1098 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

..And thats assuming the reaper just sits there doing nothing while you break through its fighter barrier. This whole plan hinges on the enemy doing nothing. Space is not sea, you can move in any direction, and carrier ships don't have FTL. You can always bug out if things are going rough.

Then you win. You made the Reapers bug out.

Which gains you.... what?

[ABCoLD]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

So is getting close to a carrier man.
CWIS. Escort subs and destroyers. Fighters. Helicopters.
I think it's about equal.

OP, Conventional victory has always been possible. However, BioWare wanted to deliver "Pick a choice and be a giant ******" as an ending.

It's always confused me why science fiction series absolutely refuse to consider the torpedo boat as an effective weapon.  Or really, any small craft equipped with only a couple massive/extremely destructive torpedoes/missiles that can be used in a fire and forget manner.

I suppose cause it means that their big cruisers would have to worry about all those small ships.

[Han Shot First]

krasnoarmeets wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

And I'm telling you you can't touch them.

At all.

That's the point.

There is nothing you can do.

Only the combined force of four Dreadnoughts will really do anything and that's difficult to do.

Bioware has stated that it is impossible without using the Crucible.

Accept this and move on.

That's really quite the defeatist attitude you there. I'm glad I'm not in the Mass Effect universe with you as Shepard. The reason why people like Shepard can achieve the impossible is because of their mindset that anything is possible. It makes a huge difference going into a battle thinking that you're going to lose. 

Unless Shepard can bring down Reaper shields with fireballs from his eyes and puncture their hulls with lightning bolts from his arse, I don't see him contributing in any way towards a conventional victory.

[AlanC9]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Reapers don't run.

You're saying they're programmed not to, or they're too stupid to, or what?

[dreman9999]

Skirata129 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...
Only if they care about surviving the attack... have drone's do the attacks, or shackled AI's or something of that nature. We could also create a kamikaze corps. in that kind of a war, there would be no shortage of volunteers.

Thats not the point. The point is, for your retrofitted fighters to have an effect on reaper dreadnoughts, they have to get through oculi barrier first. By they time they do this, IF they do this, their numbers would be small enough to not have a significant damage on the main ships.

In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

But there more oculi then our fights. The fights have to go through the oculi first . Added the reapers have their own close range defences...
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 
the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters. 

[Skirata129]

ABCoLD wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That would still be countered by this.   http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 
Getting close to a reaper is way, way harder than you think.

So is getting close to a carrier man.
CWIS. Escort subs and destroyers. Fighters. Helicopters.
I think it's about equal.

OP, Conventional victory has always been possible. However, BioWare wanted to deliver "Pick a choice and be a giant ******" as an ending.

It's always confused me why science fiction series absolutely refuse to consider the torpedo boat as an effective weapon.  Or really, any small craft equipped with only a couple massive/extremely destructive torpedoes/missiles that can be used in a fire and forget manner.

I suppose cause it means that their big cruisers would have to worry about all those small ships.

yeah, it's a blind spot shared by many in the defense industrial complex. if you readthe wiki article they actually revised therules of the game to force defeat on the Opfor because defeat would have disproved their assumptions. They actually had to reset the game because the US military LOST at first.

[ABCoLD]

Skirata129 wrote...
In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

Congratulations, you just created Kamikaze pilots.  You're killing your own argument here, man.  I'm trying to help you!

[DirtyPhoenix]

Skirata129 wrote...

In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

Yep. Ignore them and focus on the dreadnought and be shredded by the oculi on whom you were not focussing on, but who were totally focussing on you.
Also, not sure how reapers will "almost certainly" lose ships if a large part of your fighters is taken down by the oculi. No matter how many fighters you manufacture, you'll always lose them if you don't focus of the oculi; it gives them free reign to hunt you down they are as fast as your fighters last tie I checked.

Modifié par pirate1802, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:35 .

[Ticonderoga117]

AlanC9 wrote...

Which gains you.... what?

They aren't killing people any more?
They are destroying any more forces?
I don't know, pick one.
More time is always handy.

