129 réponses à ce sujet

[Timortis]

Why would anyone think a power-crazed **** that'll do anything to get the throne is good for Ferelden, or any country for that matter?

[robertthebard]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Vicious wrote...

It's pretty weird that Alistair will happily kill a defeated enemy who has yielded honorably right in front of his only daughter with her father's blood staining her face, but he gets mad if I do anything remotely similar, Conner,Isolde,random people.

Anyway I can't keep Alistair anymore in my playthroughs, guy is really hypocritical to the point of I roll my eyes whenever he opens his mouth.

I'm not sure I agree.  Loghain is responsible for the death of Alistair's "father figure" Duncan as well as all of Alistair's Grey Warden buddies, his first and only friends prior to you.  He also nearly kills Alistair's other father figure, Arl Eamon (or does kill him, depending how you resolve that).  This would be akin to Alistair telling a human noble to spare Arl Howe after you've seen your nephew's cold raped corpse on the floor.

And that's just the personal side...

Big picture, Loghain's desertion/betrayal at the beginning of the game is what caused ALL of the chaos and months of hardship.  Hundreds if not thousands of families have lost loved ones because the Blight was able to spread out of Korcari.  It's only because the vast majority of the nobles don't really know what happened at Ostagar that they don't rush him and tear him apart themselves.

So if not for Lohgain, the darkspawn wouldn't have risen to cause the Blight?  I guess there's a bigger picture outside your big picture.  No doubt Loghain caused some grief, but he didn't start the whole ball rolling, he just played into it to his advantage.  I think he's a right bastard, but dead people don't learn anything.  They're just dead.  So while you can throw around how you killed him to teach him a lesson, all you did was prove that in the end, you're no better than he was.  You killed him to satisfy either your own, or Alistair's lust for revenge, not to teach him a lesson.

Teaching him a lesson runs like this:  Spare him with a hardened Alistair set up to be King.  Anora is optional in this situation.  Have Loghain do the ritual with Morrigan.  Leave him in charge of rebuilding the order he destroyed, with a 30 year death sentence over his head.  This teaches him a lesson.  Killing him, either in the Landsmeet, or at the Archdemon is a cop out to petty revenge.

[Recidiva]

Koralis wrote...

Evil?   Justice isn't evil.. it often isn't nice though. 

Loghain was worse than merely being a traitor.  He committed Regicide by his planned withdrawal of troops.   The highest of capital offenses, he deserved torture in the dungeons of the castle for years, not a quick death.

Yes.  But it's a trap.  Just like most of the rest of the game.  Kill Loghain and you or Alistair die.  Save Loghain and you lose Alistair.  Take Morrigan's deal and everyone's screwed...just...not yet.

In the end I save Loghain, lose Alistair, gain Ferelden.  But Ferelden doesn't have a nice voice or funny dialogue.  My loss.

[robertthebard]

Timortis wrote...

Why would anyone think a power-crazed **** that'll do anything to get the throne is good for Ferelden, or any country for that matter?

This applies equally to Alistair, Anora, or Loghain, so to which one are you referring?

Loghain and Anora are obvious from what you know of them.  Alistair will attempt to sieze the crown at the Landsmeet simply to kill Loghain.  All the while complaining that he didn't want to be King, or to lead people, so the only reason he does it is to satisfy his revenge.  So, to whom are you referring here?

[Recidiva]

Timortis wrote...

Why would anyone think a power-crazed **** that'll do anything to get the throne is good for Ferelden, or any country for that matter?

HE is not.  Keeping him under armed guard until you can feed him to a dragon IS good for Ferelden.  My epilogues say so.  It's pretty much dictated by game endings.  Same way that putting Bhelen in power is good for the dwarves.  It's counterintuitive and it's manipulative, but it's the way the plot goes.

I can't just white out everything on my screen and scribble in "And everyone lived happily ever after..."

[Alastrian]

robertthebard wrote...

Teaching him a lesson runs like this:  Spare him with a hardened Alistair set up to be King.  Anora is optional in this situation.  Have Loghain do the ritual with Morrigan.  Leave him in charge of rebuilding the order he destroyed, with a 30 year death sentence over his head.  This teaches him a lesson.  Killing him, either in the Landsmeet, or at the Archdemon is a cop out to petty revenge.

