129 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

It is not justice to go against what a court has decided. By your definition, if I get up in a court room and kill a defendant because the court just gave him 30 years in prison instead of the death penalty, it should be all good, because I just wanted "justice" for that guy killing my wife, or whatever. What do you suppose is really going to happen when I satisfy my need for revenge?

In another thread, someone compared releasing Loghain to releasing someone that was in the FBI custody. You then countered by saying you cannot use reality with a fantasy game situation because there are no darkspawn in real life to kill. I now question you using a real life example.

In the context of Ferelden, you don't even get tried for jail if you kill Howe in his own home and kill Cauthrien along the way. To compare it to real life murder cases is thus irrelevant.

Alistair wanting to be king to execute Loghain is not a strange thing. It is within his right in Ferelden.

Alistair cries, literally from the time you find out who he is that he doesn't want to be king. Now, because Loghain is to live, he decides he wants to be King, just so he can make sure that his idea of justice is met? That's revenge, and nothing else. Take off the blinders mate, he's not doing this for anything like Justice, he is, just as Loghain did prior to the duel, thumbing his nose at the Landsmeet, telling them that they have no right to decree anything but what he wants to hear. If Loghain doing this is bad, then anyone else doing it is too.

Loghain to live was still in contention. Loghain by default is to be executed for treason and various crimes. And because you want to deny Alistair the right to seek justice, which should by default be his, he then wants to take the throne to get it. He didn't have to do that to get justice, you made him do that.

The Landsmeet was only to decide who should be ruler, not that Loghain is to live. No sentence was decided on Loghain yet.

Summary: Alistair is not power-hungry like Anora or Loghain.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:49 .

[Taritu]

Recidiva wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

So you're basically saying that the problem with Alistair is not a question of whether or not he's selfish/cowardly/wimpy, but that he is instead a frustrating manifestation of a railroad character being implemented in an otherwise nonlinear game? A fascinating angle in the pro vs. anti Alistair debate that seems to need further exploration... :chinstrokingemote:

Pretty much, yeah.

I'm way pro Alistair as a character say, in a novel.  An audio novel preferably.

I'm frustrated as hell with Alistair as a character that screws up my immersion more than any other due to his inability to adapt to changing circumstances in any way. 

the dialogue options also irritate me.  When I used the blood magic and he confronts me later, I had no option to say "I didn't want to take days going to the tower, because the demon might have killed more people.  One guilty person's life is better lost than chancing losing many innocent people's lives.

It was the first thing in the game that really really irritated me in my first playthrough.

[Vicious]

(Of course, it turns out that there's no penalty to taking your time, so these days I do. But that's one of the biggest copouts of the game by bioware.)

OMG That is so true, for a game billed about making tough choices, this was one of the most glaringly ugly problems about it. No penalty for trying to take the high road. at all. Yech!

Not saying I might not let him live, but killing him isn't unjust, and Alistair is not crazed to want him to be killed,

No, it's not unjust, it is however on the tad brutal side, but thats somethign else. Forget Loghain for a sec.

If you DON'T do it, Alistair will leave you and everyone in Denerim to fight the Archdemon. "Have fun fighting the blight... or whatever." he says as he walks off. Really I think Duncan would have been utterly ashamed at him for that. END THE BLIGHT. THE BLIGHT IS WHAT MATTERS. He can settle up with Loghain afterwards.

Instead he just turns tail and leaves his brothers his country to maybe die without him. Obviously we know what happens, but that makes no difference: He didn't know what would happen and he left anyway.

UGH. No excuse there. "I left my Grey Warden brothers to die because they inducted this guy i didn't like and I got mad." He cannot possibly justify his leaving to the other Grey Wardens. Riordan for instance knew what Loghain did, and he was the one who came up with the idea. You can expect other GW's to take Riordan's view on it, and that's why Alistair becomes a useless drunk.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:52 .

[ejoslin]

Taritu wrote...

the dialogue options also irritate me.  When I used the blood magic and he confronts me later, I had no option to say "I didn't want to take days going to the tower, because the demon might have killed more people.  One guilty person's life is better lost than chancing losing many innocent people's lives.

