371 réponses à ce sujet

[MadCat221]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Well...the Quarian could have stolen it....

Are you serious?

You falsely accuse the quarians of stealing from the Alliance.  And all you have to say now is that they could have stolen it?

*shoves Finn*

Modifié par MadCat221, 02 août 2012 - 06:52 .

[DPSSOC]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Yes, which is why I asked him how they did

https://twitter.com/...836210518593536


https://twitter.com/...835430885564417

Key word used in both posts is possible.  It's possible the Quarians came up with it on their own, it's possible the Turians shared the tech, and it's possible Tali stole the tech.  We can quite easily write off the first possibility because as Tali points out the Quarians don't have the resources for basic ship repair they're definitely not going to have the disposable resources for practical R&D of a stealth system.

First you have to build and test a prototype heat-sink, then when you finally have one that works you have to make enough to accomodate a ship.  You then need to build a second hull for that ship and test that.  Now why this would be a problem for the Quarians is because every failure means a complete wipe of the resources put into it.  A heat sink fails when it can't hold the necessary capacity and fries, components are worthless, and if the second hull doesn't work properly all the material that went into that is worthless (because it doesn't work).  Again considering Tali points out they can't manufacture basic parts I think this is out of their league, they'd need a working model to build off of, something they knew would work practically as well as conceptually.

So it's either the Turians gave the Quarians the data or Tali took it.  Now for this I have a simple question; why would the Turians, the dominant military power in Citadel Space, hand over what is remarked by many to be a considerable military advantage to the Quarians?  What could they possibly gain by giving the Quarians the ability to slip past the bulk of their (or anyone's) orbital defenses?

Also you quote Tali's writer so I have to ask, did he also write that codex entry?  Was he the one who wrote in the Quarians having stealth tech?  Because if not then just because he didn't write that Tali took it doesn't mean she didn't if you catch my meaning.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 03 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[D24O]

DPSSOC wrote...

Also you quote Tali's writer so I have to ask, did he also write that codex entry?  Was he the one who wrote in the Quarians having stealth tech?  Because if not then just because he didn't write that Tali took it doesn't mean she didn't if you catch my meaning.

Okay, I've said this a few times, BUT ITS 2 F***ING LINES. 2 LINES FOR GODS SAKE.  Theres no good reason to read into it so much, especially with a writer TELLING us that its actually nothing.

[justafan]

DPSSOC wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Yes, which is why I asked him how they did

https://twitter.com/...836210518593536


https://twitter.com/...835430885564417

Key word used in both posts is possible.  It's possible the Quarians came up with it on their own, it's possible the Turians shared the tech, and it's possible Tali stole the tech.  We can quite easily right off the first possibility because as Tali points out the Quarians don't have the resources for basic ship repair they're definitely not going to have the disposable resources for practical R&D of a stealth system.

First you have to build and test a prototype heat-sink, then when you finally have one that works you have to make enough to accomodate a ship.  You then need to build a second hull for that ship and test that.  Now why this would be a problem for the Quarians is because every failure means a complete wipe of the resources put into it.  A heat sink fails when it can't hold the necessary capacity and fries, components are worthless, and if the second hull doesn't work properly all the material that went into that is worthless (because it doesn't work).  Again considering Tali points out they can't manufacture basic parts I think this is out of their league, they'd need a working model to build off of, something they knew would work practically as well as conceptually.

So it's either the Turians gave the Quarians the data or Tali took it.  Now for this I have a simple question; why would the Turians, the dominant military power in Citadel Space, hand over what is remarked by many to be a considerable military advantage to the Quarians?  What could they possibly gain by giving the Quarians the ability to slip past the bulk of their (or anyone's) orbital defenses?

Also you quote Tali's writer so I have to ask, did he also write that codex entry?  Was he the one who wrote in the Quarians having stealth tech?  Because if not then just because he didn't write that Tali took it doesn't mean she didn't if you catch my meaning.

To quote the TV tropes article on "Word Of God"  "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word Of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer.  Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

In this sense we can see Weekes as the ultimate authority on the character of Tali. Thus, his word is God, and Tali did not steal from the Normandy.  You are free to reject the notion of "word of God" but his authority on the matter would logically supersede theory on this very ambiguous issue.

Modifié par justafan, 03 août 2012 - 01:47 .

[DPSSOC]

D24O wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Also you quote Tali's writer so I have to ask, did he also write that codex entry?  Was he the one who wrote in the Quarians having stealth tech?  Because if not then just because he didn't write that Tali took it doesn't mean she didn't if you catch my meaning.

Okay, I've said this a few times, BUT ITS 2 F***ING LINES. 2 LINES FOR GODS SAKE.  Theres no good reason to read into it so much, especially with a writer TELLING us that its actually nothing.