Allowing him to live to be a Grey Warden recruiter is probably the most convincing argument for sparing him, definitely. Alistair (eventually) ends happily as a great king with Anora's expertise working behind the scenes, the Grey Wardens get one of the most valuable individuals who could possibly be recruiting for them

One thing's for sure if the man with such a pathological hatred of everything Orlesian is recruiting for Fereldan's Grey Wardens... there'd be nothing left to fear for those who for some reason still feared that the Grey Wardens are Orlesian spies.

Anyway, next playthrough I'll be trying for this ending for the first time. I couldn't really see my male human noble sparing Arl Howe's closest ally (who might have even put him up to turning Highever Castle into a slaughterhouse), my female human noble plans on becoming queen, and my city elf would be howling for Loghain's blood after seeing his collusion with Tevinter slavers in the Alienage. Those are family and friends of hers in those cages. Were I to play a Dalish elf they would likely be just as outraged seeing fellow elves being carted off like livestock just to fill Loghain's war chest. I know you'd interpret that as a 'cop out to petty revenge'... but I don't see how you can judge the 'petty' lust for revenge against someone who wronged them personally.

So... I'll have to play a character who's beef with Loghain isn't quite so personal. Where's the Human Commoner origin when you need it? He could be someone who rises in station just like Loghain did back in the day. Guess a bored, decadent dwarven princess will have to do

[Vicious]

Loghain is redeemable. No matter how much players or Alistair cry about the evil things he's done, he can make restitution if you let him live. Yet so many 'heroic' playthroughs involve killing him. ROFL i love it.

[Koralis]

Recidiva wrote...

Koralis wrote...

Evil?   Justice isn't evil.. it often isn't nice though. 

Loghain was worse than merely being a traitor.  He committed Regicide by his planned withdrawal of troops.   The highest of capital offenses, he deserved torture in the dungeons of the castle for years, not a quick death.

Yes.  But it's a trap.  Just like most of the rest of the game.  Kill Loghain and you or Alistair die.  Save Loghain and you lose Alistair.  Take Morrigan's deal and everyone's screwed...just...not yet.

But none of those eventualities are even concievable at the point you must decide Loghain's fate.  You have not yet been informed of the "Archdemon's Revenge."   Sparing him may ultimately turn out for the best, but that's not the point, really. 

Anyone COULD have a redeemable future.  The scoundrel also could have ended up poisoning Allistair and yourself in revenge.  The future is unknowable (until you've played the game a couple of times!

Modifié par Koralis, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:18 .

[Adria Teksuni]

Vicious wrote...

It's pretty weird that Alistair will happily kill a defeated enemy who has yielded honorably right in front of his only daughter with her father's blood staining her face, but he gets mad if I do anything remotely similar, Conner,Isolde,random people.

Connor, Isolde, and random people did not abandon the field at Ostagar, condemn an entire warrior class by denouncing them as traitors, have psychopaths as their seconds in command, condone killing and taking over teyrns, did not engage in slavery to line their coffers, plunge the country into civil war, or assassinate arls.

Just sayin'.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Vicious]

By that point in the game the only reason to keep Alistair around is so you don't have to shut off the speakers when Anora gives her pre-battle speech. All his funny dialogue is gone replaced with whining [unhardened] or unhumorous observations [hardened].

Loghain meanwhile has plenty of conversation topics to give you insight on himself, Anora, Maric, and even Alistair. and if you get his approval by you get the line, "If you can finish this, I'll follow you to the end, Warden. I swear it." which is more than you ever get from Alistair interestingly.

Granted it's completely metagame but it's food for thought at least.

Connor, Isolde, and random people did not abandon the field at Ostagar, condemn an entire warrior class by denouncing them as traitors, have psychopaths as their seconds in command, condone killing and taking over teyrns, did not engage in slavery to line their coffers, plunge the country into civil war, or assassinate arls.