It was the first thing in the game that really really irritated me in my first playthrough.

I was about to write pretty much the same thing. I wanted to question Ali on why her life was so much more important than the remaining villagers who very well could die in the time it takes to get to the circle -- especially considering it was her duty to protect them and this was most likely the best way.

My PC, cold blooded killer that she always is, says much nicer things than I would under stressful circumstances.

[robertthebard]

ejoslin wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Vicious wrote...

It's pretty weird that Alistair will happily kill a defeated enemy who has yielded honorably right in front of his only daughter with her father's blood staining her face, but he gets mad if I do anything remotely similar, Conner,Isolde,random people.

Connor, Isolde, and random people did not abandon the field at Ostagar, condemn an entire warrior class by denouncing them as traitors, have psychopaths as their seconds in command, condone killing and taking over teyrns, did not engage in slavery to line their coffers, plunge the country into civil war, or assassinate arls.

Just sayin'.

I actually disagree with this point.  Isolde's actions led to the death of most of the people her husband was sworn to protect.  She abandoned her people just as surely, and in some ways it was even worse, because she let it happen over the course of many nights.  

I want to expand on this point a bit.  What would the condition of Redcliffe be if Isolde had gone ahead and sent Connor to the Circle?  This is, according to what is going on in Ferelden, the accepted/right thing to do.  Instead, she selfishly decides that she should hire an Apostate Mage to teach her son in secret.  In so doing, she finds that Loghain recommends Jowan, or at least that is what we are led to believe, and I really have no reason to doubt, other than the nature of Arl Howe.  However, if she sends Connor to the Circle, then according to the plot as laid out, there is no need for Jowan to be in Redcliffe Castle, he can't poison Eamon, and when we get there, it's just another town.  In other words, everything that happens in Redcliffe can be directly attributed to Isolde.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that Loghain deserves to die for his treachery, but Isolde should be allowed to live for hers?  Both caused catastrophic loss of life.  Loghain's did cause the King's death, which in the eyes of Ferelden is what's important, but Isolde's nearly cost Eamon his life, which would also be important to Ferelden.  Alistair doesn't want Loghain dead for killing Cailin, or the soldiers that he left to die.  He wants Loghain dead for killing Duncan.  The Alistair fan club has been all over this since it came up.  "Loghain caused the death of his father figure...".  In the grand scheme of things, this is not an important death in the eyes of Ferelden.  Duncan was one more soldier lost.  The Slavery thing, and duplicity in Eamon's poisoning are other things that matter to Ferelden, but if there's an option to say, at the Landsmeet, that he let Duncan die, go ahead and use it, and see if it lets you win.

[GhostMatter]

I let Alistair duel him because he was the only who could take him in my current team. My PC gave the OK and he cut Loghain's head... I was... stumped xD but happy. That ****er.

[Original182]

Vicious wrote...
If you DON'T do it, Alistair will leave you and everyone in Denerim to fight the Archdemon. "Have fun fighting the blight... or whatever." he says as he walks off. Really I think Duncan would have been utterly ashamed at him for that. END THE BLIGHT. THE BLIGHT IS WHAT MATTERS. He can settle up with Loghain afterwards.

Instead he just turns tail and leaves his brothers his country to maybe die without him. Obviously we know what happens, but that makes no difference: He didn't know what would happen and he left anyway.

UGH. No excuse there. "I left my Grey Warden brothers to die because they inducted this guy i didn't like and I got mad." He cannot possibly justify his leaving to the other Grey Wardens. Riordan for instance knew what Loghain did, and he was the one who came up with the idea. You can expect other GW's to take Riordan's view on it, and that's why Alistair becomes a useless drunk.

How is what Alistair did, any different from Loghain, who swore to defend Ferelden, yet left the King and Grey Wardens to die? When Loghain did it, it's ok. But when Alistair does it, oh he's the biggest crybaby, he has no honor, he went back on his word, etc, etc.

And Alistair only left. No one died yet. To blame Alistair alone for something which hasn't even happened is really strange.

