495 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Destroy was a total victory for me.

Destroy had my Shepard commiting genocide and murder.  And got buried in rubble for his troubles

And it's still the best ending of the lot.


And Bioware's confused why this wasn't well received?

and people at Bioware can't even decide if Shepard lives or dies

[Oni Changas]

What about the ending felt unvictorious to you? Were you looking for a Star Wars medal ceremony a la Shep's survival and reunion? Because you can feel victorious without that. I mean, unless you chose Refusal, you get to see the Reapers either destroyed, under your control, or helping to rebuild the galaxy. I'd feel pretty victorious with any of those, given the goal of the series was stopping them.

Some of us like our not-so-cliched ending of the hero living(reunion ought to go without saying), especially when the previous entries contained JUST that.

[Ticonderoga117]

AresKeith wrote...
and people at Bioware can't even decide if Shepard lives or dies

He is now Schrodinger's cat for all intents and purposes.

[Sajuro]

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Destroy was a total victory for me.

Destroy had my Shepard commiting genocide and murder.  And got buried in rubble for his troubles

And it's still the best ending of the lot.


And Bioware's confused why this wasn't well received?

Killed the Reapers, as TIM would say, EDI and the Geth knew the risks.

[v TricKy v]

 

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ironically you are asking for an unrealistic expectation because everyone has their own tastes and a satisfying conclusion is in the eye of the beholder based on how its a video game series designed for millions of people.

Hmm that would mean that pretty much all games would have an unsatisfying ending

Oh wait....

Mcfly616 wrote...

try? No....I stated a fact. Any form of transportation in space is called "space travel".....yes, its "real".....and its already been implied within the games that organics can create FTL drives with their own tech..... as well as possibly being able to replicate Mass Effect technology and rebuild the relays if necessary (per Matriarch Aethyta)

Tell me where it got implied that they can build FTL drives without relying on the Mass Effect.
Also you said that the that the galaxy must be purged from Reaper tech so why are you talking about rebuilding the Mass Relays? That would mean that you still rely on Reaper tech.

Modifié par v TricKy v, 01 août 2012 - 06:54 .

[AresKeith]

Sajuro wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Destroy was a total victory for me.

Destroy had my Shepard commiting genocide and murder.  And got buried in rubble for his troubles

And it's still the best ending of the lot.


And Bioware's confused why this wasn't well received?

Killed the Reapers, as TIM would say, EDI and the Geth knew the risks.

they didn't know you was gonna wipe everyone of them out, no one would want their entire race destroyed, your sacrificing too much.

[Sajuro]

AresKeith wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Destroy was a total victory for me.

Destroy had my Shepard commiting genocide and murder.  And got buried in rubble for his troubles

And it's still the best ending of the lot.


And Bioware's confused why this wasn't well received?

Killed the Reapers, as TIM would say, EDI and the Geth knew the risks.

they didn't know you was gonna wipe everyone of them out, no one would want their entire race destroyed, your sacrificing too much.

So long as not another Cycle is culled by the Reapers, so long as they are on the ground/dead and (preferably) on fire, so long as organics can forge their own future free from fear of the Reapers, no price is too great, no sacrifice too much.

[Shadow Quickpaw]

"Sigh.' I still think that (mostly due to the Catalyst's mistaken belief in Shepard's death in the high EMS Destroy) Edi and the Geth survive if your EMS allows Shepard one last hurrah. This is pure head-cannon of course, but if I'm careful I can "not" see Edi's name on the Memorial wall and assume her appearance in the flashback means something else entirely.

And you know what? It makes everything else fade (aside from the usual God-Brat ridiculousness) and allows me to enjoy the series as a whole. That's how I deal with it, and if might not work for someone else, but that is one solution I find works.

Take that as you will.

[Ticonderoga117]

Shadow Quickpaw wrote...

"Sigh.' I still think that (mostly due to the Catalyst's mistaken belief in Shepard's death in the high EMS Destroy) Edi and the Geth survive if your EMS allows Shepard one last hurrah. This is pure head-cannon of course, but if I'm careful I can "not" see Edi's name on the Memorial wall and assume her appearance in the flashback means something else entirely.

