1098 réponses à ce sujet

[MysticSpace]

Skirata129 wrote...

probably a significant number. but the overall loss of manpower and material would be drastically less than closing with a dreadnaught. And the Reapers are determined to stand and fight, as the clearly do when attacking earth. When they realized that they were losing capital ships and destroyers fast and beat a retreat, it would turn into a cat and mouse game. Consider that this would be a complete reversal of how a Reaper invasion normally goes.

They can retreat to another galaxy and come back with reinforcements because they're much faster than us and they don't need to stop to refuel.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Did you play the game? It clear by playing it they can make endless force. Add the reapers themselve are the factories making the forces and the oculus....
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants 
PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, pocessors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers.
They don't need to build anything because they are the things they need to make things.

Still need resources, whether it be organics or raw materials. Sure it's mobile, but you can still kill it.

[dreman9999]

daecath wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

yeah, quantum entanglement seems quite logical. would make it virtually impossible to hack them too.

The reapers can cut into qec.

Where did you find that? Because the way quantum entanglement works, two particles physically interact, and then become separated. So in order to "hack" into qec, you have to physically have access to one of the two particles. Which could cause that particle to become dis-entangled from it's current mate to become entangled with the new one, so in those cases, all you've done is disabled communication, not hacked into it.

http://en.wikipedia....um_entanglement

That how they found satuary. And in the "war of worlds" twitter event with  Emilly Wong, they tracked her with her QEC Device.
Yes, the reapers are that op.

[ABCoLD]

Skirata129 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Not speed, just the amount of data it can handle at any given moment. and the size is actually a nonissue, as it could literally just replace the cockpit of the fighters, as a pilot wouldn't be occupying it.

You're ignoring expense.  Didn't they say the QEC cost as much as a frigate?

Expense is a factor that can be ignored in this instance as in a war for survival, people will work essentially for free, so long as they're provided with neccesities.

Hee hee hee... also, you have to provide them with facilities capable of mass producing a device that basically has to be custom built.  And hope that it's not on Earth, and that the Reapers don't hear about it.  And that building a QEC takes less than a day!  (Hey, that'd be nifty, we could have 30 QEC equipped drones every month!)  

You have to cut back the leaps and the guessing.  If you want conventional victory against the Reapers, you're talking staggering loss of life, and staggeringly huge explosives.  And possibly detonating a few relays.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
They did it. They did that to cerberus with sactuary. Remeber, they master QEC well before we even started to understand it.

No they didn't. They caught on that Cerberus was using THIER signals. QEC is unhackable and untracable by it's very nature.

See Quantum Entanglement for more.

[iamweaver]

Skirata129 wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

Not speed, just the amount of data it can handle at any given moment. and the size is actually a nonissue, as it could literally just replace the cockpit of the fighters, as a pilot wouldn't be occupying it.

You're ignoring expense.  Didn't they say the QEC cost as much as a frigate?

Expense is a factor that can be ignored in this instance as in a war for survival, people will work essentially for free, so long as they're provided with neccesities.

Expense is merely a handy way of accounting for time, effort and resources required to do something.  You can't ignore it.  It still takes time, effort and resources to build a QEC.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Did you play the game? It clear by playing it they can make endless force. Add the reapers themselve are the factories making the forces and the oculus....
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants 
PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, pocessors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers.
They don't need to build anything because they are the things they need to make things.

Still need resources, whether it be organics or raw materials. Sure it's mobile, but you can still kill it.

They don't need that much matrial and they can make husk via clones...Added, reaper have vastnumbers of ships, you don't think they have vast numbers of Processors? Do you think they would put it directly in battle or  not protect them. If it's hard  to get close enough to attack a reaper ship, what wouldbe the chance of attacking one guared processor out of an unknown  massive number.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They did it. They did that to cerberus with sactuary. Remeber, they master QEC well before we even started to understand it.

No they didn't. They caught on that Cerberus was using THIER signals. QEC is unhackable and untracable by it's very nature.

See Quantum Entanglement for more.

Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

[ABCoLD]

dreman9999 wrote...
Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

We find out that Emily THINKS they can.  The problem with reports from the middle of a war is that they're always incomplete, filled with guesswork and wild speculation.  Sorta like these forums.

[daecath]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Or may be just send the geth.  But a knew problem comes up. Production and recourse. The reaper can produce oculus  faster than we can ships or drones. And they an do it more at once. Added, we have a limit on resources whild they don't and the reaper are cutting our recourse down. This plan would just turn the war in a battle of endurace...The reaper have no end to that. We would lose.