If you want anyone to blame, blame Loghain for abandoning Ostagar, which led to the main character having to go around chasing treaties to build a strong enough army to even attempt the archdemon. Because Loghain left, the darkspawn are allowed to become stronger and kill people and destroy Lothering on the way.
All that time spent chasing treaties could have been spent killing most of the archdemon at Ostagar and preparing for the archdemon with most of the Grey Wardens still alive. And what did Loghain use that time for? That's right, acting like a tyrant starting civil wars, killing even more people.

Loghain has caused so many more deaths than "Alistair's leaving" ever will. Yet it's strange that the anti-Alistairs don't mention this and only points fingers at Alistair.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:03 .

[Gulaman]

How do you 'harden' Alistair? I thought he was a wimp throughout the game?

[Koralis]

Recidiva wrote...

They wrote him in completely inconsistent ways.  It's possible ask him at Landsmeet what he wants, if he's unhardened and Anora betrayed you at Landsmeet, he will say "Make her queen!" and then in THE NEXT SENTENCE "No!  Don't make her queen!  She betrayed us!"  Then he'll hate you for making him king either way.

I didn't talk to him. I just told the Landsmeet that Allistair was going to be King.  He was shocked initially, then told me he was ok with it later and understood.  *shrug*


\\

  BUT...Alistair just KNOWS there's something else we could have done.  How does he know that?  Even HE said he didn't recommend killing children, but Connor is an abomination.

People say that even if there's nothing else that they can think of.  It's their way of coping with an impossible situation and hand-wringing.  Allistair does a lot of that because he's an intrinsically good and can't stand the idea that sometimes "evil" solutions are the only way to deal with things. 

[Squiggles1334]

robertthebard wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Folks are confused. Killing Loghain is justice. The man is guilty of mass murder and selling people into slavery. It may also be vengeance, but it is justice, because Loghain is guilty of bad enough crimes to warrant capital punishment. He's also a traitor.

Not saying I might not let him live, but killing him isn't unjust, and Alistair is not crazed to want him to be killed, because it is just.

If Loghain survives the Joining, which we know he will, he has been given 30 years to live.  This is a death sentence, that I share with him as a Grey Warden.  Despite Alistair running off to get drunk when his coup fails, assuming he lives, he has the same sentence.  Doing the ritual assures that he will live for that 30 years rebuilding the Grey Wardens, with knowledge that he had to sleep with Morrigan.  At what cost?  Killing does nothing but satisfy that need for revenge.  Letting him live, however, punishes him.

At this point, I think this might be skirting more towards the issues of justice and capital punishment as a whole which are both mired in a number of political and philosophical perspectives each colored by personal values and worldviews rather than just a single objectively correct answer that everyone can agree on once it is teased out through well-argued logic.

Some might say punishment must always leave room for the opportunity for redemption, some might say a criminal's death is not vengeance but simply the restitution of blood for blood, etc.

I'm sure we can debate about *Alistair's* motive for killing Loghain, but as a PC who ultimately makes the decision of kill or spare, there's a number of personal reasons a player can use to justify his or her decision, even if the dialog choices don't elaborate this. I personally can't fault a player for choosing to kill Loghain any more than I can fault a player for sparing him.

And I imagine Loghain, being the old timer that he is, probably has significantly less than 30 years left anyway.

[Vicious]

Blah blah blah I'm not talking about Loghain I'm talking about Alistair. You obviously can't compare one without the other. You quoted my post, I would have thought you'd freakin read it. Alistair did something wrong or can't you accept that? Without mentioning "OH LOGHAIN DID WORSE"

No matter what Loghain did the Grey Wardens proper will have a serious problem with what Alistair did/does if anyone mentions it to them. And Alistair is a pretty honorable guy and would probably admit it himself. Riordan is a senior GW, he represents them, and he was old friends with Duncan and basically represents the 'true wardens.' as opposed to Alistair's romantic view of them. They would agree with Riordan, not Alistair. It's not a fact but it's a very reasonable guess.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Recidiva]

Koralis wrote...

