pirate1802 wrote...

..And thats assuming the reaper just sits there doing nothing while you break through its fighter barrier. This whole plan hinges on the enemy doing nothing. Space is not sea, you can move in any direction, and carrier ships don't have FTL. You can always bug out if things are going rough.

The ocean and Space comabt do have significant similarities. why do you think militaries in Space are always the Navy and Marines? Closed environments and combat takes place above, below and to the sides

[Ticonderoga117]

Han Shot First wrote...
As of the beginning of Mass Effect 3, it wasn't.

Because they wanted the horrible plot device to make the ending. There are so many ways to work a better convetional/plot device driven win. Both are possible. They just didn't do it. That is the ONLY reason. They made everyone morons to force this.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Reapers don't run.