490 réponses à ce sujet

[krukow]

mauro2222 wrote...

krukow wrote...

But the only evidence we have is that he likes women.  And from a meta perspective, you can only romance him if you're a woman.  And since the game does include a S/S romance (Liara), it's safe to assume the characters are aware of homosexuality (even though femshep has that dumb "but I'm a girl" line).

I'm not arguing from a lack of evidence.  I'm following all the evidence to the logical conclusion.  You're making the teacup orbiting jupiter arguement (yeah, but how do you KNOW???). 

And again, I don't care about the evolution.  I just think him discovering new feelings is the proper explanation.

Oh, wait. I get it.

Well if you metagame then yeah, you right. I wasn't trying to use an illogical argument here. If someone doesn't tell you in the face what he likes, then you can't be 100% sure ('cause you know, you aren't that person), that's what I was trying to say.

That's fair.  And again, I'll allow for him being a lot less straight, than say, someone like Ashley.  There's could totally be stuff underneath the surface.  I just like the characters to be kept in continuity because characters are my favorite part of the ME trilogy, even the ones I'm not allowed to play with after Virmire

[Mavqt]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Only idiots and trolls are against same sex relationships.
So whilst many people are fine and happy that bioware implmented them, there will always be a small vocal minority against them

This.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

What annoys me is this: fairness. Having the characters "become bi" isn't the problem. It's what Bioware did.

It's the way the game is targetted. My sexuality is no one's business. I'll admit 9 playthoughs (okay I got obsessed with the game) as femShep and one as maleShep.

femShepard in ME1 has Kaiden or Liara. Fine. I did one with Kaiden, and will cop to 8 with Liara (whom I count as s/s). ...... ME2 (before LOTSB) has Jacob (the Prize), Thane, or Garrus, and Kelly so your fish won't die (note even if she gets squeezed to goop her spirit will keep your fish alive). W/ LOTSB you get to rekindle w/ Liara if you romanced in ME1 ("but we were on break!"). ME3 if you romanced Jacob he dumps you, Thane dies, if you didn't romance Garrus he's unavailable, and if you didn't romance Kaiden he's not availble, leaving you with Liara if you romanced her in ME1, Samantha, Kelly, or Allers. Good thing I picked Liara, huh? The femShep romances in ME3 are skewed toware S/S.

Now maleShepard romances in ME3 are skewed toward O/S with Kaiden and Steve as S/S options. I looked this up in the Wikia. I may have missed one. I romanced Ash with maleShepard. I didn't play ME3 w/ maleShepard since I've only gone through ME3 twice and see no point in inflicting pain on myself more than that.

James just has taken too many steroids to be much good at anything.

I'm glad the put the s/s options in the game. They're very progressive that way. My objection is how they limited options for femShep if the player was wanting to play a hetero femShep.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:12 .

[JBPBRC]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

James just has taken too many steroids to be much good at anything.

Pull-ups! Lots of pull-ups!

[flanny]

krukow wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

krukow wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Ok so he's into women, show me in ME where he is not into men sexualy.

Or romantically.

That's an arguement from silence.  Just FYI.  It's a fallacy.

Why? Love and sexual attraction are two different things, more when love is irrational.

No, I mean to say "show me where he isn't interested in men, therefor he was bi" is an arguement from silence.  You're trying to use a lack of evidence as evidence for your side.  I may as well say "Show me where he isn't attracted to children".  Same logical fallacy.

Kaidan was straight in ME1, though with some under the surface stuff.  He fully discovered new feelings in ME3.  This is fine.  It just means his character evolved from what it had been.  Does it make it better if I use the word evolve instead of change?

I agree, but apparently evolving is fine, changing isn't... 

[jlb524]

 

mauro2222 wrote...
 Well if you metagame then yeah, you right. I wasn't trying to use an illogical argument here.

Nah, you can't use metagame knowledge to try and prove something in universe though.

krukow is trying to prove that Kaidan was straight in universe in ME1 and using the metagame knowledge that FemShep can flirt but MaleShep can't won't do it.

[themikefest]

I don't mind s/s romances my femshep enjoyed being with traynor

[KotorEffect3]

Eh I don't pursue them myself but I don't mind that they are in the game. Everyone has their own thing

[Tritium315]

Traynor was well written because she had characterization beyond being a lesbian. Her being gay wasn't even brought up outright until the shower scene from what I recall. On the other hand, Steve's defining characteristic was that he was gay; it permeated nearly every conversation you have with him. With Traynor I knew more about her toothbrush than her love life.