I didn't talk to him. I just told the Landsmeet that Allistair was going to be King.  He was shocked initially, then told me he was ok with it later and understood.  *shrug*

People say that even if there's nothing else that they can think of.  It's their way of coping with an impossible situation and hand-wringing.  Allistair does a lot of that because he's an intrinsically good and can't stand the idea that sometimes "evil" solutions are the only way to deal with things. 

Right, do things Alistair's way and it's all good.  Give him what he wants and he's happy and giggling.  That's a five year old.

And that's why I think he's a weak character and not good or bad.  He's "gray" in that uncompromising, unthinking way.

However, I prize strategy and flexibility and he's occasionally my biggest obstacle in the game because he's so busy being so...Alistair and not paying the slightest bit of attention to anything other than his grief and vengeance fantasies.

I don't buy that he's intrinsically good.  He's intrinsically in denial and idealistic.  That is not "good."    Not my kinda good anyway.  Not even the game's kind of good.  The game pretty much requires that you sacrifice Alistair in one way or the other for the greater good of Ferelden.

If he's allowed to be that idealistic but unable to back it up with any real-life sacrifices of his own for the greater good, he gets to stay in the "Five year old obstacle" category.

If only because Anora is a crap queen that slaughters elves for fun or negligence in her spare time.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

It is not justice to go against what a court has decided. By your definition, if I get up in a court room and kill a defendant because the court just gave him 30 years in prison instead of the death penalty, it should be all good, because I just wanted "justice" for that guy killing my wife, or whatever. What do you suppose is really going to happen when I satisfy my need for revenge?

In another thread, someone compared releasing Loghain to releasing someone that was in the FBI custody. You then countered by saying you cannot use reality with a fantasy game situation because there are no darkspawn in real life to kill. I now question you using a real life example.

In the context of Ferelden, you don't even get tried for jail if you kill Howe in his own home and kill Cauthrien along the way. To compare it to real life murder cases is thus irrelevant.

Alistair wanting to be king to execute Loghain is not a strange thing. It is within his right in Ferelden.

Alistair cries, literally from the time you find out who he is that he doesn't want to be king. Now, because Loghain is to live, he decides he wants to be King, just so he can make sure that his idea of justice is met? That's revenge, and nothing else. Take off the blinders mate, he's not doing this for anything like Justice, he is, just as Loghain did prior to the duel, thumbing his nose at the Landsmeet, telling them that they have no right to decree anything but what he wants to hear. If Loghain doing this is bad, then anyone else doing it is too.

Loghain to live was still in contention. Loghain by default is to be executed for treason and various crimes. And because you want to deny Alistair the right to seek justice, which should by default be his, he then wants to take the throne to get it. He didn't have to do that to get justice, you made him do that.

The Landsmeet was only to decide who should be ruler, not that Loghain is to live. No sentence was decided on Loghain yet.

Summary: Alistair is not power-hungry like Anora or Loghain.

Dude, seriously, get off Alistair's boots, you know where he's been walking.  What are the terms of the duel?  They are clearly laid out before you start.  The Landsmeet will follow the winner.  I dueled Loghain, and I won.  My terms, not Alistair's.  From day one, Alistair has laid the responsiblity for stopping the blight squarely on your shoulders.  When you decide that Riordan's statement about compelling reasons to have as many Wardens as possible at the Archdemon is compelling reason to let him live, the matter should be closed.  Now, you may be saying that he's not power hungry, and shouldn't be considered such, but, let's play what if:

What if he gets his way and siezes the crown and gets to kill Loghain?  Is he going to be a good King, or is he going to be a King that abuses his power to meet his ends, exactly the same way he did to get the crown in the first place.  While this is hypothetical, since he can't win that little decision, it's what needs to be considered.  At this point, he is no better than Anora or Loghain, and may in fact be worse than Anora.  No matter how she plays out in the Landsmeet.  However, there are a couple of times that Anora can betray you, she will still be a better ruler than one who all of a sudden decides that he's the best candidate for the throne because he wants to kill someone.  If you disagree with this, betrayal is betrayal, no matter who does it, and a crown taken through betrayal is a pretty strong portent of somebody that is power hungry.