[AlanC9]

ABCoLD wrote...
It's always confused me why science fiction series absolutely refuse to consider the torpedo boat as an effective weapon.  Or really, any small craft equipped with only a couple massive/extremely destructive torpedoes/missiles that can be used in a fire and forget manner.

I suppose cause it means that their big cruisers would have to worry about all those small ships.

Pretty much. People won't relate to a sci-fi series where big ships are militarily worthless. Carriers can work because you've got the carrier itself.

[Han Shot First]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
As of the beginning of Mass Effect 3, it wasn't.

Because they wanted the horrible plot device to make the ending. There are so many ways to work a better convetional/plot device driven win. Both are possible. They just didn't do it. That is the ONLY reason. They made everyone morons to force this.

There is nothing wrong with a superweapon as a plot device. ME3 could have had an epically awesome ending that involved a superweapon, depending on how it was written. The Crucible was not an example of that unfortunately, but that doesn't mean that Bioware should have written in a conventional victory.

[daecath]

Seriously, this is in the bag.

From the codex:
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

And the quote about taking 4 dreadnaughts to overcome one reaper, is inaccurate.

n the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off
the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly
causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons
designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better
results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.


So the number 4 only applies to conventional kinetic weapons, not heat
weapons like the Thanix cannons. So yes, you could install a Thanix cannon into a fighter, which at that point you could take down a capital ship with just a couple fighters. Thus, this tactic could work.

Also, directly from the codex:
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Game set match. Bioware states directly that, with the right intel, weapons, and strategy, you can defeat the Reapers.

Modifié par daecath, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:41 .

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Of course...Remeber the barrier that held Liara in ME1 on therum or the moble kinetic barriers the geth used in ME1?  Could you walk through them?

Mmmm, I'm not sure if the power of Plot Device counts.  

Plus those stopped a person from being able to enter an area.  I think we can agree that a person doesn't pack quite the kinetic potential of a ship flying at speed in combat?

But that's my point. It's mometum of the object compare to the density of the barrier that decide if the ship goes through it.

This mean it
Ship momentum>Barrier density= ship goes through.
Ship momentum<Barrier dencity= ship does not go through.
That is what I said earlier.

[Ticonderoga117]

pirate1802 wrote...
Yep. Ignore them and focus on the dreadnought and be shredded by the oculi on whom you were not focussing on, but who were totally focussing on you.
Also, not sure how reapers will "almost certainly" lose ships if a large part of your fighters is taken down by the oculi. No matter how many fighters you manufacture, you'll always lose them if you don't focus of the oculi; it gives them free reign to hunt you down they are as fast as your fighters last tie I checked.

Combined forces. Frigates that are equipped mainly with gardian lasers can support the fighters, both against the occuli and the Reapers themselves.

[ABCoLD]

To go back to my original response, thanix weapons aren't the way to win this. Not cannons at least. You need to deliver massive destructive missiles/bombs through a Kinetic barrier to stop a dreadnought.

[AlanC9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Which gains you.... what?

They aren't killing people any more?
They are destroying any more forces?
I don't know, pick one.
More time is always handy.

What I meant was that you've defended one system. Out of how many?

The Reapers can concentrate force at your key defense points. You can't do that to them because they haven't got any.

[ABCoLD]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Yep. Ignore them and focus on the dreadnought and be shredded by the oculi on whom you were not focussing on, but who were totally focussing on you.
Also, not sure how reapers will "almost certainly" lose ships if a large part of your fighters is taken down by the oculi. No matter how many fighters you manufacture, you'll always lose them if you don't focus of the oculi; it gives them free reign to hunt you down they are as fast as your fighters last tie I checked.

Combined forces. Frigates that are equipped mainly with gardian lasers can support the fighters, both against the occuli and the Reapers themselves.

You've got it backwards.  Fighters need to screen Frigates, because that's what fighters are for.  Frigates can then deliver the destructive payload at knife fighting range.

