495 réponses à ce sujet

[hostaman]

Jassu1979 wrote...

And here we have it, ladies and gentlemen: a toffee-nosed hipster who actually believes that what ME3 delivered was High Art rather than just bad writing, looking down at the lowly masses who are just too primitive to get it.

Wait a minute... is that you, Mac Walters?

Not too keen on toffee, and I've never hugged a tree. I just hold a different opinion to you. I understand how the majority of players didn't like the ending of ME, hoping for something more akin to blowing up the death star. But I personally enjoyed it, and preferred it to a typical Hollywood ending.

I've written on other treads that the gaming industry will learn a great deal from this, that gamers are not ready for games to take on more complex less black and white stories. This is no criticism of players such as yourself, just stark reality.

I am able to understand your feellings toward the game, it's just a shame you can't understand mine.

Holding a daisy as I speak {smilie}.

[Dormiglione]

Persephone wrote...

So more player-pandering, less in game consequences (War on such a scale NEVER ends in a clear victory. Wait, no, any war never ends in complete victory that makes everybody happy. War does not work like that).

After EC-ME3 (Paragon Control), I felt fulfilled, moved and inspired. The "I DID IT!" rush wasn't there, no. It was even better: It wasn't just "Wooooooohoooooooo! Killed the dragon/reaper/blah! I rock!" feeling, but a lingering feeling of bittersweet affection. The feeling I usually get after reading a book like "Anna Karenina" or "Wuthering Heights".

*Shrugs* 

And keeping the reapers alive? No, even if they are used for good, never. They are an A.I. so they know what they did, just my personal opinion, revenge is the only option that gave me a little satisfaction, not much.

[sistersafetypin]

Meltemph wrote...

The reason you feel like that is because you have come to the realization that post ME3, the ME universe is effectivly broke, without them completely ignoring 3 of the 4 endings.

Which means they killed ME post ME3 endings, without pulling a rabit out of their hat.

Unfortuntely true. Bioware is now simply a team of artists. And your pain is art

[SpamBot2000]

Persephone wrote...

So more player-pandering, less in game consequences (War on such a scale NEVER ends in a clear victory. Wait, no, any war never ends in complete victory that makes everybody happy. War does not work like that).

After EC-ME3 (Paragon Control), I felt fulfilled, moved and inspired. The "I DID IT!" rush wasn't there, no. It was even better: It wasn't just "Wooooooohoooooooo! Killed the dragon/reaper/blah! I rock!" feeling, but a lingering feeling of bittersweet affection. The feeling I usually get after reading a book like "Anna Karenina" or "Wuthering Heights".

*Shrugs* 

Preposterous much? While I agree the Tactical Headshooting in ME3 was well up to Bronte standards, I still feel the ending failed to deliver much bittersweet in the whole surrender to the space elf conceit.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 31 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[Xellith]

I got the same sense of "victory" with the EC as I do with completing a tekken tournament on easy with Hworang where all you do is just keep pushing X and O randomly.

[Jassu1979]

hostaman wrote...

I am able to understand your feellings toward the game, it's just a shame you can't understand mine.

Oh, I understand - and still detect a considerable amount of condescension.

See, I find that the ending(s) of ME3 are neither particularly profound nor complex, and that you confuse "dark and gritty" with "deep and artistic".
Mass Effect 3 wasn't the video game equivalent of "2001": it was not even particularly daring in what it tried to achieve.
It simply grafted an utterly implausible and incompatible twist ending onto the trilogy, wrecking the whole Mass Effect storyline as a consequence.

Here's a link to a creative writing site that was not written with ME3 in mind, but highlights pretty much everything that's wrong with the ending.

http://www.writersdi...f-novel-endings

Now, you might say that such rules are made to be broken, (and possibly even claim that this is the mark of a true artist; or more than that, his sacred duty in defying convention and going where no one has gone before).