Loghain is defined as power mad because he left Cailin to die, plus the list of all the other crimes he has committed.

Anora is defined as power hungry because she wants to keep what she already has.

Alistair is a saint, however, despite the fact that he will do exactly what Loghain did prior to your duel, and go against what the Landsmeet has decided.  You see, his sentence is no longer up in the air at this point.  Alistair's hissy fit is a direct result of that sentence being passed down.  You can color this however you like, but he is in it for the power to kill Loghain with noone being able to question him on it.

[Original182]

Vicious wrote...

Blah blah blah I'm not talking about Loghain I'm talking about Alistair. You obviously can't compare one without the other. You quoted my post, I would have thought you'd freakin read it. Alistair did something wrong or can't you accept that? Without mentioning "OH LOGHAIN DID WORSE"

How can you JUDGE Alistair for leaving, which is caused by recruiting Loghain? How can you find it acceptable to recruit Loghain when he left Ostagar, yet judge Alistair for leaving?

If you recruit Loghain, Alistair leaves.
If you recruit Loghain, that means you think Loghain leaving Ostagar is ok.
The only possible scenario for Alistair to leave is if you recruit Loghain.

Summary: Judging Alistair for leaving is hypocritical, because for that to happen, you would have recruited Loghain, and it is safe to assume you find him leaving Ostagar acceptable.

jesus really.

Praise the Lord.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:30 .

[Vicious]

total ownage in that post, one the Alistair-can-do-no-wrong-defense-squad will no doubt be all over.

Instead of going blah blah blah, maybe you should go buck buck buck for dramatic effect, since you have a chicken for a forum avatar.

I admit I was a bit too harsh in my previous post and replaced the last bit with some more thoughts. I apologize if I offended you somehow since you are attacking me and I would guess I offended you.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:12 .

[ejoslin]

robertthebard wrote...


I want to expand on this point a bit.  What would the condition of Redcliffe be if Isolde had gone ahead and sent Connor to the Circle?  This is, according to what is going on in Ferelden, the accepted/right thing to do.  Instead, she selfishly decides that she should hire an Apostate Mage to teach her son in secret.  In so doing, she finds that Loghain recommends Jowan, or at least that is what we are led to believe, and I really have no reason to doubt, other than the nature of Arl Howe.  However, if she sends Connor to the Circle, then according to the plot as laid out, there is no need for Jowan to be in Redcliffe Castle, he can't poison Eamon, and when we get there, it's just another town.  In other words, everything that happens in Redcliffe can be directly attributed to Isolde.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to say that Loghain deserves to die for his treachery, but Isolde should be allowed to live for hers?  Both caused catastrophic loss of life.  Loghain's did cause the King's death, which in the eyes of Ferelden is what's important, but Isolde's nearly cost Eamon his life, which would also be important to Ferelden.  Alistair doesn't want Loghain dead for killing Cailin, or the soldiers that he left to die.  He wants Loghain dead for killing Duncan.  The Alistair fan club has been all over this since it came up.  "Loghain caused the death of his father figure...".  In the grand scheme of things, this is not an important death in the eyes of Ferelden.  Duncan was one more soldier lost.  The Slavery thing, and duplicity in Eamon's poisoning are other things that matter to Ferelden, but if there's an option to say, at the Landsmeet, that he let Duncan die, go ahead and use it, and see if it lets you win.

Heh, while you make excellent points, I was just thinking about how Isolde let an abomination live (completely against the religion and laws of her land) despite it killing people continuously.  She refused to go for outside help because she knew it was the only REAL choice she had.  And then Ali gets mad if you killed Connor as even Bann Teagan (who should have been the one making the decision) tells you you must. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Dude, seriously, get off Alistair's boots

I think we should be the ones telling you that.