So the only punishment is death? A very petty attitude LOL and one that is from someone who has obviously not tried to look at things from Loghain's shoes and thus your remarks will not even be considered. I played the same game you did, I know all the vile things Loghain and his cronies did. You can't justify any of it because you're obviously the protagonist but that's the point: You want him to suffer and DEATH is a POOR PUNISHMENT when there is POETIC JUSTICE to be had in sparing him.

As opposed to killing him while he's on his knees with his only daughter who loves him looking on.

Just sayin.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Timortis wrote...

Why would anyone think a power-crazed **** that'll do anything to get the throne is good for Ferelden, or any country for that matter?

This applies equally to Alistair, Anora, or Loghain, so to which one are you referring?

Loghain and Anora are obvious from what you know of them.  Alistair will attempt to sieze the crown at the Landsmeet simply to kill Loghain.  All the while complaining that he didn't want to be King, or to lead people, so the only reason he does it is to satisfy his revenge.  So, to whom are you referring here?

The fact that Alistair hid his heritage from you is proof that he is not power-crazed. A power-crazed individual would take every opportunity to take the throne, by force or persuasion.

Alistair seized the throne only because it was the only way to seek justice, which should be his by default. It may sounds selfish, but only to insensitive people. If you play the human noble, Arl Howe killed your parents. Are you selfish for wanting to avenge them by killing Howe? No, it's called justice. Alistair was merely avenging Duncan, the only father figure in his life. Arl Eamon could have been one, but sent Alistair away at the age of 10.

Edit: Saying that Alistair is power-hungry for wanting to seek justice is like ...... I don't even know what to compare it to. It's a very simple thing to understand, yet I don't understand why you let your anti-Alistair feelings cloud your judgement.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:24 .

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Timortis wrote...

Why would anyone think a power-crazed **** that'll do anything to get the throne is good for Ferelden, or any country for that matter?

This applies equally to Alistair, Anora, or Loghain, so to which one are you referring?

Loghain and Anora are obvious from what you know of them.  Alistair will attempt to sieze the crown at the Landsmeet simply to kill Loghain.  All the while complaining that he didn't want to be King, or to lead people, so the only reason he does it is to satisfy his revenge.  So, to whom are you referring here?

The fact that Alistair hid his heritage from you is proof that he is not power-crazed. A power-crazed individual would take every opportunity to take the throne, by force or persuasion.

Alistair seized the throne only because it was the only way to seek justice, which should be his by default. It may sounds selfish, but only to insensitive people. If you play the human noble, Arl Howe killed your parents. Are you selfish for wanting to avenge them by killing Howe? No, it's called justice. Alistair was merely avenging Duncan, the only father figure in his life. Arl Eamon could have been one, but sent Alistair away at the age of 10.

Justice was to be meted out by the victor of the duel, according to Ferelden Traditions.  Justice has been served, Alistair attempts to sieze the crown for vengence.  There is no other motive.  In support of this, if Alistair duels Loghain, he kills him.  The duel is supposed to be until one or the other yields.

Modifié par robertthebard, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:25 .

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...
The fact that Alistair hid his heritage from you is proof that he is not power-crazed. A power-crazed individual would take every opportunity to take the throne, by force or persuasion.

Alistair seized the throne only because it was the only way to seek justice, which should be his by default. It may sounds selfish, but only to insensitive people. If you play the human noble, Arl Howe killed your parents. Are you selfish for wanting to avenge them by killing Howe? No, it's called justice. Alistair was merely avenging Duncan, the only father figure in his life. Arl Eamon could have been one, but sent Alistair away at the age of 10.

Justice was to be meted out by the victor of the duel, according to
Ferelden Traditions.  Justice has been served, Alistair attempts to
sieze the crown for vengence.  There is no other motive.  In support of
this, if Alistair duels Loghain, he kills him.  The duel is supposed to
be until one or the other yields.

Yes, there is no other motive. Thank you for agreeing that Alistair is not power hungry. Power hungry people have a lot of motive for wanting to seize the throne. Alistair just wanted justice.

Edit: Alistair also had the right to take the throne for justice if he chooses. It is within the law and tradition. Why now is he power-hungry for wanting to explore that option? Now we've lost track of what power-hungry means. Basically you're almost saying that because you don't approve of Alistair, therefore he's power hungry.