There's every reason to read into it.  We're told, explicitly, in game how the Salarians got their stealth tech but not the Quarians.  The writers could have put in that the Quarians developed it on their own or got it from the Turians but they didn't.  It'd be like having a character in a crime novel murder a witness with no explanation why, what conclusions are you going to draw?  You're probably going to think he's in on the crime and be suspiscious of that character, if the author has to explain, after the fact, that the two characters had a lot of bad blood between one another and it was a bad decision made in the heat of the moment, and not an attempt to conceal evidence, then they've failed.  Also nothing in those two posts (all I've read I'm not on twitter) said Tali didn't take it, just that it's possible she didn't.

If the writers didn't want us to suspect Tali they should have shown, in game, how the Quarians got the tech, just like they did with the Salarians.  As it stands we've been given two possibilities after the fact that are both highly unlikely and far more complicated and contrived than Tali just taking the data after she left the SR-1.  Again when faced with the Quarians developing it themselves, the Turians handing it to them, or Tali taking it the simplest answer is that Tali took the schematics.  It requires the least amount of work (on the part of the characters) and the least amount of assumptions (on the part of the player requiring only one).

[D24O]

DPSSOC wrote...

There's every reason to read into it.  We're told, explicitly, in game how the Salarians got their stealth tech but not the Quarians.  The writers could have put in that the Quarians developed it on their own or got it from the Turians but they didn't.  It'd be like having a character in a crime novel murder a witness with no explanation why, what conclusions are you going to draw?  You're probably going to think he's in on the crime and be suspiscious of that character, if the author has to explain, after the fact, that the two characters had a lot of bad blood between one another and it was a bad decision made in the heat of the moment, and not an attempt to conceal evidence, then they've failed.  Also nothing in those two posts (all I've read I'm not on twitter) said Tali didn't take it, just that it's possible she didn't.

If the writers didn't want us to suspect Tali they should have shown, in game, how the Quarians got the tech, just like they did with the Salarians.  As it stands we've been given two possibilities after the fact that are both highly unlikely and far more complicated and contrived than Tali just taking the data after she left the SR-1.  Again when faced with the Quarians developing it themselves, the Turians handing it to them, or Tali taking it the simplest answer is that Tali took the schematics.  It requires the least amount of work (on the part of the characters) and the least amount of assumptions (on the part of the player requiring only one).

They didn't even develop the Crucible, the crux of the plot device, this is just another plot hole. Plus it doesn't fit the established character at all, and that's one thing BW knows how to do, write characters. So I don't see much reason to care about 2 lines. 

Oh, and you keep ignoring that a writer says its not true. He does have a certain amount of legitimacy.

Modifié par D24O, 03 août 2012 - 02:00 .

[DPSSOC]

justafan wrote...
To quote the TV tropes article on "Word Of God"  "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word Of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer.  Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

In this sense we can see Weekes as the ultimate authority on the character of Tali. Thus, his word is God, and Tali did not steal from the Normandy.  You are free to reject the notion of "word of God" but his authority on the matter would logically supersede theory on this very ambiguous issue.

Where does he say Tali didn't take it?  Where is it stated in no uncertain terms?  I've been offered two links all of which suggest possible alternatives.  Also I do reject word of god because I also reject the validity of authourial intent.  What the authour wanted to say of how they wanted their work to be viewed doesn`t matter; what matters is whether or not they were actually able to get that across in-game/book/movie/etc.  If Weekes' intent was for Tali not to be implicated in the Quarian acquisition of stealth tech he failed, because there's nothing in the game to suggest she wasn't part of it, and nothing to suggest an alternative (in-game).

[DarkArcane633]

 Why does it matter.

Wouldn't you want to share something powerful with your future allies?

[DPSSOC]

D24O wrote...
They didn't even develop the Crucible, the crux of the plot device, this is just another plot hole. Plus it doesn't fit the established character at all, and that's one thing BW knows how to do, write characters. So I don't see much reason to care about 2 lines.

You mean the character from a culture of scavengers, who's two notable activities before joining our crew are scavenging tech.  Right her taking advanced tech to help her people when presented the opportunity is completely out of character. 

D24O wrote...
Oh, and you keep ignoring that a writer says its not true. He does have a certain amount of legitimacy.

I've yet to be shown this, do you have a link?  Also see my previous point about authourial intent.

[D24O]

DPSSOC wrote...

Where does he say Tali didn't take it?  Where is it stated in no uncertain terms? 