How do they have unlimited resources? They have no infrastructure, and they don't seem keen on keeping any. They probably can't replace Occuli at all, or if they can, very slowly.

Did you play the game? It clear by playing it they can make endless force. Add the reapers themselve are the factories making the forces and the oculus....
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants 
PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, processors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers. 

They don't need to build anything because they are the things they need to make things.

You're talking husks and ground troops. Those aren't the problem. The problem are the large reaper ships. And those aren't easily replaced. It took the population of multiple colonies to build even the half finished reaper in 2. EDI estimated that the numbers required to finish it would have been in the billions. You don't just grab billions of people who are actively fighting you, liquify them, and turn them into a reaper in a couple days. Especially when the requirements are pretty strict - ie. they have to be alive, of good genetic stock, and it's possible they can't be indoctrinated. Since the mind is preserved as part of the reaper, and indoctrination damages the mind, it seems logical to assume that an indoctrinated individual would be as unsuitable mentally as someone with a genetic defect would be as unsuitable physically. I can't back that up, but I remember reading that somewhere (although it could have been someone speculating). In any case, by the numbers BioWare gave, it would take a decade to harvest the population of Earth. So for every capital ship taken out, it would take them about a year to replace it, and that's assuming that every harvested individual was suitable for creating a reaper. Many of those would end up processed into destroyers or husks.

[dreman9999]

daecath wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

daecath wrote...

Seriously, this is in the bag.

From the codex:
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

So yes, you could install a Thanix cannon into a fighter. Thus, this tactic could work.

Also, directly from the codex:
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Game set match. Bioware states directly that, with the right intel, weapons, and strategy, you can defeat the Reapers.

counter point...
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters. 

So we have to get close to the ships, that can one shot ours, to use them....And you think we can win?

"Difficulty =/= Impossibility"

You're talking about a large dreadnaught vs. small fighters. Fighters are more maneuverable than a dreadnaught.

"Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to
do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat
situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought [or a group of fighters] to emerge
from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear
faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however,
against Reapers flying in proper formation.
[for a dreadnaught, but not necessarily for a fighter]"

We see fighters getting very close to reaper ships in the cutscenes. And again, directly from BioWare "theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

Reapers rely on their overwhelming size and strength. That also leaves them slow and less maneuverable. Take advantage of that fact. We've seen it over and over throughout history. An enemy with superior technology and force defeated by better tactics.

But the reapers don't need to turn their lazer defence to kill the fighters attacking it and the oculus are fast free moving fighters the compliment the slow turning speed of the reapers. It's the same case of the reapers cutting the fighters down any way.

[Skirata129]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They did it. They did that to cerberus with sactuary. Remeber, they master QEC well before we even started to understand it.

No they didn't. They caught on that Cerberus was using THIER signals. QEC is unhackable and untracable by it's very nature.

See Quantum Entanglement for more.

Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

that could be an instance of unreliable narrator. it's just what she thought happened, not neccesarily what did.

[daecath]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
They did it. They did that to cerberus with sactuary. Remeber, they master QEC well before we even started to understand it.

No they didn't. They caught on that Cerberus was using THIER signals. QEC is unhackable and untracable by it's very nature.

See Quantum Entanglement for more.

Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

Actually, they didn't hack her communications, they just traced the signal. Big difference.

[krasnoarmeets]

MysticSpace wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

probably a significant number. but the overall loss of manpower and material would be drastically less than closing with a dreadnaught. And the Reapers are determined to stand and fight, as the clearly do when attacking earth. When they realized that they were losing capital ships and destroyers fast and beat a retreat, it would turn into a cat and mouse game. Consider that this would be a complete reversal of how a Reaper invasion normally goes.

They can retreat to another galaxy and come back with reinforcements because they're much faster than us and they don't need to stop to refuel.

Bahahaha!!!! The closest galaxy is 25000 LY from the Milky way... it takes an entire species from a single cycle to make one Sovereign class capital ship (the prominent one in a cycle, others are made into destroyers) . According to information on the Protheans it took several centuries to defeat their cycle (and the Protheans lost their leadership, control of relays at the very start of the war) and the reapers attempt to create a reaper from them failed. In the amount of time it would take for them to do that technology would advance spectacularly and reaper technology appears to be static. Bad logic is bad. 