Saying that you want justice to right a wrong is like saying the Dalish people are power-hungry for killing Vaughan. According to tradition, Vaughan had the "noble's right" to sleep with the bride. That means the Dalish people are wrong to seek justice, and are therefore power-hungry.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Adria Teksuni]

Heavens forfend he want to see what's best for Ferelden, and some might think a murderous sociopath or a murderous sociopath's daughter could be rather bad.

I'm just saying I can see both sides. My first game, I found the arguments to spare Loghain quite compelling as I thought it would be what was best for Ferelden, and lost Alistair (which I'm still bitter over).

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[Recidiva]

Koralis wrote...

But none of those eventualities are even concievable at the point you must decide Loghain's fate.  You have not yet been informed of the "Archdemon's Revenge."   Sparing him may ultimately turn out for the best, but that's not the point, really. 

Right, so I do things Alistair's way for four playthroughs.  Then I do things differently.  And there's Alistair, standing firmly in my path arguing about everything that I know to be ultimately true.  He knows it's his game, I can't even leave him at camp, he's got his own cutscenes to give me ****.  I can't ignore him, can't walk around him, and can't NOT do it his way without hearing about it for the whole game.

It does kind of become the point in a game intended to be replayed.  And Alistair's responses are so varied and illogical and can't be strung together in ways that even make sense with the way you choose to play the game sometimes.

If you do everything his way, he's awesome and supportive.  Cross him once on even something that's ultimately the "right" thing to do, and he will slap you for it.

Makes me want to slap back, truth be told.  I adore the character.  But he's flat out wrong about the way things turn out and the way Duncan or the Grey Wardens were or are, and woefully ignorant of anything I might want as a player.  He's also impossible to convince of what it takes to "win the game" in any genuinely positive "good" way.  He becomes an obstacle.

They wrote him in completely inconsistent ways.  It's possible ask him at Landsmeet what he wants, if he's unhardened and Anora betrayed you at Landsmeet, he will say "Make her queen!" and then in THE NEXT SENTENCE "No!  Don't make her queen!  She betrayed us!"  Then he'll hate you for making him king either way.

If you're in love and on the rooftop, it's possible for him to say...in the same dialogue option, mind - "I know I'd be a bad king" (but he wouldn't.)  Anora deserves to be queen (she doesn't) and all manner of completely contradictory stuff if you follow the whole dialogue tree.

He only has principles when it suits the plot, then they're immutable.  Otherwise if you try to ASK him about what he wants, he will waffle so badly I need syrup.

As a character, he is awesomeness incarnate.  

As something the PC needs to interact with, he's an immutable game of "Groundhog Day" where everything's the same no matter what you do.   For example...playing an evil game where I kill Connor.  I do the leg work.  Before I go to Redcliffe, I wipe out the Circle.  Now Alistair says he won't help me kill Wynne, then he does it anyway.  Then I go collect the ashes.  I discredit Jowan as a source of information.  Now I KNOW...that the game should therefore realize that there is...no other way to save Connor at this point in the game.  I can't do the ritual, I don't trust Jowan.  Even Alistair hates blood mages and shouldn't trust Jowan.  Right?   BUT...Alistair just KNOWS there's something else we could have done.  How does he know that?  Even HE said he didn't recommend killing children, but Connor is an abomination.

Alistair's one of the worst offenders of metagaming.  He omnipotently "knows" things that are patently wrong in game context, and there's no way around it.

There's no way to predict when he will or will not agree with you and whether it will or will not make sense in context to MY game.

[Vicious]

IMHO Loghain seriously does a 180 from evil psycho to noble warrior TOO FAST. All you have to do is recruit the guy and throw him some maps and he is pretty reasonable and regrets damn near everything he did EXCEPT kill Cailan. It seems he REALLY feels he was justified in letting Cailan die 'of his own foolishness.'

That said, well it's Bioware's game and he DOES do a 180 and according to the game, it's genuine. So whatever. Loghain can actually be a good guy. Thus killing him is a sad waste of a cool character.

imho of course!