He told me over twitter.

https://twitter.com/...829881854922752 

[justafan]

DPSSOC wrote...

justafan wrote...
To quote the TV tropes article on "Word Of God"  "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word Of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer.  Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

In this sense we can see Weekes as the ultimate authority on the character of Tali. Thus, his word is God, and Tali did not steal from the Normandy.  You are free to reject the notion of "word of God" but his authority on the matter would logically supersede theory on this very ambiguous issue.

Where does he say Tali didn't take it?  Where is it stated in no uncertain terms?  I've been offered two links all of which suggest possible alternatives.  Also I do reject word of god because I also reject the validity of authourial intent.  What the authour wanted to say of how they wanted their work to be viewed doesn`t matter; what matters is whether or not they were actually able to get that across in-game/book/movie/etc.  If Weekes' intent was for Tali not to be implicated in the Quarian acquisition of stealth tech he failed, because there's nothing in the game to suggest she wasn't part of it, and nothing to suggest an alternative (in-game).

Sorry, you're last paragraph I thought implied you had read it.

https://twitter.com/...829881854922752

The OP's question is asked, and Weekes' answer is "nope".

Modifié par justafan, 03 août 2012 - 02:13 .

[DPSSOC]

DarkArcane633 wrote...

 Why does it matter.

Wouldn't you want to share something powerful with your future allies?

Sure I would, and had Tali asked for the tech I probably would have said sure.  However that's not what happened.  Tali took advantage of my trust and stabbed me in the back, that tends to tick me off.  It ticked me off when Udina did it, it ticked me off when Zaeed did it, and it ticks me off when Tali did it.

[D24O]

DPSSOC wrote...

Sure I would, and had Tali asked for the tech I probably would have said sure.  However that's not what happened.  Tali took advantage of my trust and stabbed me in the back, that tends to tick me off.  It ticked me off when Udina did it, it ticked me off when Zaeed did it, and it ticks me off when Tali did it.

You are basing this idea, something that has been both denied by a senior writer, as well as going against an established character of 3 games, off of 2 pretty much throwaway lines about a ship we never see.

[Arondell]

D24O wrote...

You are basing this idea, something that has been both denied by a senior writer, as well as going against an established character of 3 games, off of 2 pretty much throwaway lines about a ship we never see.

He has become emotionally invested in the idea now.  No way your going to change his mind at this point no matter how circumstancial and/or flimsy the evidence is.

[DPSSOC]

D24O wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Sure I would, and had Tali asked for the tech I probably would have said sure.  However that's not what happened.  Tali took advantage of my trust and stabbed me in the back, that tends to tick me off.  It ticked me off when Udina did it, it ticked me off when Zaeed did it, and it ticks me off when Tali did it.

You are basing this idea, something that has been both denied by a senior writer, as well as going against an established character of 3 games, off of 2 pretty much throwaway lines about a ship we never see.

Sorry started that post before you posted the link, not the most reassuring statement given how lean ME3 was on proper dialogue but I'll take it.  However Tali stealing the tech from the Normandy wouldn't have been out of character, as I sated before.  We meet her in ME1 where her main contribution is tech she scavenged, we pick her up in ME2 where she's scavenging tech, she comes from a race of scavengers it is not out of character for her to take advantage of being able to grab advanced tech that would help her people.

But like I said I'll accept Weekes' word that Tali didn't take it.  Now the question remains who did the Quarians steal it from (j/k)

[D24O]

For what we got from the game, there's a few possibilities. Parallel development, co-ordination with Turians, espionage against the Turians or the Alliance, scanning the Normandy. They could've even gotten it from the Blue suns after they took over the junkyard planet from Grunts recruitment (that's how they got Thanix weaponry.)

[DPSSOC]

D24O wrote...

For what we got from the game, there's a few possibilities. Parallel development, co-ordination with Turians, espionage against the Turians or the Alliance, scanning the Normandy. They could've even gotten it from the Blue suns after they took over the junkyard planet from Grunts recruitment (that's how they got Thanix weaponry.)

Is it ever explained what Thanix weaponry, which was brand new 6 months prior to ME3 was doing on a junkyard planet?  I still don't buy parallel development because it goes against what was established about Quarian production capabilities in ME1.

[D24O]

DPSSOC wrote...

Is it ever explained what Thanix weaponry, which was brand new 6 months prior to ME3 was doing on a junkyard planet?  I still don't buy parallel development because it goes against what was established about Quarian production capabilities in ME1.

I don't know, posters have detailed how they would make heat sinks, and they did end up having access to a lot of facilities on the Blue sun base, so I think its more plausable by 3. Plus they establish the quarians as very good engineers, and Xen is real smart, so I think its pretty plausible. I don't remember exactly, but I assume the Suns stole it, maybe took it off a disabled vessle they found. 

[justafan]

DPSSOC wrote...