I don't *necessarily* disagree. Certainly, you *can* ignore such rules - but it takes a considerable degree of skill to pull it off, and that skill marks the dividing line between genius and a simple storytelling failure. Walters and Hudson may have aimed high, but they missed their goal by a far margin. Spectacularly and tragically so.
Their newly introduced plot about post-singularity AIs threatening all organic life comes straight out of the blue, and there is no way to sufficiently connect that to the rest of the plot in a satisfactory manner.

[crimzontearz]

Sorry op, it is not art enough....

[Persephone]

Dormiglione wrote...

Persephone wrote...

So more player-pandering, less in game consequences (War on such a scale NEVER ends in a clear victory. Wait, no, any war never ends in complete victory that makes everybody happy. War does not work like that).

After EC-ME3 (Paragon Control), I felt fulfilled, moved and inspired. The "I DID IT!" rush wasn't there, no. It was even better: It wasn't just "Wooooooohoooooooo! Killed the dragon/reaper/blah! I rock!" feeling, but a lingering feeling of bittersweet affection. The feeling I usually get after reading a book like "Anna Karenina" or "Wuthering Heights".

*Shrugs* 

And keeping the reapers alive? No, even if they are used for good, never. They are an A.I. so they know what they did, just my personal opinion, revenge is the only option that gave me a little satisfaction, not much.

I guess that's the difference then. I always considered vengeance to be meaningless, pointless and empty. I never found any satisfaction in it whatsoever.

[Persephone]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

So more player-pandering, less in game consequences (War on such a scale NEVER ends in a clear victory. Wait, no, any war never ends in complete victory that makes everybody happy. War does not work like that).

After EC-ME3 (Paragon Control), I felt fulfilled, moved and inspired. The "I DID IT!" rush wasn't there, no. It was even better: It wasn't just "Wooooooohoooooooo! Killed the dragon/reaper/blah! I rock!" feeling, but a lingering feeling of bittersweet affection. The feeling I usually get after reading a book like "Anna Karenina" or "Wuthering Heights".

*Shrugs* 

Preposterous much? While I agree the Tactical Headshooting in ME3 was well up to Bronte standards, I still feel the ending failed to deliver much bittersweet in the whole surrender to the space elf conceit.

No more preposterous than the "I want everything on MY terms." sentiment, to be honest.

That is not how the world works. In fiction as well as in life. Personally, I thought it was refreshing.

And sure, I just love Jane Eyre for all the tactical headshots she delivers.

[AxStapleton]

Persephone wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

Persephone wrote...

So more player-pandering, less in game consequences (War on such a scale NEVER ends in a clear victory. Wait, no, any war never ends in complete victory that makes everybody happy. War does not work like that).

After EC-ME3 (Paragon Control), I felt fulfilled, moved and inspired. The "I DID IT!" rush wasn't there, no. It was even better: It wasn't just "Wooooooohoooooooo! Killed the dragon/reaper/blah! I rock!" feeling, but a lingering feeling of bittersweet affection. The feeling I usually get after reading a book like "Anna Karenina" or "Wuthering Heights".

*Shrugs* 

And keeping the reapers alive? No, even if they are used for good, never. They are an A.I. so they know what they did, just my personal opinion, revenge is the only option that gave me a little satisfaction, not much.

I guess that's the difference then. I always considered vengeance to be meaningless, pointless and empty. I never found any satisfaction in it whatsoever.

If I'm being honest, Control and Synthesis seriously creeped me out but that's just me.

[Ozida]

Wining ME1 and ME2 as felt like wining a marathon and getting golden medal at the end.
ME3 pre-EC was like stepping on rock right before finish line, falling down and breaking your skull to bleed to death.
ME3 post-EC was like stepping on rock right before finish line, breaking your leg and slowly crawling to the finish.

It was not victories for me. Sure, I crossed the line after all, but it was rather sad and painful experience.

[GreyLycanTrope]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The reason you feel like that is because you have come to the realization that post ME3, the ME universe is effectivly broke, without them completely ignoring 3 of the 4 endings.