And you know what? It makes everything else fade (aside from the usual God-Brat ridiculousness) and allows me to enjoy the series as a whole. That's how I deal with it, and if might not work for someone else, but that is one solution I find works.

Take that as you will.

I like to pretend the whole Cruicible foolery never happens.

[Ghost]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conventional Victory = Impossible was only established in ME3. Before then it wasn't.

"Before then" did you even listen to Vigil in ME1?

[incinerator950]

Sajuro wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Destroy was a total victory for me.

Destroy had my Shepard commiting genocide and murder.  And got buried in rubble for his troubles

And it's still the best ending of the lot.


And Bioware's confused why this wasn't well received?

Killed the Reapers, as TIM would say, EDI and the Geth knew the risks.

Nah, they would be happier if EDI and the Geth were pulling Shepard out of the rubble, with their LI racing to embrace them. 

[incinerator950]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conventional Victory = Impossible was only established in ME3. Before then it wasn't.

"Before then" did you even listen to Vigil in ME1?

Yes, Vigil made nothing of it.  He specifically stated you didn't need to understand why the Reapers were Harvesting, or how the Ilos center went offline.  You were there to stop Sovereign, and to accept the instant win button Vigil had.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Sajuro wrote...

So long as not another Cycle is culled by the Reapers, so long as they are on the ground/dead and (preferably) on fire, so long as organics can forge their own future free from fear of the Reapers, no price is too great, no sacrifice too much.

Well said.

[MetioricTest]

Ironically you are asking for an unrealistic expectation because everyone has their own tastes and a satisfying conclusion is in the eye of the beholder based on how its a video game series designed for millions of people.

The rest of the game was received pretty well universally.

And thousands of other stories overcame this problem.

the current ending just sucks

[Jassu1979]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
In other words no matter how you slice it, the Crucible was the only weapon, because conventional victory would NOT have worked, or in others there is no way to win the war with the Reapers conventional means.  

*sigh*
I'm afraid you don't quite see the problem at hand.

Okay, let's start slow:

1.) Do you understand that the authors have full control over their fictional universes? The only boundaries are the rules and concepts they've established themselves - and even those are still malleable to a certain degree. Suspension of disbelief works for as long as there's a detectable sense of internal consistency, or as long as the established lore is not strained beyond all credulity. (Which, arguably, they pretty much did with the plot we got. Straining the rules beyond all credulity, that is.)
We could argue that the creators wrote themselves into a corner here, yes, but that's not really the point. The point is that there's a bazillion ways out of that corner, many of them *far* better fleshed out than what we actually got in the game. Which leads me to...

2.) What you are arguing here is a false dichotomy: it's not "either conventional victory or the Crucible/Catalyst-combo". We might argue that a conventional victory with lots of sheer dumb luck and by a hair's breadth would STILL demand less suspension of disbelief than: "Hey, I found this convenient superweapon. It was lying behind the sofa the whole time."
But for the sake of this argument, let's just assume that yes, the Mass Effect galaxy *does* need a special, super-powered gimmick to stand a chance against the Reapers, even with the relay network intact, the galactic hubs unconquered and - last but not least - the element of surprise lost on the part of the Old Machines.
Still, this in no way necessitates all the contrivances, lore-violations and bad story-telling that we actually got in ME3. We don't need holokid, or green space magic turning everyone into a hybrid, or that infamous line: "I control them. They are my solution."

I'll say it again: yes, the superweapon plot *could* work. It could work SO well that it'd result in the most epic story imaginable. But for that, you need to actually make that part of the story, not: "Yeah, I already found it. Now some people will build it in the background, and you can read a few texts on improvements if you finish certain fetch quests."
Nobody forced Bioware to jump ahead roughly six months, starting with the Reaper attack on Earth and retroactively declaring that Shepard was grounded the whole time, and nobody did anything to prepare for the arrival of the Old Machines. 
Nobody forced Bioware to have Liara conveniently produce the finished blueprints for the "Reaper-Off-Switch".
Nobody forced Bioware to have the superweapon be what it was.
Nobody forced Bioware to connect that superweapon to the concept of the "Catalyst."
Nobody forced Bioware to turn Cerberus into a cardboard villain.
Nobody forced Bioware to ignore clues and build-up from previous games and DLC.