D24O wrote...

For what we got from the game, there's a few possibilities. Parallel development, co-ordination with Turians, espionage against the Turians or the Alliance, scanning the Normandy. They could've even gotten it from the Blue suns after they took over the junkyard planet from Grunts recruitment (that's how they got Thanix weaponry.)

Is it ever explained what Thanix weaponry, which was brand new 6 months prior to ME3 was doing on a junkyard planet?  I still don't buy parallel development because it goes against what was established about Quarian production capabilities in ME1.

Meh, an ex-C-Sec officer was able to get his hands on a Thanix easily enough, is Thanix tech even classified given how everyone and their grandmother has it by ME3?  And a cannon is a lot easier to manufacture than a ship, especially given the Quarians are known for their resourcefulness and tech expertise.

Modifié par justafan, 03 août 2012 - 03:01 .

[JesseLee202]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...
Your You're trying to act like a Geth? Seriously? Cause Because nobody else has ever done that before. <_< 

 I am I'm not trying to argue that opinions must be logical. I was only showing TS2Aggie how flawed her view is. Judging a race as a whole because thier their leaders made a choice is indeed flawed, emotion has nothing to do with it. 
 

Seeing as your initial sentence was;- "I'm gonna guess you hate the Quarians based on the leaders choices made in the MEverse." I would say it has everything to do with emotion.

You're not trying to argue opinions must be logical, but somehow manage to find a way to imply an opinion is incorrect because it isn't logical.


Smooth.

Looks like I hit a nerve with the Geth wannabe 

She is the one that stated she "hated" the Quarians; I simply guessed why, it was an accurate guess. 

I think you need to learn the definition of flawed. Emotion has nothing to do with that paragraph you quoted.

Maybe you should pay more attention to the first point I made, instead of my spelling. 

[DirtySHISN0]

JesseLee202 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...
Seeing as your initial sentence was;- "I'm gonna guess you hate the Quarians based on the leaders choices made in the MEverse." I would say it has everything to do with emotion.

You're not trying to argue opinions must be logical, but somehow manage to find a way to imply an opinion is incorrect because it isn't logical.


Smooth.

*Looks like I hit a nerve with the Geth wannabe 

She is the one that stated she "hated" the Quarians, I simply guessed why - it was an accurate guess. 

I think you need to learn the definition of flawed. Emotion has nothing to do with that paragraph you quoted.

*Maybe you should pay more attention to the first point I made, instead of my spelling. 

*We thought you would have appreciated a petty response.

Hate is an emotion, you stated the reasons for that emotion being evoked were flawed. Emotion doesn't have to be logical, that is why it cannot be flawed or faulty. It can be unreasonable or irrational, but not flawed.
Just because you tell someone that their opinion (view, sentiment, feeling, belief) is unreasonable doesn't mean they aren't entitled to it.

We believe the orginal lines were "Why you no like quarians? Why you no hate asari instead?" (there are plenty of asari hate threads with reasons just as unreasonable as this one).
"You don't have to look far to hate the quarians" to which you replied "Yes, you do..etc"  - so people cannot hate (feeling, opinion and emotion) something because it's unreasonable? We think you'll find that they can.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 03 août 2012 - 04:13 .

[nrcrane]

I don't remember for sure, I kind of remember either in ME1 or 2 Shepard gave Tali permission to study the ship. I think it was ME2...., but then again I might just be completely wrong on this.

[MadCat221]

DPSSOC wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Yes, which is why I asked him how they did

https://twitter.com/...836210518593536


https://twitter.com/...835430885564417

Key word used in both posts is possible.  It's possible the Quarians came up with it on their own, it's possible the Turians shared the tech, and it's possible Tali stole the tech.  We can quite easily write off the first possibility because as Tali points out the Quarians don't have the resources for basic ship repair they're definitely not going to have the disposable resources for practical R&D of a stealth system.

Where does Tali point out that they can't do basic ship repair?  Their fleet would fall apart if they couldn't.  They obviously can't do an overhaul in a spacedock, but to say they can't make even basic ship repairs is patently false.  And contrary to that point, they up-armed every ship, even arming their LiveShips with dreadnought-class weaponry.  Without dock time.

And again contrary, Admiral Xen's whole purview is R&D.  That's right, their R&D is so expansive that they have a seat on the Admiralty board.  Tali's father also did R&D... remember that whole mess you covered up in ME2 (or didn't if you have a heart blacker than a black hole)?  Remember Xen developing the "Sensor overload" that allowed them to steamroll the Geth before the Reapers assumed direct control?  Remember that arc pistol?  Remember the Reegar carbine?

[lmxar]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Well...the Quarian could have stolen it....

I c wut u did their.