Which means they killed ME post ME3 endings, without pulling a rabit out of their hat.

Unfortuntely true. Bioware is now simply a team of artists. And your pain is art

THIS HURST ME!

[SpamBot2000]

Persephone wrote...

No more preposterous than the "I want everything on MY terms." sentiment, to be honest.

That is not how the world works. In fiction as well as in life. Personally, I thought it was refreshing.

And sure, I just love Jane Eyre for all the tactical headshots she delivers.

Ah yes, the irrational sentiment of wanting a trilogy of RPGs about resisting the Reapers not ending with going along with Reaper plans. Because the laws of nature and fiction clearly dictate such a course. And the refreshment value alone is immense.

As for the condescension, save it for the easily impressed. I think I've read three novels too.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 31 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[mongoosephantom]

Jassu1979 wrote...

hostaman wrote...

I am able to understand your feellings toward the game, it's just a shame you can't understand mine.

Oh, I understand - and still detect a considerable amount of condescension.

See, I find that the ending(s) of ME3 are neither particularly profound nor complex, and that you confuse "dark and gritty" with "deep and artistic".
Mass Effect 3 wasn't the video game equivalent of "2001": it was not even particularly daring in what it tried to achieve.
It simply grafted an utterly implausible and incompatible twist ending onto the trilogy, wrecking the whole Mass Effect storyline as a consequence.

Here's a link to a creative writing site that was not written with ME3 in mind, but highlights pretty much everything that's wrong with the ending.

http://www.writersdi...f-novel-endings

Now, you might say that such rules are made to be broken, (and possibly even claim that this is the mark of a true artist; or more than that, his sacred duty in defying convention and going where no one has gone before).

I don't *necessarily* disagree. Certainly, you *can* ignore such rules - but it takes a considerable degree of skill to pull it off, and that skill marks the dividing line between genius and a simple storytelling failure. Walters and Hudson may have aimed high, but they missed their goal by a far margin. Spectacularly and tragically so.
Their newly introduced plot about post-singularity AIs threatening all organic life comes straight out of the blue, and there is no way to sufficiently connect that to the rest of the plot in a satisfactory manner.

I couldnt agree more. I didnt like the fact that Catalyst was introduced in the last 10 minutes. On my 1st playthrought pre-EC i chose Destroy because i thought that it was the "right" and "canon" option since i knew that whoever tried to control the Reapers before had failed, and Synthesis sounded like a trap to me. The endings didnt make any sense mostly because they chose to ignore those rules and follow their "artistic vision".

[xxskyshadowxx]

DocGriffin wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...
Synthesis- no, just no completely creeps me out aside from completely killing all culture:sick:
Control- too many variables too much possibility for Shep to go crazy and restart the cycle
Destroy- just look at my sig and take a guess
All of the choices were choosing how you lose not choosing how you win.  I just wanted a victory, maybe with some losses, but not entire sentient races, and then a clip of Shepard with his/her LI a la TDKR.  I really do not think that is too much to ask.

Oh I see, you were looking for an ending without any bittersweet elements to it. Honestly, I went into the game knowing there wouldn't be a 'perfect' ending. It's practically drilled into your head that 'hey, we're not coming out of this unscathed,' so I think if you come to terms with that it's a lot easier to enjoy the endings.


And as far as the 'the choices were choosing how you lose' comment, I disagree, it's more which side of bitter would you like with your sweet. And honestly, that bitter can change from person to person. For example, I don't have any 'space magic' or moral issues with Synthesis, the bitter for me there is Shepard dying. I suppose it's a pick your poison scenario, but certainly not a choice of loss altogether. All the endings felt like a win scenario for me.