And alistair's dialogue is heavily bugged/unfinished so he'll call himself King even if I picked Anora, if he's still around post landsmeet. Rather than get punched in the face with immersion breaking dialogue, I may as well drop him for Loghain.

He only has principles when it suits the plot, then they're immutable.  Otherwise if you try to ASK him about what he wants, he will waffle so badly I need syrup.

ROFL

Modifié par Vicious, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:36 .

[robertthebard]

It is not justice to go against what a court has decided. By your definition, if I get up in a court room and kill a defendant because the court just gave him 30 years in prison instead of the death penalty, it should be all good, because I just wanted "justice" for that guy killing my wife, or whatever. What do you suppose is really going to happen when I satisfy my need for revenge?



Alistair cries, literally from the time you find out who he is that he doesn't want to be king. Now, because Loghain is to live, he decides he wants to be King, just so he can make sure that his idea of justice is met? That's revenge, and nothing else. Take off the blinders mate, he's not doing this for anything like Justice, he is, just as Loghain did prior to the duel, thumbing his nose at the Landsmeet, telling them that they have no right to decree anything but what he wants to hear. If Loghain doing this is bad, then anyone else doing it is too.

[B33ker]

I couldn't get through the dialogue quick enough to kill Loghain when I got to that part. By then I had worked up a good "mad" and wanted revenge in the worst way. It was rather satisfying seeing that cocky Anora weeping for the headless corpse that was her father.



Second time through I let him live and told Alistair to take a hike.



Third and Fourth times through I killed Loghain just because it was so much fun the first time.

[Vicious]

I can't do the ritual, I don't trust Jowan. Even Alistair hates blood mages and shouldn't trust Jowan. Right? BUT...Alistair just KNOWS there's something else we could have done. How does he know that? Even HE said he didn't recommend killing children, but Connor is an abomination.



Alistair's one of the worst offenders of metagaming. He omnipotently "knows" things that are patently wrong in game context, and there's no way around it.

THANK YOU

[Taritu]

Folks are confused. Killing Loghain is justice. The man is guilty of mass murder and selling people into slavery. It may also be vengeance, but it is justice, because Loghain is guilty of bad enough crimes to warrant capital punishment. He's also a traitor.

Not saying I might not let him live, but killing him isn't unjust, and Alistair is not crazed to want him to be killed, because it is just and there are a lot worse reasons to want to be king than because you see that if you aren't king, high placed people will not be punished for their crimes just because their relatives don't think mass murder is enough reason to be punished.  A common pickpocket in Fereldent gets the death penalty, but a mass murderer is to be let off?

Modifié par Taritu, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[Squiggles1334]

Recidiva wrote...

Koralis wrote...

But none of those eventualities are even concievable at the point you must decide Loghain's fate.  You have not yet been informed of the "Archdemon's Revenge."   Sparing him may ultimately turn out for the best, but that's not the point, really. 

Right, so I do things Alistair's way for four playthroughs.  Then I do things differently.  And there's Alistair, standing firmly in my path arguing about everything that I know to be ultimately true.  He knows it's his game, I can't even leave him at camp, he's got his own cutscenes to give me ****.  I can't ignore him, can't walk around him, and can't NOT do it his way without hearing about it for the whole game.

It does kind of become the point in a game intended to be replayed.  And Alistair's responses are so varied and illogical and can't be strung together in ways that even make sense with the way you choose to play the game sometimes.

If you do everything his way, he's awesome and supportive.  Cross him once on even something that's ultimately the "right" thing to do, and he will slap you for it.

Makes me want to slap back, truth be told.  I adore the character.  But he's flat out wrong about the way things turn out and the way Duncan or the Grey Wardens were or are, and woefully ignorant of anything I might want as a player.  He's also impossible to convince of what it takes to "win the game" in any genuinely positive "good" way.  He becomes an obstacle.

They wrote him in completely inconsistent ways.  It's possible ask him at Landsmeet what he wants, if he's unhardened and Anora betrayed you at Landsmeet, he will say "Make her queen!" and then in THE NEXT SENTENCE "No!  Don't make her queen!  She betrayed us!"  Then he'll hate you for making him king either way.