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

What? Oh, you mean that thing that wasn't in the actual game and was probably written by someone who "didn't tdo the research"? Yeah, no. You cannot intercept QEC communications. Change one particle on Earth, and it's partner particle on Thessia changes the same way at the exact same time. It's impossible, even for Reapers. Just chalk it up to bad writing and move on.

[dreman9999]

daecath wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Or may be just send the geth.  But a knew problem comes up. Production and recourse. The reaper can produce oculus  faster than we can ships or drones. And they an do it more at once. Added, we have a limit on resources whild they don't and the reaper are cutting our recourse down. This plan would just turn the war in a battle of endurace...The reaper have no end to that. We would lose.

How do they have unlimited resources? They have no infrastructure, and they don't seem keen on keeping any. They probably can't replace Occuli at all, or if they can, very slowly.

Did you play the game? It clear by playing it they can make endless force. Add the reapers themselve are the factories making the forces and the oculus....
http://masseffect.wi...Reaper_Variants 
PROCESSORS, also called "slaughter ships," are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting. Like troop transports, processors appear to be remotely operated by sapient Reapers. 

They don't need to build anything because they are the things they need to make things.

You're talking husks and ground troops. Those aren't the problem. The problem are the large reaper ships. And those aren't easily replaced. It took the population of multiple colonies to build even the half finished reaper in 2. EDI estimated that the numbers required to finish it would have been in the billions. You don't just grab billions of people who are actively fighting you, liquify them, and turn them into a reaper in a couple days. Especially when the requirements are pretty strict - ie. they have to be alive, of good genetic stock, and it's possible they can't be indoctrinated. Since the mind is preserved as part of the reaper, and indoctrination damages the mind, it seems logical to assume that an indoctrinated individual would be as unsuitable mentally as someone with a genetic defect would be as unsuitable physically. I can't back that up, but I remember reading that somewhere (although it could have been someone speculating). In any case, by the numbers BioWare gave, it would take a decade to harvest the population of Earth. So for every capital ship taken out, it would take them about a year to replace it, and that's assuming that every harvested individual was suitable for creating a reaper. Many of those would end up processed into destroyers or husks.

Why do people ignore this?....  http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

Do you not realize that reaper use oculus in mass as well. They can barrow into our ship and destroy them from the inside out. ThE OCULUS IS MADE IN MASS THERE TOO AND IS A PROMLEM TO GET THROUGH.

[Ticonderoga117]

daecath wrote...
Actually, they didn't hack her communications, they just traced the signal. Big difference.

What signal?!
QEC comms HAVE NO SIGNAL!
Science people, read some!

[daecath]

dreman9999 wrote...

daecath wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

daecath wrote...

Seriously, this is in the bag.

From the codex:
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

So yes, you could install a Thanix cannon into a fighter. Thus, this tactic could work.

Also, directly from the codex:
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

Game set match. Bioware states directly that, with the right intel, weapons, and strategy, you can defeat the Reapers.

counter point...
http://masseffect.wi...er_Capabilities 

The kinetic barriers on a Reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the Javelin, GARDIAN lasers, or the Thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters. 

So we have to get close to the ships, that can one shot ours, to use them....And you think we can win?

"Difficulty =/= Impossibility"

You're talking about a large dreadnaught vs. small fighters. Fighters are more maneuverable than a dreadnaught.

"Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to
do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat
situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought [or a group of fighters] to emerge
from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear
faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however,
against Reapers flying in proper formation.
[for a dreadnaught, but not necessarily for a fighter]"

We see fighters getting very close to reaper ships in the cutscenes. And again, directly from BioWare "theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."

Reapers rely on their overwhelming size and strength. That also leaves them slow and less maneuverable. Take advantage of that fact. We've seen it over and over throughout history. An enemy with superior technology and force defeated by better tactics.

But the reapers don't need to turn their lazer defence to kill the fighters attacking it and the oculus are fast free moving fighters the compliment the slow turning speed of the reapers. It's the same case of the reapers cutting the fighters down any way.

Lasers are unidirectional, so yeah, they do need to aim the lasers to kill the fighters. And the oculus aren't invulnerable. We killed one in ME2 with heavy hand weapons. It's a fair fight at that point.

