343 réponses à ce sujet

[ckriley]

I've been thinking about this more and more.  I've played through the game a couple times and the more I think about it, the more I realize what a HUGE plot hole the option of giving Morrigan a god child represents.

I mean, it's freaking enormous.

I said this before in an earlier thread about possible DLC storylines or even a DA2 plot or something, but think about it for a sec.  You, one of the last Grey Wardens in Ferelden and by the game's end, one of if not THE most powerful person in the land, have the option of succumbing to the forbidden love in your heart to lay with...wait for it...the daughter of the legendary Flemeth, the Great Witch of the Wild.

The implications of this story are just epic.  Truly.   It is laced with betrayal, intrigue, and heartbreak.  If you've successfully romanced Morrigan, you know that even though getting you (or Alistair if you're playing female - more on that in a second) to lay with her to give her the child was always part of her plan, she truly cared for you at the end, and regretted what she did.  Even Wynne comes around eventually when she realizes that the two of you really do care for each other.  And that beneath Morrigan's cruel exterior and cold demeanor, and in the midst of the chaos all around you,  there lies true love.

Now, out of this true love comes true evil.  A Grey Warden who breaks the sacred pact and makes a deal with a dark spirit to spare his life and consummate his love in return for a possible greater evil than even an Old God, now growing in the womb of a witch.  This just has sequel written all over it.

And you're telling me that all this is completely opitonal?  I'm sorry but that just sounds like a GREAT story.  I mean, we're talking about the possiblity of having a child.  Your own seed.  And not just any seed, but a tainted one at that.  Knowing full well that this will have repercussions on not only the Grey Wardens, who are already suspicious of how you survived, but on all of Thedas.  Beowulf much?

Even if you played a female PC, this could still work.  Maybe Morrigan seduces Alistair without even talking to you, and then at the end, you run up and kill the archdemon, fully expecting to sacrifice yourself in the process.  But then something strange happens.  You don't die.  At which point Alistair approaches you and says, "I need to tell you something...and please understand I did this for you...for us..."  And of course, Morrigan is now nowhere to be found.

And THAT'S how the game ends.   Of course, it has more resonance if you're playing a male character and are in a romance with Morrigan, because then you have all the stuff I talked about above going on, but there's still plenty of emotion if you Alistair just did it anyway to protect you.  And now there's an even greater evil out there somewhere, growing inside Morrigan's belly.

No way any of this should have been optional.  

[The Capital Gaultier]

Aside from the fact that none of the baby's future is definite, I think they'll pick an ending they like and run with it if they do a direct sequel.

[mousestalker]

If the god baby were inevitable, I doubt I'd ever replay the game. That's wielding a very heavy plot hammer. Exactly one of my characters found it internally consistent to go along with Morrigan. All of the rest have refused her offer. Allowing Morrigan to do to an older god what Flemith did to mere mortals is such a bad idea on so many levels.

[Squiggles1334]

"You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor, and it would have different... conclusions written on it that you could jump to!"

[LynxAQ]

I have to agree with mousestalker, on my seven playthroughs, only 2 of my characters agreed to Morrigans deal and that was because it made sense RP wise. And I see alot more people like myself and mousestalker than I see in reverse.



Forcing a plot line down people after we had so much choice in this game dispite the several choo choo express parts, would completely kill this game for me. If I tried to play the game after being told what the "real" story is, I would feel like I was playing wrong if I didn't do it the "right" way. So no I cant agree with you.



Some things I do want to mention in your argument that are a little irrelevant.

Even Wynne comes around eventually when she realizes that the two of you really do care for each other. And that beneath Morrigan's cruel exterior and cold demeanor, and in the midst of the chaos all around you, there lies true love.

Wynne says this no matter who you romance, so this point is irrelevant to your argument. She says the exact same thing whether you are romancing Alistair / Lelianna / Morrigan or Zevran.

Now, out of this true love comes true evil.

For someone who is obsessed at forcing this ending, you might wanna at least make sure you have correct points. The child as told by Morrigan in game will be born with the Old God soul, but it wouldnt be evil or anything like that. It would be a "normal" child in the sense of wrong and right.

Maybe Morrigan seduces Alistair without even talking to you, and then at the end, you run up and kill the archdemon, fully expecting to sacrifice yourself in the process.

Alistair would NEVER sleep with Morrigan unless you persuaded / forced him. Not a chance in hell. The fact that you think he would without you convincing him to, shows how much you don't know the character. Alistair actively volunteers to slay the arch demon (final blow) if you don't take the ritual.



Sorry but you are so wrong, this should of been optional always and I am glad it was.