, you know where he's been walking.  What are the terms of the duel?  They are clearly laid out before you start.  The Landsmeet will follow the winner.  I dueled Loghain, and I won.  My terms, not Alistair's.  From day one, Alistair has laid the responsiblity for stopping the blight squarely on your shoulders.  When you decide that Riordan's statement about compelling reasons to have as many Wardens as possible at the Archdemon is compelling reason to let him live, the matter should be closed.  Now, you may be saying that he's not power hungry, and shouldn't be considered such, but, let's play what if:

What if he gets his way and siezes the crown and gets to kill Loghain?  Is he going to be a good King, or is he going to be a King that abuses his power to meet his ends, exactly the same way he did to get the crown in the first place.  While this is hypothetical, since he can't win that little decision, it's what needs to be considered.

Wrong, you judge that based on the epilogue. After he becomes king to kill Loghain, did he further abuse his power in the epilogue? You are calling him power-hungry just based on one act alone. Justice which should by default have been carried out.

Again, calling Alistair for wanting to seek justice as power-hungry is quite the stretch. Then Grey Wardens are also power-hungry, because they have invoked the Right of Conscription to prevent local Ferelden cases from carrying out their sentences. Duncan has done this for the dwarf commoner, mage and city elf origins.

It is well within Alistair's right to seize the throne to seek justice, even if you consider it countering the sentence you passed. Wanting to seek justice is not power hungry. He did not have to take the throne to get justice. That extra step should not have been needed.

At this point, he is no better than Anora or Loghain, and may in fact be worse than Anora.

Horrible reasoning. Alistair is as bad as Anora and Loghain just because he wants justice.

Alistair is a saint, however, despite the fact that he will do exactly what Loghain did prior to your duel, and go against what the Landsmeet has decided.  You see, his sentence is no longer up in the air at this point.  Alistair's hissy fit is a direct result of that sentence being passed down.  You can color this however you like, but he is in it for the power to kill Loghain with noone being able to question him on it.

How can wanting to kill Loghain for justice be power-hungry? Alistair has been with you up to that point as a lowly templar Grey Warden. He doesn't seek riches, willing to listen to your orders, and doesn't live like a rich noble. How can you say someone like that is power-hungry? How can you even compare him to Anora or Loghain?

Conclusion: Alistair is not as power-hungry as Anora or Loghain. That was the original point to be debated.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:25 .

[Recidiva]

Sacrifice Challenge:

When does Alistair make a personal sacrifice in the game? Ever?

The PC has to make a ton of them and drag everyone through their personal therapy sessions.

When does Alistair? He hates the load of leadership and won't take it or give advice, but he WILL spank you for making almost any choice unless it's the most blindly idealistic and involves assuming the order you belong to is the ethical equivalent of hospital candy stripers.

Where does HE make a personal sacrifice that benefits the PC and costs him something dearly?

Dying against orders doesn't count. 

Modifié par Recidiva, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:26 .

[Alastrian]

Taritu wrote...

Folks are confused. Killing Loghain is justice. The man is guilty of mass murder and selling people into slavery. It may also be vengeance, but it is justice, because Loghain is guilty of bad enough crimes to warrant capital punishment. He's also a traitor.

True enough that in pretty much every society with capital punishment, treason does carry the death penalty... and Loghain did commit treason on top of regicide, slavery and the attempt on Arl Eamon's life... not to mention being an accessory to the torture and unlawful imprisonment that Arl Howe committed... one of his victims being a Templar.

Not saying I might not let him live, but killing him isn't unjust, and Alistair is not crazed to want him to be killed, because it is just and there are a lot worse reasons to want to be king than because you see that if you aren't king, high placed people will not be punished for their crimes just because their relatives don't think mass murder is enough reason to be punished.  A common pickpocket in Fereldent gets the death penalty, but a mass murderer is to be let off?

Just like if a common soldier quits the field, its desertion... and if the general (who also happens to be the Teyrn of Gwaren) quits the field, its a 'tactical retreat'. Isn't power disparity so frustrating?

Hell... I've read most of The Stolen Throne and thus far, I like young Loghain from 30 years ago and I even respect young Loghain from 30 years ago. The whole 'but he's a great war hero' excuse is still a weak one nevertheless and it certainly shouldn't put him above the law.