[ABCoLD]

daecath wrote...
You're talking husks and ground troops. Those aren't the problem. The problem are the large reaper ships. And those aren't easily replaced. It took the population of multiple colonies to build even the half finished reaper in 2. EDI estimated that the numbers required to finish it would have been in the billions. You don't just grab billions of people who are actively fighting you, liquify them, and turn them into a reaper in a couple days. Especially when the requirements are pretty strict - ie. they have to be alive, of good genetic stock, and it's possible they can't be indoctrinated. Since the mind is preserved as part of the reaper, and indoctrination damages the mind, it seems logical to assume that an indoctrinated individual would be as unsuitable mentally as someone with a genetic defect would be as unsuitable physically. I can't back that up, but I remember reading that somewhere (although it could have been someone speculating). In any case, by the numbers BioWare gave, it would take a decade to harvest the population of Earth. So for every capital ship taken out, it would take them about a year to replace it, and that's assuming that every harvested individual was suitable for creating a reaper. Many of those would end up processed into destroyers or husks.

To totally derail the thread, I always thought that subjects in the end would HAVE to be indoctrinated.  Why wouldn't the Reaper form immediately turn and try to kill the other Reapers or suicide in a sun if it wasn't indoctrinated?  Also, speaking of genetic defects making you genetically unsuitable... you have to remember that they also liquify your clothing, shoes, omni-tool and anything in your stomach... I thought that the human milk-shaking was the most retarded plot twist I'd ever seen.  Then I saw the colorsplosion/starchild.

[ABCoLD]

dreman9999 wrote...
Why do people ignore this?....  http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

Do you not realize that reaper use oculus in mass as well. They can barrow into our ship and destroy them from the inside out. ThE OCULUS IS MADE IN MASS THERE TOO AND IS A PROMLEM TO GET THROUGH.

Dude, I brought them up first.  I'm not ignoring them.  I said they'd be a problem.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Read the last report of EmailyWong and you'll find that they can.

What? Oh, you mean that thing that wasn't in the actual game and was probably written by someone who "didn't tdo the research"? Yeah, no. You cannot intercept QEC communications. Change one particle on Earth, and it's partner particle on Thessia changes the same way at the exact same time. It's impossible, even for Reapers. Just chalk it up to bad writing and move on.

We can't really say what the reaper can or can't do with tech. They are more advace then we are and have a full understanding ofit while we, in the game , are still trying to understand it.

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Why do people ignore this?....  http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

Do you not realize that reaper use oculus in mass as well. They can barrow into our ship and destroy them from the inside out. ThE OCULUS IS MADE IN MASS THERE TOO AND IS A PROMLEM TO GET THROUGH.

Dude, I brought them up first.  I'm not ignoring them.  I said they'd be a problem.

Not you...I mean 
daecath.

[ABCoLD]

MysticSpace wrote...
They can retreat to another galaxy and come back with reinforcements because they're much faster than us and they don't need to stop to refuel.

Just to point out, this is the most amusing but common misunderstanding of Reaper tech I see on the forums.

[dreman9999]

ABCoLD wrote...

daecath wrote...
You're talking husks and ground troops. Those aren't the problem. The problem are the large reaper ships. And those aren't easily replaced. It took the population of multiple colonies to build even the half finished reaper in 2. EDI estimated that the numbers required to finish it would have been in the billions. You don't just grab billions of people who are actively fighting you, liquify them, and turn them into a reaper in a couple days. Especially when the requirements are pretty strict - ie. they have to be alive, of good genetic stock, and it's possible they can't be indoctrinated. Since the mind is preserved as part of the reaper, and indoctrination damages the mind, it seems logical to assume that an indoctrinated individual would be as unsuitable mentally as someone with a genetic defect would be as unsuitable physically. I can't back that up, but I remember reading that somewhere (although it could have been someone speculating). In any case, by the numbers BioWare gave, it would take a decade to harvest the population of Earth. So for every capital ship taken out, it would take them about a year to replace it, and that's assuming that every harvested individual was suitable for creating a reaper. Many of those would end up processed into destroyers or husks.

To totally derail the thread, I always thought that subjects in the end would HAVE to be indoctrinated.  Why wouldn't the Reaper form immediately turn and try to kill the other Reapers or suicide in a sun if it wasn't indoctrinated?  Also, speaking of genetic defects making you genetically unsuitable... you have to remember that they also liquify your clothing, shoes, omni-tool and anything in your stomach... I thought that the human milk-shaking was the most retarded plot twist I'd ever seen.  Then I saw the colorsplosion/starchild.

The preserving concept is not bad. The proto -reaper design is.

[daecath]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

daecath wrote...
Actually, they didn't hack her communications, they just traced the signal. Big difference.

What signal?!
QEC comms HAVE NO SIGNAL!
Science people, read some!

Don't blame me, I didn't write this. Just repeating what they claimed. But you're right, it shouldn't have been hackable or traceable.

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