[Skirata129]

ABCoLD wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...
In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

Congratulations, you just created Kamikaze pilots.  You're killing your own argument here, man.  I'm trying to help you!

haha, I mean drones. have skilled pilots sitting back somewhere and operating through simulators. All they have to dodge a few oculi, shoot, then whoever is left will bug out. a loss of a drone would be relatively minor.

Modifié par Skirata129, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

comrade gando wrote...

how in the... I don't think the U.S. military has ever fought reapers... not that I'm aware of O.o

The 90's were a wild time...

The enemy remains are being looked over by top men.

[Alez Zinai]

If fleet conventional victory is impossible than asymmetric warfare oblige council races to seek where difference in power with Reapers are not so significant - ground warfare. All MP about it! Then main problem is how small task force can kill Reaper Dreadnought? By boarding operation (Yeah there is a weak spot inside - Shep was there at ME2). So main problem become as is - how can shuttle get aboard Reaper?
Main problem is that Bioware authors never thought of conventional victory at all. Then why there is the new ending at EC (Refuse)?

[dreman9999]

daecath wrote...

Seriously, this is in the bag.

From the codex:
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

So yes, you could install a Thanix cannon into a fighter. Thus, this tactic could work.

Also, directly from the codex:
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Game set match. Bioware states directly that, with the right intel, weapons, and strategy, you can defeat the Reapers.

counter point...
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters. 

So we have to get close to the ships, that can one shot ours, to use them....And you think we can win?

[Ticonderoga117]

Han Shot First wrote...
There is nothing wrong with a superweapon as a plot device. ME3 could have had an epically awesome ending that involved a superweapon, depending on how it was written. The Crucible was not an example of that unfortunately, but that doesn't mean that Bioware should have written in a conventional victory.

Never said there was, but the Cruicible is the prime example on how NOT to do it.
No one explores any other alternatives. The game never shows "We really can't beat them", we only get blabbed at by Hackett. It's too convient at Mars. Mars should've leant a clue to help find it. The backstory is bunk, should've been JUST a Prothean device. The Citadel's functions are bunk.

It could have been done better. I can't stress this enough though that this isn't it by a wide margin.

[krasnoarmeets]

pirate1802 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

In space, how do the Oculi present a barrier? the only barrier they present is mental, because normally pilots would be forced to focus on them before engaging the dreadnaught if they hoped to survive the encounter. ignore them and focus on the Dreadnaught and you will lose a large portion of your attacking force, but the Reapers will almost certainly lose their ship. With sufficiently advanced manufacturing proccesses, this kill:death ratio would be easily high enough to justify the tactic.

Yep. Ignore them and focus on the dreadnought and be shredded by the oculi on whom you were not focussing on, but who were totally focussing on you.
Also, not sure how reapers will "almost certainly" lose ships if a large part of your fighters is taken down by the oculi. No matter how many fighters you manufacture, you'll always lose them if you don't focus of the oculi; it gives them free reign to hunt you down they are as fast as your fighters last tie I checked.

Hate to rain on your parade, but the way technology is currently going fighter craft such as the ones in ME3 would be far more likely to be remotely controlled from the larger ships rather than actually manned. I was very surprised that Bioware decided to make the fighters manned to be honest. Drones are used for a lot of things these days as good pilots are the hardest thing to replace.

[ABCoLD]

Skirata129 wrote...

haha, I mean drones. have skilled pilots sitting back somewhere and operating through simulators. All they have to dodge a few oculi, shoot, then whoever is left will bug out. a loss of a drone would be relatively minor.

That's a really horrible idea.  Think of EDI's job, then think of a ship without an EDI to do that job, make it cheap and simple for mass production, and then make it designed to be flown by remote control.  Then send it against  a Reaper.

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

To go back to my original response, thanix weapons aren't the way to win this. Not cannons at least. You need to deliver massive destructive missiles/bombs through a Kinetic barrier to stop a dreadnought.

Problemis get it close is near impossible with the anti missile/ fight systems and lazer the reapers have and the oculuses.