[Obadiah]

Because of the goofy way Morrigan seduces the male PC halfway through the game and her odd behavior about sex later on when she "loves" the PC, I got the impression that having sex with Morrigan is probably all it took to have the Old God child. The choice at the end is just her twisted way of saving the PC while compromising him/her morally, which Morrigan seems to take joy in doing anyway. She seems to feel bad about it afterwards in the final Denarim assault.

I really like the ckriley's original description of this epic joining though. Well done!

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[robertthebard]

Yeah, Alistair really needs a lot of persuading to sleep with Morrigan. Level 2 Coercion on a mage, so a very low cunning score...It was the hardest Persuade check in the game...

[fantasypisces]

My only big complaint is that you are positive Morrigan and the god-child will be evil, this I disagree with. However, I agree with others that negating choice at the very end wouldn't be very good.

[Obadiah]

Morrigan remains power-hungry throughout the game, and the untainted Old Gods are the ones who taught the Tevinter Imperium Magisters the blood magic that supposedly allowed the tainting of the fade (not to mention the death of countless slaves and enemies in their thirst for power).

Morrigan probably intends to use the untainted Old God child to seek the same power as the Tevinter Magisters. However that could be described, I don't think "good" is one of them.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Stewart Smalley would say the OP had stinkin' thinkin'.



But sure, make some DLC reguarding the demon seed, people who found this option repugnant wouldn't buy it, Morrigan fanbois would fall all over themselves to get it and everyone wins.



That is the great thing about optional DLC, it is optional, you get what you want and leave the rest and it doesn't affect you at all. What would suck would be for them to FORCE us to have that ending after giving us 3 other perfectly valid endings.



In three endings out of four there is no such god-baby, so it would be really really dumb to make that cannon for DAO2/expansion - but as optional DLC it would be marvellous.

[SleepyBird]

I don't think the ritual really IS an option. Turn her down, she still says she's going to go "do what she must" and disappears. Maybe we're denying her the easy way of getting the god-child, but I'm sure she has a back up plan (just one that doesn't save my PC's life).

[Ulicus]

ckriley:I know what you mean. While I absolutely think that the option of rejecting the offer should have been there, with Morrigan storming off... I have to admit that I was fully expecting her to have found some way to complete her ritual anyway, and for whomever dealt the deathblow to survive.

[Obadiah]

SleepyBird wrote...

I don't think the ritual really IS an option. Turn her down, she still says she's going to go "do what she must" and disappears. Maybe we're denying her the easy way of getting the god-child, but I'm sure she has a back up plan (just one that doesn't save my PC's life).

Agreed. It also makes the writing of a possible sequel involving the rise of the Old God simpler.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[TheMadCat]

I still think it's possible to have the child with the PC never actually doing the ritual. It's blatantly obvious the child will be a major player in the next chapter, weather it's DLC, expansion, or a full blown sequel. Morrigan seemed to want it to much to simply go away. There was still a third Grey Warden in a room right down the hall. Whose to say she didn't slip back in the middle of the night, seduce him, sleep with him, then at the fight with the Archdemon transform into a bird, fly to the top and preform the ritual. Perhaps she was able take the essence before it was destroyed inside PC/Alistair/Loghain though not before it destroyed them, perhaps she managed to take a piece of it so to speak.



Basically what I'm saying is there is nothing completely shutting down the continuation of the child's story nor the drama it would unfold simply because the PC refused her completely. There were plenty of viable reasons for a character to refuse the offer, distrust of Morrigan, love for another character, duty and pride, ect. In an RPG major, major events like this should not be forced unless absolutely necessary for the story. As I said above they left themselves with plenty of breathing room to go on with the God-child story despite the PC rejecting Morrigan and kicking her out.

[Maconbar]

I have to admit that even though this topic has been covered in numerous threads it make for interesting theorycrafting.



I am of the mind that the god-baby story will continue in DA:2 because Flemeth, Morrigan, and baby form an interesting mystery and its the only major element introduced in DA:O that wasn't resolved.



I think that there are feasible ways to get to the god-baby ending even if the PC turned Morrigan down. I think that its very unlikely that Morrigan would simply give up on this plan if turned down. Its also unlikely that Morrigan told the PC the entire story about the Dark Ritual.

[fantasypisces]

Obadiah wrote...

Morrigan remains power-hungry throughout the game, and the untainted Old Gods are the ones who taught the Tevinter Imperium Magisters the blood magic that supposedly allowed the tainting of the fade (not to mention the death of countless slaves and enemies in their thirst for power).