Basically Traynor was written as a character who happened to be gay, while Steve was a gay character.

Modifié par Tritium315, 31 juillet 2012 - 06:53 .

[incinerator950]

Don't care about it. Most of it, like all of the romances, is contrived for panfanning. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have delved into it (and a lot of the romances) simply to give more leeway for story time.

Like all the romances, again, I hate how they're seemingly forced on you. Shepard might not have been bi (Liara is some weird exception) because of cut dialogue, but they intentionally cut it out on choice, not time. They should have stuck to it, because they don't offer the magic insight like DA2 why the main character is magically bi, or okay with it (no offense). It is more immersion breaking now. Still, its not completely in your face, but I should be allowed to buy gifts platonically for my squadmates.

Also, Why are Traynor and Cortez copypastas of Shepard's body?

[Y3Y00]

I'm content with it. I mean I pursued a same sex relationship with Liara, so it would be hypocritical if I were to detest M/M. As for the general consensus, I bet the majority were indifferent/okay about it. As it should be.

[NRieh]

How about we just stop calling characters bi/homosexual/heterosexual and simply pretend they're whatever we want them to be for our playthroughs?

The Worst Idea Ever. NPCs are called so for a reason. NON player characters, which act either as sctips and writers or GM tells them to. Shepard with all his choices is the only "variable" character, rest of the galaxy are supposed to be constants, which may interact with him, but yet - exist on their own. You may ask "what's the big deal is he bi or gay or whatever?" - there is a big deal. Sexuality is same part of character as anything else - like biotics, calibration, poetry or enviromental suit. Take out or change any - character will change.

Next. Kaidan Alenko. There are two different things about accepting or rejecting his "change". First - ME3. Now there's nothing to do about it - he is bi. Some femsheps may say "no he is not" - but I won't ever do so. Because - read above. I don't think it is right to vary non player characters. So - bi, obvious. He is happy to continue romance with femshep and he also may offer new one to sheploo. I'm (straight female) ok with it (yes, it was a surprise first, but Jacob-mancer had it worse... 8P ), my femshep (straight female, faithful) is ok with it, it perfectly fits my headcanon, bla-bla, happy everafter.

Another part is ME1 and its cuts. Let's figure it this way - no matter if you consider him straight, bi or gay or gethmaniac in ME1 - he has NO romantic options for Sheploo in ME1. That's canon - sorry, guys. Yes, I know it was "taken out", but "taken out" is key word. Game does not have it.

Yes, I know about mods. And some even use them. But that's not canon. Headcanon - you're welcome. but make sure you can tell one from another. Headcanons are sacred, and not to be judged or argued. But they aslo can never serve as pro or con arguments.

And I also hear from some s\\s supporters in Kaidan thread that they are ok with "virtual" ME1 romance (no mods), and that it only adds to Kaidan's s\\s arc in ME3.

About Ashley not being turned into lesbian.

If both are romanceable to both sexes, then they're not different characters? But one still quotes Tennyson and the other doesn't. That would make them different, no?

The little and often misunderstood fact, that they ARE different character does not support the idea that Ashley should change her orientation just because Kaidan would have done so (apparantly - he does not exist in Ashley's universe).

She changed....in her own way. And it has nothing to do with who likes whom better. I also liked Ash v. ME1 better, but, hyou, know, I also liked my old boyfriend how he was 10 years ago better, and BW artists did nothing change him - trust me.

But her changes do not explain and excuse rocket-promotion into officers and non-practical cobmat suit, unfortunately. I know that Samara also wears high heels...but hey - she's asari justicar, you know...Even Liara uses flat boots.

[Dragon_Claw]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Only idiots and trolls are against same sex relationships.
So whilst many people are fine and happy that bioware implmented them, there will always be a small vocal minority against them

Modifié par Dragon_Claw, 31 juillet 2012 - 07:17 .

[krukow]

Dragon_Claw wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Only idiots and trolls are against same sex relationships.
So whilst many people are fine and happy that bioware implmented them, there will always be a small vocal minority against them

that is amazing.