The definition of bittersweet is literally "both pleasant and painful." There is lots of painful in the endings: The fact that the writers of them ignored much of their own established content, failed to follow basic narrative process, and borrowed quite a bit from a much older game. The fact that they forced Shepard into these canned three choices, all of which go against the very principles the character had previously seemed to stand for, some of which negated some pretty hefty accomplishments/decisions the character may have completed in that very game, rendering most of what was done completely pointless. The fact that with EC, the whole galaxy abandons Shepard at the end, not just his squad like in the pre-EC ending. Space brat in it's entirety and the fact that the devs completely ignored the fact that they locked Shepard up alone with the brain controlling the Pawns attacking earth (formerly known as the "Unfathomable" Reapers)...with a gun with infinite ammo no less...yet conventional victory is impossible...um...just because it is. And the fact that the devs aren't even brave enough to completely commit to the fact that Shepard died. And what the heck was up with the Destiny Ascension? So you save it in ME and get a seconds long shakey cam close-up, and that's IT...you don't get to see the giant gun fire off at a Reaper even once? Really? The Thessians deserved at least one cool bit of epicness after the depressing fall of their planet. Bitter-SWEET BioWare...bittersweet...there are two parts to the word.

Now for the pleasant: Well...Reapers aren't shooting stuff anymore. If you chose to make Shepard the new Reaper Overlord, she/he/it is out there watching over (likely eventually ruling over) everyone. If you chose Synthesis, hats are sentient, and jeans can tell you themselves whether or not they make your butt look fat...and everyone has LED eyes...never struggle to open your car door at night again! And if you chose Destroy, you got to see Shepard take his/her last breath and his/her LI (if you chose the right one) seems to have a feeling that he/she is still alive....even though clearly no one had bothered to look for him/her and with those injuries he/she wasn't going to last very lon--oopsie, guess that has to go up into the bitter listing.

An effective "bittersweet" ending is actually very difficult to do, especially in a trilogy. There needs to be a good balance between the pleasant and the painful. In ME3, that does not exist; it's tipped way too far to the bitter, and while for some folks that is perfectly fine (I expect there are tons of people who loved watching Melancholia), for many, it's just too much, especially at the very end of an epic that previously was very, very uplifting. That's why people are still struggling with it, and why there are still a lot of complaints.

Modifié par xxskyshadowxx, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:04 .

[Candidate 88766]

hostaman wrote...
I understand how the majority of players didn't like the ending of ME, hoping for something more akin to blowing up the death star. But I personally enjoyed it, and preferred it to a typical Hollywood ending.

I've written on other treads that the gaming industry will learn a great deal from this, that gamers are not ready for games to take on more complex less black and white stories. 

I actually kinda agree with this.

I think Bioware did the end really badly. Partly because it made little sense, but mostly because choices and themes from the trilogy had no impact on it. However, I'm glad that they tried to do something different. They've been telling us all along just how powerful the Reapers are. I personally feel that a victory without massive loss would be a disservice to the plot. I get why most people don't like that, and I wouldn't bregrudge a happy ending to those that want one, but I personally feel that a bittersweet/bleak ending is much more powerful in this case. And I'm glad that Bioware at least tried to do this. I'm gutted they couldn't pull it off, but I appreciate them trying. Thats no excuse for choices having no impact though.

[dirty console peasant]

xsdob wrote...

Can I just say that I feel like I won and had a victory, just so we can get it out there that people like me exist and that there is not a unanimous feeling on this.

Too many times these threads become echo chambers, it's good to remind people that their is more than 1 point of view.

Yes you can, and I get where you are coming from.  It is just that there is a large portion of the fanbase that are not satisfied with the ending that we got, and do not feel victorious.  I have no problem with your point of view, I simply do not share it.  If you like the current endings I am not asking for them to be removed, I am simply asking for an ending without a lemon tacked on for absolutely no reason, where we do not aquiese to the enemy.

[riesenwiesel]

hostaman wrote...
I understand how the majority of players didn't like the ending of ME, hoping for something more akin to blowing up the death star. But I personally enjoyed it, and preferred it to a typical Hollywood ending.

I don't get it. Bittersweet emo cliffhangers seem very Hollywood-like for me.