Morrigan probably intends to use the untainted Old God child to seek the same power as the Tevinter Magisters. However that could be described, I don't think "good" is one of them.

And from what is described in another thread: the "Blood Magic" thread... Blood magic isn't more evil than any other magic, it is simply how you use it. Morrigan does not like the blight, she certainly does not want to recreate it, and therefore I don't think she would let the soul of the old god become corrupted.
Additionally, I am of the opinion that simply the soul of the old god cannot be corrupted, it is the body and mind of the old god that becomes corrupted. Because you are taking the body out of the picture, and instead having hte body of a child with grey warden blood running through it's veins, it will not be tainted. Because you have to remember that Grey Wardens survived the taint, at least for a time. Therefore the childs blood and body, and what is essentially holding the soul of the old god, is pure and free of corruption.
Morrigan is not evil, she desires power. Desiring power =/= evil.

[Tirigon]

A possible sequel will just use the ending that fits best. You dont need to force the player into the ritual to use it in a sequel.

[fantasypisces]

Obadiah wrote...

Because of the goofy way Morrigan seduces the male PC halfway through the game and her odd behavior about sex later on when she "loves" the PC, I got the impression that having sex with Morrigan is probably all it took to have the Old God child. The choice at the end is just her twisted way of saving the PC while compromising him/her morally, which Morrigan seems to take joy in doing anyway. She seems to feel bad about it afterwards in the final Denarim assault.

I really like the ckriley's original description of this epic joining though. Well done!

You make it seem like she got what she wanted, and therefore she is 'done' with the PC. This I do not agree with at all. She stops sleeping with the PC when she gets to 'love' because she is now confused. She was always taught that love is a weakness and so now she is grappling with what her mother taught her, and how she feels. That is why she stops. She stops because she does love the PC and is terrified it could either 1) be a weakness like what her mother said, or 2) she will care about him so much that she would feel to bad if something bad happens. This was her character development, not some evil maniacle plan coming to fruition.

[SarEnyaDor]

Well, if Morrigan can somehow do it, despite my heroic sacrifice, I expect reprecussions - like my soul getting sucked out of the Fade as well. Maybe I can claw my way out of my tomb ala Buffy and wander around disoriented wondering why the heck everyone is freaking out when they look at me. Vampires destroying Redcliff is optional.

[GammaRayJim]

I finished the game twice choosing to sleep with her in one and turn her down in the other. The epilogue in the one that I turned her down in stated that she was last seen crossing the Frostback mountains she was heavy with child. That same as in the one where I choose to sleep with her. Sorry guys I think this is a done deal for any future DLC, exp or sequels.

[SarEnyaDor]

It doesn't say that at all if you are a female character, or a male that never romanced her, it instead says that a strange dark-haired mage had insinuated herself into the Empress of Orlais court - nothing about a child at all.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 20 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[MiG-77]

Tirigon wrote...

A possible sequel will just use the ending that fits best. You dont need to force the player into the ritual to use it in a sequel.

 And godchild fits everone of them. Only thing that changes is who is father and what were circumstances.

[Bullets McDeath]

multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/11/why-dragon-age-isnt-a-trilogy/

They've said next to nothing about the sequel, but what little they have said suggests it will not in any way continue the storylines of the first game. It was not designed that way. I know people love the baby Old God and I could certainly imagine a DLC detaling how that plot resolves for those of us who want it, but in this and a few other articles, developers have stated they have no plans to continue this story. Even if they did, it'd be a slap in the face to anyone who didn't choose that ending, and the idea of playing as the baby Old God in the next game is so cliche if Bioware pulls that... ugh, well, I have faith that they won't resort to such a bad idea. The beauty of this game is it's open ended nature. When you start making endings canon and forcing everyone into one origin, we're talking about backwards growth there.

Spitball all ya want, just wanted to pop in and tell everyone they are wrong lol

[Obadiah]

GammaRayJim wrote...

I finished the game twice choosing to sleep with her in one and turn her down in the other. The epilogue in the one that I turned her down in stated that she was last seen crossing the Frostback mountains she was heavy with child. That same as in the one where I choose to sleep with her. Sorry guys I think this is a done deal for any future DLC, exp or sequels.

When you don't take the deal at the end, but romance Morrigan anyway, it says she is pregnant and something like, "regardless, no ritual was performed so blah blah blah..." I forget the exact wording.

[GammaRayJim]

Well it said it in both of mine and I did not romance her in either one, although I did get her well up into the adore range close to love. It did not say anything about the Empress of Orlais so apparently even the epilogues leave a lot to ponder and question.