See, I can think of at least a dozen plot lines that make WAY more sense within the context of the Mass Effect universe than what we actually got in ME3. It's not difficult, because honestly, that whole "I harvest advanced species so that some hyper-AI does not destroy all organic life"-twist really IS that bad. As is the design of the decision chamber. "We don't know what it does, but it's surprisingly simple to build" - yeah, right.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 01 août 2012 - 08:27 .

[incinerator950]

pirate1802 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

So long as not another Cycle is culled by the Reapers, so long as they are on the ground/dead and (preferably) on fire, so long as organics can forge their own future free from fear of the Reapers, no price is too great, no sacrifice too much.

Well said.

This just in, the Reapers have tasted Beer, and thus love.  They're preparing to destroy the Citadel and offer assistance in rebuilding the devestation in their wake for more beer.

[Eterna]

These anti ending threads are starting to bore me, it's been the same bull**** for four months.

[Jassu1979]

Eterna5 wrote...

These anti ending threads are starting to bore me, it's been the same bull**** for four months.

Go read something else, then. May I recommend a book?

[Thore2k10]

Yes its too much to ask! because art and integrity!

You dont win, you lose everytime because you help to achieve the starchilds goal and not shepards!

i seriously hope these threads dont die down, because then all the people who cared moved on and the greatest SF trilogy i know is finally ruined!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Are you pro-enders ****ing kidding me? Writing genocide of an entire race into a story to meet the criteria of destroying the reapers is okay with you? It makes victory okay?

The entire purpose of putting it there was to sell the other two endings. It didn't have to be carried out. It was the choice of the author to carry it out. It could have been a bluff, but of course as soon as the player found out it was a bluff, they'd never pick the other two. The galaxy was supposed to become a wasteland in all three endings. In two of them this got retconned and changed pretty quickly because now the glorious reapers help rebuild it.

However if you destroy the mighty death machines, it takes thousands of years to rebuild everything -- figure the mains get rebuilt first (centuries), but the rest i going to take a very very long time and cost a lot of money. And you get to have lots of speculations from everyone.

The purpose of the author with the ending was to trash the entire Mass Effect universe because he was tired of writing stories for it, and lacked the creativity to put a decent ending together for it. That's all.

So what happens is we, the players, get saddled with the baggage. The company builds up the story to be something different than it is in the pre-release, then we get the game and then the ****storm, all because of the author's baggage, and this is okay?

So for a real victory, we get punished, and have to commit genocide to get the victory. Yeah, some feeling of satisfaction. Shepard kills maybe 10 billion now fully individually conscious Geth who helped us win this. The reapers don't kill them. Shepard does. Yay Shepard!

So Shepard becomes a monster like Stalin. "The death of one (EDI) is a tragedy. The death of billions (the Geth) a statistic." This is what Walters reduces you to. Hero?

All the endings absolutely sucked. Control made you the emperor in Star Wars. Synthesis made you Dr. Frankenstein. Destroy made you a monster. I'm not even going to discuss Refuse -- it's dooming your entire cycle and condemning how many future cycles before they defeat these monsters?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 01 août 2012 - 09:38 .

[crimzontearz]

in before someone throws the "bioware owes us nothing" or "it is your fault you are unhappy" defense at Julia

[Necrotron]

They went for bittersweet, and for most of us, they failed horribly.

The problem wasn't necessarily the bitter, it was how it was presented, with the main villain presenting the different flavors of bitter choices to the player. (e.g. sure, you can win, but only if you commit genocide against the race you spent the last few years becoming allies with).

It is roughly equivalent to a fantasy story where the main villain holds down the hero and says 'kill the elves or everyone dies'. You could kill the elves, but would you feel victory in winning? Most people wouldn't.