Although for all of that, the Right of Conscription does trump the law... I have to wonder why Riordan doesn't invoke it on Loghain if the PC decides to kill him.

[Recidiva]

Alastrian wrote...

True enough that in pretty much every society with capital punishment, treason does carry the death penalty... and Loghain did commit treason on top of regicide, slavery and the attempt on Arl Eamon's life... not to mention being an accessory to the torture and unlawful imprisonment that Arl Howe committed... one of his victims being a Templar.

Just like if a common soldier quits the field, its desertion... and if the general (who also happens to be the Teyrn of Gwaren) quits the field, its a 'tactical retreat'. Isn't power disparity so frustrating?

Hell... I've read most of The Stolen Throne and thus far, I like young Loghain from 30 years ago and I even respect young Loghain from 30 years ago. The whole 'but he's a great war hero' excuse is still a weak one nevertheless and it certainly shouldn't put him above the law.

Although for all of that, the Right of Conscription does trump the law... I have to wonder why Riordan doesn't invoke it on Loghain if the PC decides to kill him.

Loghain made being a Grey Warden illegal.  The Rite of Conscription is at the discretion of the rulers in Denerim.  Who is...Loghain.  Who also stole the secret formula.

Modifié par Recidiva, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:31 .

[ejoslin]

Recidiva wrote...

Sacrifice Challenge:

When does Alistair make a personal sacrifice in the game? Ever?

The PC has to make a ton of them and drag everyone through their personal therapy sessions.

When does Alistair? He hates the load of leadership and won't take it or give advice, but he WILL spank you for making almost any choice unless it's the most blindly idealistic and involves assuming the order you belong to is the ethical equivalent of hospital candy stripers.

Where does HE make a personal sacrifice that benefits the PC and costs him something dearly?

Dying against orders doesn't count. 

The only one I can think of is if he has sex with Morrigan.  And I agree that dying doesn't count.  My PC called him a coward for that.

[Recidiva]

ejoslin wrote...

The only one I can think of is if he has sex with Morrigan.  And I agree that dying doesn't count.  My PC called him a coward for that.

And you have to lie to him to get him to do that.   And it's a massive squick factor. 

That's just my point about context.  The PC is forced to make horrific choices and if Alistair is theoretically a witness to the strain that should place on an individual.  He's also seen results that only you were able to obtain by your methods.

He can't serve simultaneously the PC or Duncan's memory or ending the Blight, those are the three masters he's contending with.  But he chooses to betray the PC, fail Duncan's memory (the real Duncan, who would have jumped at recruting Loghain) and walk away from ending the blight.  Fail.

[Original182]

Alastrian wrote...
Although for all of that, the Right of Conscription does trump the law... I have to wonder why Riordan doesn't invoke it on Loghain if the PC decides to kill him.

Maybe because it is out of respect for Alistair and the rest of the Grey Wardens who were killed, or that it's very borderline whether to let Loghain live or not, that in the end it's up to the main character to break that deadlock.

[Squiggles1334]

ejoslin wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Sacrifice Challenge:

When does Alistair make a personal sacrifice in the game? Ever?

The PC has to make a ton of them and drag everyone through their personal therapy sessions.

When does Alistair? He hates the load of leadership and won't take it or give advice, but he WILL spank you for making almost any choice unless it's the most blindly idealistic and involves assuming the order you belong to is the ethical equivalent of hospital candy stripers.

Where does HE make a personal sacrifice that benefits the PC and costs him something dearly?

Dying against orders doesn't count. 

The only one I can think of is if he has sex with Morrigan.  And I agree that dying doesn't count.  My PC called him a coward for that.

Haha, I was gonna say sex with Morrigan as a joke.

Out of curiosity, what *are* some of the major personal sacrifices that are made by the NPCs who follow you?

Oghren can help kill Branka, but that's all that's really coming to mind right now. There must be more.

[JohnnStarr]

i killed Loghain he let soldiers to die at ostagar created a civil war that cost more lives that could be used to kill the darkspawn.imho he deserved what he got and i would do it evry time i replay it.

i cant seem with my morals to let him live even if its a game..