If you're in love and on the rooftop, it's possible for him to say...in the same dialogue option, mind - "I know I'd be a bad king" (but he wouldn't.)  Anora deserves to be queen (she doesn't) and all manner of completely contradictory stuff if you follow the whole dialogue tree.

He only has principles when it suits the plot, then they're immutable.  Otherwise if you try to ASK him about what he wants, he will waffle so badly I need syrup.

As a character, he is awesomeness incarnate.  

As something the PC needs to interact with, he's an immutable game of "Groundhog Day" where everything's the same no matter what you do.   For example...playing an evil game where I kill Connor.  I do the leg work.  Before I go to Redcliffe, I wipe out the Circle.  Now Alistair says he won't help me kill Wynne, then he does it anyway.  Then I go collect the ashes.  I discredit Jowan as a source of information.  Now I KNOW...that the game should therefore realize that there is...no other way to save Connor at this point in the game.  I can't do the ritual, I don't trust Jowan.  Even Alistair hates blood mages and shouldn't trust Jowan.  Right?   BUT...Alistair just KNOWS there's something else we could have done.  How does he know that?  Even HE said he didn't recommend killing children, but Connor is an abomination.

Alistair's one of the worst offenders of metagaming.  He omnipotently "knows" things that are patently wrong in game context, and there's no way around it.

There's no way to predict when he will or will not agree with you and whether it will or will not make sense in context to MY game.

So you're basically saying that the problem with Alistair is not a question of whether or not he's selfish/cowardly/wimpy, but that he is instead a frustrating manifestation of a railroad character being implemented in an otherwise nonlinear game? A fascinating angle in the pro vs. anti Alistair debate that seems to need further exploration... :chinstrokingemote:

[ejoslin]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Vicious wrote...

It's pretty weird that Alistair will happily kill a defeated enemy who has yielded honorably right in front of his only daughter with her father's blood staining her face, but he gets mad if I do anything remotely similar, Conner,Isolde,random people.

Connor, Isolde, and random people did not abandon the field at Ostagar, condemn an entire warrior class by denouncing them as traitors, have psychopaths as their seconds in command, condone killing and taking over teyrns, did not engage in slavery to line their coffers, plunge the country into civil war, or assassinate arls.

Just sayin'.

I actually disagree with this point.  Isolde's actions led to the death of most of the people her husband was sworn to protect.  She abandoned her people just as surely, and in some ways it was even worse, because she let it happen over the course of many nights.  

[robertthebard]

Taritu wrote...

Folks are confused. Killing Loghain is justice. The man is guilty of mass murder and selling people into slavery. It may also be vengeance, but it is justice, because Loghain is guilty of bad enough crimes to warrant capital punishment. He's also a traitor.

Not saying I might not let him live, but killing him isn't unjust, and Alistair is not crazed to want him to be killed, because it is just.

If Loghain survives the Joining, which we know he will, he has been given 30 years to live.  This is a death sentence, that I share with him as a Grey Warden.  Despite Alistair running off to get drunk when his coup fails, assuming he lives, he has the same sentence.  Doing the ritual assures that he will live for that 30 years rebuilding the Grey Wardens, with knowledge that he had to sleep with Morrigan.  At what cost?  Killing does nothing but satisfy that need for revenge.  Letting him live, however, punishes him.

[Taritu]

Isolde deserved to die--a lot of villagers died because of her putting her son's life ahead of everyone else's. First playthrough I had Jowan kill her because I wasn't willing to take the chance of giving the demon more time. (Of course, it turns out that there's no penalty to taking your time, so these days I do. But that's one of the biggest copouts of the game by bioware.)

[Recidiva]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

So you're basically saying that the problem with Alistair is not a question of whether or not he's selfish/cowardly/wimpy, but that he is instead a frustrating manifestation of a railroad character being implemented in an otherwise nonlinear game? A fascinating angle in the pro vs. anti Alistair debate that seems to need further exploration... :chinstrokingemote:

Pretty much, yeah.

I'm way pro Alistair as a character say, in a novel.  An audio novel preferably.

I'm frustrated as hell with Alistair as a character that screws up my immersion more than any other due to his inability to adapt to changing circumstances in any way.