A traditional western hero/story would reject the villain and win anyway, but that isn't an option here, hence no classic glorious victory.  There is only bitter victory, and a sad lonely Shepard would will never be able to live with himself again if he survives.

Modifié par Bathaius, 01 août 2012 - 10:41 .

[Lakeshow1986]

I'm against how confusing the ending was, did Shepard live or die? Even with destroy and BioWare giving us their best troll impressions and quipping that a beam could have fallen on Shepard and killed them or it was their last breath.

Personally I think it's Shepard returning to their body after interfacing with the Citadel (when the platform raises up with Shepards body), but it's confusing with TIM and Anderson, were they really there? What about that bullet wound on the abdomen where Shepard shot Anderson but he ends up wounded? We're told all though the game that you couldn't control the Reapers but then it's a choice at the end, with the plothole of "well actually they're not each an independent nation, only my tools for maintaining a balance between organics and synthetics"...what!?

[Kataphrut94]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...

I'm against how confusing the ending was, did Shepard live or die? Even with destroy and BioWare giving us their best troll impressions and quipping that a beam could have fallen on Shepard and killed them or it was their last breath.

Personally I think it's Shepard returning to their body after interfacing with the Citadel (when the platform raises up with Shepards body), but it's confusing with TIM and Anderson, were they really there? What about that bullet wound on the abdomen where Shepard shot Anderson but he ends up wounded? We're told all though the game that you couldn't control the Reapers but then it's a choice at the end, with the plothole of "well actually they're not each an independent nation, only my tools for maintaining a balance between organics and synthetics"...what!?

That quote about how Shepard could've been breathing his last breath is a misnomer. If you look at the footage at Comic-Con where the guy says it, he's quite clearly joking and just trying to rile the crowd. You can agree or disagree with that idea, but don't take it too seriously.

Also, we're never told you can't control the Reapers. We just assumed they can't be controlled and that TIM's being a mad bugger. Shepard's wound wasn't from a bullet, it was from Harbinger's laser. Finally, the Reapers are both an independant nation (being created from the liquified remains of previous species') AND tools for maintaining a balance between organics and synthetics. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Ztrobos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Are you pro-enders ****ing kidding me? Writing genocide of an entire race into a story to meet the criteria of destroying the reapers is okay with you? It makes victory okay?

The entire purpose of putting it there was to sell the other two endings. It didn't have to be carried out. It was the choice of the author to carry it out. It could have been a bluff, but of course as soon as the player found out it was a bluff, they'd never pick the other two. The galaxy was supposed to become a wasteland in all three endings. In two of them this got retconned and changed pretty quickly because now the glorious reapers help rebuild it.

However if you destroy the mighty death machines, it takes thousands of years to rebuild everything -- figure the mains get rebuilt first (centuries), but the rest i going to take a very very long time and cost a lot of money. And you get to have lots of speculations from everyone.

The purpose of the author with the ending was to trash the entire Mass Effect universe because he was tired of writing stories for it, and lacked the creativity to put a decent ending together for it. That's all.

So what happens is we, the players, get saddled with the baggage. The company builds up the story to be something different than it is in the pre-release, then we get the game and then the ****storm, all because of the author's baggage, and this is okay?

So for a real victory, we get punished, and have to commit genocide to get the victory. Yeah, some feeling of satisfaction. Shepard kills maybe 10 billion now fully individually conscious Geth who helped us win this. The reapers don't kill them. Shepard does. Yay Shepard!

So Shepard becomes a monster like Stalin. "The death of one (EDI) is a tragedy. The death of billions (the Geth) a statistic." This is what Walters reduces you to. Hero?

All the endings absolutely sucked. Control made you the emperor in Star Wars. Synthesis made you Dr. Frankenstein. Destroy made you a monster. I'm not even going to discuss Refuse -- it's dooming your entire cycle and condemning how many future cycles before they defeat these monsters?

This is why the Council has Specters, to do what must be done to preserve galactic status quo. You can try to get away as clean as you can. But in the end, you´re hired to be an assassin and a butcher when they need you to be. The ending presented a simple choice to Shepard: Can I do this job? Yes. Win.