[NRieh]

You said they are different characters because after all one quotes Tennyson and the other doesn't.
According to that, if both are romanceable by both sexes AND one quotes Tennyson while the other doesn't, the characters are still different, despite being romanceable by both sexes.

But if BW followed your way thay both would have SAME change.

Isn't it clear? Think about it a little. Deep breath. Ashley is not same as Kaidan. She should and could NOT change same as Kaidan. And...ta-da!...she did not change same as Kaidan. Problem?

[krukow]

Nrieh wrote...

You said they are different characters because after all one quotes Tennyson and the other doesn't.
According to that, if both are romanceable by both sexes AND one quotes Tennyson while the other doesn't, the characters are still different, despite being romanceable by both sexes.

But if BW followed your way thay both would have SAME change.

Isn't it clear? Think about it a little. Deep breath. Ashley is not same as Kaidan. She should and could NOT change same as Kaidan. And...ta-da!...she did not change same as Kaidan. Problem?

Ashely grew up very close to her family.  Her father was often absent as he was serving in the alliance.  She was an older sister and had to take care of her younger sisters.  Her family name has held her back because her grandfather is considered something of a traitor.
She's a marine who's worked hard her whole life to prove herself.  She's religious, even though some people don't understand that given what we know about the universe.  And she has a great, snarky sense of humor.

None of these things apply to Kaidan.  They're TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.  One's change should have nothing to do with the other's.  You may as well argue that Tali should be bi too, since they're both ME1 characters.

Modifié par krukow, 31 juillet 2012 - 07:31 .

[jlb524]

Nrieh wrote...
But if BW followed your way thay both would have SAME change.

Isn't it clear? Think about it a little. Deep breath. Ashley is not same as Kaidan. She should and could NOT change same as Kaidan.

Like when they both changed in the SAME way and became Spectres.

Wait, what?

[HiddenInWar]

krukow wrote...

Dragon_Claw wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Only idiots and trolls are against same sex relationships.
So whilst many people are fine and happy that bioware implmented them, there will always be a small vocal minority against them

that is amazing.

*clap* 

[psrz]

Tritium315 wrote...

Traynor was well written because she had characterization beyond being a lesbian. Her being gay wasn't even brought up outright until the shower scene from what I recall. On the other hand, Steve's defining characteristic was that he was gay; it permeated nearly every conversation you have with him. With Traynor I knew more about her toothbrush than her love life.

Basically Traynor was written as a character who happened to be gay, while Steve was a gay character.

STEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVE was written like that so male players wouldn't be "tricked" into liking a cool dude first and then finding out he's gay. "oh, noez, i'm ruined !!" I think that could have messed up a lot minds around here....

[Kathleen321]

I loved that they introduced new characters that where gay instead of making everyone bi. And I love that Kaidan is bisexual.

Cortez was a great character. I think he was purty chill about his sexuality so that any super straight dudes that play this game don't feel too awkward. But I'm not a guy so I wouldn't know.

Traynor was an ok character but I wanted to get to know her better instead of the writers trying to push the, "she's awesome you should like her" thing. Haven't they ever heard of "Show don't tell?" I actually took a shower with her in my first playthrough to see how her romance went but reloaded cause I felt bad about cheating on Kaidan. And I must say I was really disapointed in her romance. In all of the other romances their is a relationship that leads up to the sex scene. With Samatha it was a "lesbian hook up" :/

As for Kaidan being bi. I understand that a lot of people are mad because bisexuality angers a lot of people. Honestly human sexuality isn't like soup can labels. Sure most of us are "born" a certain way but sometimes sexually curious people try out a relationship with one person of the same sex that they find themselves attracted to. I don't even know if Kaidan is bisexual. He may even be considered pansexual. He finds himself attracted to Male Shepard because he respects and trusts him. Sure he only expressed interest in women in the second game but maybe Shepard is the only man he's ever been attracted to.

[BatmanPWNS]

I remember the months before ME3 came out, the war of anti vs. pro was beautiful to watch.

[Demonique]

I was disappointed

Garrus' "You're not going to propose marriage, are you?" should have led to the option to hit on Garrus

[Dragon_Claw]

Demonique wrote...

I was disappointed

Garrus' "You're not going to propose marriage, are you?" should have led to the option to hit on Garrus

It does...