[SpamBot2000]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

hostaman wrote...
I understand how the majority of players didn't like the ending of ME, hoping for something more akin to blowing up the death star. But I personally enjoyed it, and preferred it to a typical Hollywood ending.

I've written on other treads that the gaming industry will learn a great deal from this, that gamers are not ready for games to take on more complex less black and white stories. 

I actually kinda agree with this.

I think Bioware did the end really badly. Partly because it made little sense, but mostly because choices and themes from the trilogy had no impact on it. However, I'm glad that they tried to do something different. They've been telling us all along just how powerful the Reapers are. I personally feel that a victory without massive loss would be a disservice to the plot. I get why most people don't like that, and I wouldn't bregrudge a happy ending to those that want one, but I personally feel that a bittersweet/bleak ending is much more powerful in this case. And I'm glad that Bioware at least tried to do this. I'm gutted they couldn't pull it off, but I appreciate them trying. Thats no excuse for choices having no impact though.

Personally I find the poster's patronizing attitude about "gamers" not being "ready" for the profound experience of ME3 so misguided that I cannot take him seriously at all.

And BW attempting to do something "different"? Anyone believing this really needs a crash course in popular culture.

[Mcfly616]

Exozze wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

What's wrong with you OP??? How dare you criticize Mac & Casey work????........this is pure Artistic Integrity and you have to LIKE. BW commands you to LIKE it! Got it??? Otherwise you are an entitled whiner.

<_<

Great quote from Babylon 5. "An artist is nothing without his audience". That should have left them something to think about. 

I think their audience is doing just fine.....the millions that like the game are spending their time playing it, while the people that hate it are spending their time here on the forums.....

[ShepnTali]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The reason you feel like that is because you have come to the realization that post ME3, the ME universe is effectivly broke, without them completely ignoring 3 of the 4 endings.

Which means they killed ME post ME3 endings, without pulling a rabit out of their hat.

Unfortuntely true. Bioware is now simply a team of artists. And your pain is art

The late great Bob Ross they are not.

[Ozida]

Mcfly616 wrote...
I think their audience is doing just fine.....the millions that like the game are spending their time playing it, while the people that hate it are spending their time here on the forums.....

Wait, what?.. Where do you get this data from?

Modifié par Ozida, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:48 .

[shodiswe]

Apparently it wasn't a story abotu achivign a victory, it was a bittersweet very dark ending where you realize there was no victory to be had, but possibly an end to the nightmare.

[ShepnTali]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Exozze wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

What's wrong with you OP??? How dare you criticize Mac & Casey work????........this is pure Artistic Integrity and you have to LIKE. BW commands you to LIKE it! Got it??? Otherwise you are an entitled whiner.

<_<

Great quote from Babylon 5. "An artist is nothing without his audience". That should have left them something to think about. 

I think their audience is doing just fine.....the millions that like the game are spending their time playing it, while the people that hate it are spending their time here on the forums.....

Realistically, a good chunk of people have probably shelved or sold the game, not because it's good or bad, but because they move on to the new shiney or generally play it once and that's it.

[Fawx9]

I find it funny that some think Destory without the Geth dieing is unacceptably happy.

Last checked body count goes like this :
All home worlds near ravaged(to the point where you can see fires from space)
Fueling infrastructure destroyed
Citadel populace wiped out by Reaper forces (Is the council even alive?)
Mass Relays badly damaged
Squad member deaths (variable and determined)
Anderson

Oh and for all our green/blue space magic friends, we have no Reapers. AKA we have no idea how the Relays work, yet we have to put them together by ourselves meaning our worlds are probably isolated and left to fend for themselves (in a period of galactic chaos) whereas you get your big cuttle fish friends to repair them for you.

Apparently having the extra potential of losing worlds due to lack of resources and the political unrest caused by all this was still considered too happy so they added EDI and the Geth dieing to make it seem all the more dark and edgy.

Modifié par Fawx9, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .