490 réponses à ce sujet

[wizardryforever]

Flog61 wrote...

Alex_Dur4and wrote...

Whatever floats your boat!!

I love this game on this aspect! It's a personal thing and the options are there. I played an unfaithful "douche bag" heterosexual male renegade Shepard on one of my playthrough and a faithful paragon female Shepard that fell in love with Liara (many may consider this as being S/S but I don't care because I don't think Asari work that way...)

After my paragon playthrough, I realized that no matter if I played a male or female character in a third playthrough, I would choose Liara and be faithful to her as a favorite option... Go figure!

The definition of a same sex relationship is a relationship where the people taking part in it are, you guessed it, the same sex.

Femshep is female. Asari are female. LiaraxFemshep is a S/S romance because, no matter what you say, femshep would only be attracted to liara's body if she was a lesbian, and so you can play a lesbian femshep but not a gay broshep in the first 2 games

Well I think that the reason why many people consider it to not be a lesbian relationship is the fact that Liara doesn't see gender as being important to who she's attracted to.  And I don't mean just that she's bisexual.  I mean that she only perceives the concept of gender on a conceptual level.  It's all abstract to her.  And she belongs to a race that has only one gender (that most people shoehorn into being female for various reasons), so it's very grey.  In that perspective, it isn't a female/female relationship, it's a female/other relationship.  So it's basically a one-sided lesbian relationship.  I think this is how Bioware managed to not include any male/male romances, because they felt that Liara and Femshep weren't a true female/female.

[The Angry One]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well I think that the reason why many people consider it to not be a lesbian relationship is the fact that Liara doesn't see gender as being important to who she's attracted to.  And I don't mean just that she's bisexual.  I mean that she only perceives the concept of gender on a conceptual level.  It's all abstract to her.  And she belongs to a race that has only one gender (that most people shoehorn into being female for various reasons), so it's very grey.  In that perspective, it isn't a female/female relationship, it's a female/other relationship.  So it's basically a one-sided lesbian relationship.  I think this is how Bioware managed to not include any male/male romances, because they felt that Liara and Femshep weren't a true female/female.

And those are really just excuses. We see multiple times throughout the series that Asari are appreciative of gender specific attributes. Just hear Aethtya talk about Benezia's "assets".
That Asari don't factor other species' gender in determining a mate doesn't mean they don't recognise females of other species as their own gender.

[K2LU533]

I open my arms gladly to anything that brings diversity. Having gay romance options just makes sense. I also thought the two new romance options were well written and not cliched.

[Fiery Phoenix]

As someone who was originally opposed to the idea of homosexual romances in Mass Effect, I find their inclusion in ME3 seamless if not well implemented. Obviously, the decision is still highly controversial, but as long as it's working out, I don't really care. I think these kinds of romances, if nothing else, broaden the horizon for more options. It worked in DA2. No reason it wasn't about to work in ME3.

The only real issue is they weren't exactly balanced in ME3, as both Steve and Samantha are strictly homosexual. FemShep also has less possible options than her male counterpart as a result, which I didn't particularly like.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[wizardryforever]

The Angry One wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well I think that the reason why many people consider it to not be a lesbian relationship is the fact that Liara doesn't see gender as being important to who she's attracted to.  And I don't mean just that she's bisexual.  I mean that she only perceives the concept of gender on a conceptual level.  It's all abstract to her.  And she belongs to a race that has only one gender (that most people shoehorn into being female for various reasons), so it's very grey.  In that perspective, it isn't a female/female relationship, it's a female/other relationship.  So it's basically a one-sided lesbian relationship.  I think this is how Bioware managed to not include any male/male romances, because they felt that Liara and Femshep weren't a true female/female.

And those are really just excuses. We see multiple times throughout the series that Asari are appreciative of gender specific attributes. Just hear Aethtya talk about Benezia's "assets".
That Asari don't factor other species' gender in determining a mate doesn't mean they don't recognise females of other species as their own gender.

Personally I think the whole concept of having no gender is kinda ruined if that species identifies more with a particular gender in other species.  It's mixed messages.

And Aethyta was referring to another asari when talking up Benezia's rack, so that doesn't really count.  We know that the find one another attractive (asari in general, I mean), because if they didn't, their species would have died out a long time ago.  Prior to ME3, most of the asari relationships that we see are with male aliens (or male humans), then they show two asari with female human relationships to balance it out in ME3.  Like I said, it's not just bisexuality, because bisexual people still identify themselves as a gender and often favor one gender as a partner.  The asari don't care at all about their partner's gender, because they themselves don't have a gender.  It's all academic to them.

[ddraigcoch123]

Apologies in advance for this....

As 'gender' is a social construct that attempts to ascribe approved stereotypical behavior based only on the 'sex' (i.e. as exhibiting male or female genitals) then it would be completely unknown to any 'alien' race particularly Asari who would not carve up the members of their community along those lines...

And according to my codex (on my iphone) the Asari are an all female race...

And it will depend on how you head-cannon your individual Shep as to what her sexuality is but if she is into women/females and she gets it together with Liara then from her perspective that is a S/S relationship in the terms of her own culture and understanding...

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:51 .

[F4H bandicoot]

From ME1's "Galactic Codex: Essentials": The Asari are a female humanoid race....

GC:E is from 1's limited ed BTW.

[The Angry One]

wizardryforever wrote...

Personally I think the whole concept of having no gender is kinda ruined if that species identifies more with a particular gender in other species.  It's mixed messages.

And Aethyta was referring to another asari when talking up Benezia's rack, so that doesn't really count.  We know that the find one another attractive (asari in general, I mean), because if they didn't, their species would have died out a long time ago.  Prior to ME3, most of the asari relationships that we see are with male aliens (or male humans), then they show two asari with female human relationships to balance it out in ME3.  Like I said, it's not just bisexuality, because bisexual people still identify themselves as a gender and often favor one gender as a partner.  The asari don't care at all about their partner's gender, because they themselves don't have a gender.  It's all academic to them.

They do have a gender. "Monogendered" means one gender. Not no gender.

Liara isn't the final authority on this. She may just be making excuses since she's aware some species tend to display bigotry towards Asari sexuality, and hasn't been around many humans at the point she's explaining these things.

[FKA_Servo]

The Angry One wrote...

They do have a gender. "Monogendered" means one gender. Not no gender.

This needs to be stickied.

Honestly.

[Karma93]

Flog61 wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Flog61 wrote...

As a gay male, i can safely say that my brain did not conjure up the image of Diana Allers in studded leather with chains around hands, asking me to whip her

I thought Liara came as a submissive type and somewhat Tali, but Diana... Maybe

I cannot imagine Liara doing BDSM

"I'm going to flay you alive...with my mind."

[wizardryforever]

The Angry One wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Personally I think the whole concept of having no gender is kinda ruined if that species identifies more with a particular gender in other species.  It's mixed messages.

And Aethyta was referring to another asari when talking up Benezia's rack, so that doesn't really count.  We know that the find one another attractive (asari in general, I mean), because if they didn't, their species would have died out a long time ago.  Prior to ME3, most of the asari relationships that we see are with male aliens (or male humans), then they show two asari with female human relationships to balance it out in ME3.  Like I said, it's not just bisexuality, because bisexual people still identify themselves as a gender and often favor one gender as a partner.  The asari don't care at all about their partner's gender, because they themselves don't have a gender.  It's all academic to them.

They do have a gender. "Monogendered" means one gender. Not no gender.

Liara isn't the final authority on this. She may just be making excuses since she's aware some species tend to display bigotry towards Asari sexuality, and hasn't been around many humans at the point she's explaining these things.

Well if that's the case, then it's something other than male or female.  And Liara is the only one who ever says anything on the matter, so while we can speculate on what she may have meant, I'm just going to take what she said at face value.  "Male and female have no real meaning for us."  This implies that they are neither male nor female, not all-female.  Like I said, it's mixed messages, since the codex describes them as all-female.

[FKA_Servo]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well if that's the case, then it's something other than male or female.  And Liara is the only one who ever says anything on the matter, so while we can speculate on what she may have meant, I'm just going to take what she said at face value.  "Male and female have no real meaning for us."  This implies that they are neither male nor female, not all-female.  Like I said, it's mixed messages, since the codex describes them as all-female.

Edit, because I had an itchy trigger finger.

I'm not sure there are any mixed messages. The three life stages that all Asari go through - "maiden, matron, matriarch" - are explicitly feminine, and all asari we meet seem to categorize themselves in this way, and seem to identify as female, wherever their preferences lie otherwise. Liara's comments don't relate to biology at all.

In any event, "monosexed" would have been a much more apt identifier for the asari as a whole.

Modifié par TommyServo, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:14 .

[wizardryforever]

Yeah, that's actually the last line in my post.

[ddraigcoch123]

The Angry One wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Personally I think the whole concept of having no gender is kinda ruined if that species identifies more with a particular gender in other species.  It's mixed messages.

And Aethyta was referring to another asari when talking up Benezia's rack, so that doesn't really count.  We know that the find one another attractive (asari in general, I mean), because if they didn't, their species would have died out a long time ago.  Prior to ME3, most of the asari relationships that we see are with male aliens (or male humans), then they show two asari with female human relationships to balance it out in ME3.  Like I said, it's not just bisexuality, because bisexual people still identify themselves as a gender and often favor one gender as a partner.  The asari don't care at all about their partner's gender, because they themselves don't have a gender.  It's all academic to them.

They do have a gender. "Monogendered" means one gender. Not no gender.

Liara isn't the final authority on this. She may just be making excuses since she's aware some species tend to display bigotry towards Asari sexuality, and hasn't been around many humans at the point she's explaining these things.

if we insist (edit - which i would prefer not to) on trying to cram an alien race/species to fit our own political, social and biological context then for the love of the goddess can we talk about a third gender... as saying mono gender makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...

gender divides the behaviou/expectations/social limitations etc between male and female... now how are you going to 'divide' the full range of Asari behaviour patterns/preferences etc between 'people/Asari' who are not different in any way as a 'caste' 'sex' but only as individuals and in age stages????

Modifié par ddraigcoch123, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:10 .

[andocrack]

I didn't have to bother with Kaidan since I boinked Ash in ME1&3, but it was nice being able to give Steve-O hope without feeling propositioned to be his lover like in DA2. Maybe DA2 wanted to play with those idiotic heart icons in the dialogue wheel, but the romances were a disgrace.

[The Angry One]

ddraigcoch123 wrote...

if we insist on trying to cram an alien race/species to fit our own political, social and biological context then for the love of the goddess can we talk about a third gender... as saying mono gender makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...

gender divides the behaviou/expectations/social limitations etc between male and female... now how are you going to 'divide' the full range of Asari behaviour patterns/preferences etc between 'people/Asari' who are not different in any way as a 'caste' 'sex' but only as individuals and in age stages????

Because it means nothing to themselves, but it is a distinction between other species. Presumably other animal life on Thessia as well. The Asari would have a concept of gender simply by observing others.

[mechalynx]

I opposed them for one reason, and that is this: THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM!!!

An unimported FemShep gets only Kaidan, who might as well be a chick for the amout of *****ing Shep gets from him.

And for all I care, Liara is female. Would it have killed BW to give us at least an equal amount of heterosexual options?

Other than that, I think they were well-written, just not as subtle as I would have wanted.

[TSA_383]

legion999 wrote...

Some people were annoyed that Kaiden became bisexual all of a sudden. And some complained about Cortez not being able to do his job because he was gay (I have no idea why).

Kaiden isn't bi-sexual, he's shepard-sexual.

[Nonoru]

As long as established characters don't change their preference across the games i don't care.
Also the everyone is bisexual is unreal but i don't mind that much to emit a complaint.
DA2 was a failure in that department

[The Uncanny]

Nonoru wrote...

As long as established characters don't change their preference across the games i don't care.

Define 'established'.

[The Angry One]

mechalynx wrote...

An unimported FemShep gets only Kaidan, who might as well be a chick for the amout of *****ing Shep gets from him.

Because men don't complain?

Never mind the fact that Kaidan is one of the least ornery people on the ship. Compared to Ashley, Vega and Javik he's positively zen. I get what you're saying about choice though.

The Uncanny wrote...

Nonoru wrote...

As long as established characters don't change their preference across the games i don't care.

Define 'established'.

"What my headcanon has already dictated"?

Modifié par The Angry One, 31 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

wizardryforever wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Personally I think the whole concept of having no gender is kinda ruined if that species identifies more with a particular gender in other species.  It's mixed messages.

And Aethyta was referring to another asari when talking up Benezia's rack, so that doesn't really count.  We know that the find one another attractive (asari in general, I mean), because if they didn't, their species would have died out a long time ago.  Prior to ME3, most of the asari relationships that we see are with male aliens (or male humans), then they show two asari with female human relationships to balance it out in ME3.  Like I said, it's not just bisexuality, because bisexual people still identify themselves as a gender and often favor one gender as a partner.  The asari don't care at all about their partner's gender, because they themselves don't have a gender.  It's all academic to them.

They do have a gender. "Monogendered" means one gender. Not no gender.

Liara isn't the final authority on this. She may just be making excuses since she's aware some species tend to display bigotry towards Asari sexuality, and hasn't been around many humans at the point she's explaining these things.

Well if that's the case, then it's something other than male or female.  And Liara is the only one who ever says anything on the matter, so while we can speculate on what she may have meant, I'm just going to take what she said at face value.  "Male and female have no real meaning for us."  This implies that they are neither male nor female, not all-female.  Like I said, it's mixed messages, since the codex describes them as all-female.

You're taking what Liara said a bit out of context. Male or female have no meaning for them when it comes to reproduction, because Asari can bond with either to conceive a child. So for them, there is literally no difference at all whether they are with a male or a female partner. Asari are still female. They make the babies and give birth to them, like any other female entity, they just don't need genetic material to do it...hence Liara's comment.

So it's still technically a traditional relationship for Maleshep (as traditional as bunking with an alien goes), a  lesbian relationship for Femshep and a bisexual relationship for Liara (cuz she's interested in either MaleShep or Femshep; doesn't matter the gender).

[The Uncanny]

The Angry One wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

Define 'established'.

"What my headcanon has already dictated"?

We have a winner! 

[Ageless Face]

TSA_383 wrote...
Kaiden isn't bi-sexual, he's shepard-sexual.

What? 

[RavenEyry]

Wow a lot of attempts to fit our gender constructs onto the asari here!
The way I see it, femshep and Liara is a lesbian relationship from a human persective and not from an asari perspective.

And on the topic of DA2, I thought all the LI's were believably written bisexuals, I just thought it was odd that they were all bisexual, even though it fit the characters. (Ignoring Sebastian here because he doesn't even enter Hawke's nest)