343 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

I have no need to say anyone made anything up.  I don't, however see a majority.  2 of 5 factions agree, and the other three aren't allied, but it's looking like they might, which would result in Civil War.  If the majority of them agreed, then the majority would be aligned.  2 of 5 are in this example.  The Majority would be 3 of 5.  However, to see what I'm saying, just go roll a mage.  You don't even have to play it.  Just roll it and watch the cutscene.

I'm kinda tired, so I may not respond to your other post. I believe I have create a strong case for the Chantry that they are not entirely evil and deserve the benefit of the doubt, at least as much as the Old Gods.

Your original point was that the Tower can be a haven and a prison as well. I assumed that you are trying to imply that the Chantry treats mages badly by not letting them go free, which has been the theme of your posts (Chantry = evil).

And my point was that the majority of the mages so far agree they have to abide by the Chantry rules. If the mages themselves agree to this, why try to again cast blame on the Chantry for the supposed mistreatment of the mages? The mages themselves agree with the rules!

And yes I am currently playing an elf mage in my current game. If you're trying to imply Chantry prevents mages from going free, therefore Chantry evil, again the majority of the mages agree to this.

In the political world, because of what Uldred did to the tower, this casts the Libertarians in bad light, showing that mages are dangerous and should not be given a lot of freedom. They have commited murder of a large scale, more than the "evil" Chantry will ever kill.

Conclusion: Chantry are not evil for their current treatment of mages. Mages currently agree to the rules. Only a minority think they should be free of the Chantry.

[Original182]

Baalzie wrote...

And to return the the actual TOPIC:
Morrigan ofc gets the baby no matter WHAT you say... If neither You or Alistair puts up for some strange reason, there's always Riordan...

I think Riordan won't work, because Riordan's taint is too old. Only new Grey Wardens like the main character, Alistair, or Loghain will work.

[Sialater]

Original182 wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

And to return the the actual TOPIC:
Morrigan ofc gets the baby no matter WHAT you say... If neither You or Alistair puts up for some strange reason, there's always Riordan...

I think Riordan won't work, because Riordan's taint is too old. Only new Grey Wardens like the main character, Alistair, or Loghain will work.

Exactly, that's why Flemeth rescued you and Al and not, say, swooped down to get Duncan from his fate by the two-handed axe.

[Squiggles1334]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I have no need to say anyone made anything up.  I don't, however see a majority.  2 of 5 factions agree, and the other three aren't allied, but it's looking like they might, which would result in Civil War.  If the majority of them agreed, then the majority would be aligned.  2 of 5 are in this example.  The Majority would be 3 of 5.  However, to see what I'm saying, just go roll a mage.  You don't even have to play it.  Just roll it and watch the cutscene.

I'm kinda tired, so I may not respond to your other post. I believe I have create a strong case for the Chantry that they are not entirely evil and deserve the benefit of the doubt, at least as much as the Old Gods.

Your original point was that the Tower can be a haven and a prison as well. I assumed that you are trying to imply that the Chantry treats mages badly by not letting them go free, which has been the theme of your posts (Chantry = evil).

And my point was that the majority of the mages so far agree they have to abide by the Chantry rules. If the mages themselves agree to this, why try to again cast blame on the Chantry for the supposed mistreatment of the mages? The mages themselves agree with the rules!

And yes I am currently playing an elf mage in my current game. If you're trying to imply Chantry prevents mages from going free, therefore Chantry evil, again the majority of the mages agree to this.

In the political world, because of what Uldred did to the tower, this casts the Libertarians in bad light, showing that mages are dangerous and should not be given a lot of freedom. They have commited murder of a large scale, more than the "evil" Chantry will ever kill.

Conclusion: Chantry are not evil for their current treatment of mages. Mages currently agree to the rules. Only a minority think they should be free of the Chantry.

I know this is starting to wade into the waters of Lake Speculation, but I wonder how much of that portion of pro-Chantry mages is made up of fairweather and lip-service supporters who are either kept in line through intimidation (does wonders to have templars breathing down your neck in every hallway of the Tower) or propaganda. Consider the fact that few ever even leave the Tower at all in their lifetimes. They've got a Chantry-approved education. Look at our friend at the shrine in the origin story who thinks being magically gifted is a curse that she wants the Maker to take away.

[Squiggles1334]

Original182 wrote...

In the political world, because of what Uldred did to the tower, this casts the Libertarians in bad light, showing that mages are dangerous and should not be given a lot of freedom. They have commited murder of a large scale, more than the "evil" Chantry will ever kill.

Whoa there, now I don't have any solid numbers to back up my claim here, but I'm rather willing to bet that between the Exalted March against the Dales and the systematic hunting of any and every apostate in Fereldan, the Chantry has way more blood on its hands than Uldred and his lackeys do.

[robertthebard]

The thing I said about haven and prison is from the opening narration of the mage origin. It has no bearing on whether the Chantry is good or evil, but simply exists. The reality of the tower, if you play the mage origin, is that it is both. While this is due to supervision of the Templars, you'll notice that I have never said that the mages should be left to their own devices. I have seen the mage tower after Uldred. I have no illusions about absolute power corrupting absolutely. This is just an aside that the dialog took, and not used to hook whether the Chantry is as innocent as some claim, or has some pretty shady practices as well. I think we have come to the conclusion that they do indeed have some shady stuff going on. This is what I was trying to get across. We can't say the Old Gods are evil because we don't know their nature. However, as you can see, people will say the Chantry is good, despite evidence that they are kinda shady...

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

The thing I said about haven and prison is from the opening narration of the mage origin. It has no bearing on whether the Chantry is good or evil, but simply exists. The reality of the tower, if you play the mage origin, is that it is both. While this is due to supervision of the Templars, you'll notice that I have never said that the mages should be left to their own devices. I have seen the mage tower after Uldred. I have no illusions about absolute power corrupting absolutely. This is just an aside that the dialog took, and not used to hook whether the Chantry is as innocent as some claim, or has some pretty shady practices as well. I think we have come to the conclusion that they do indeed have some shady stuff going on. This is what I was trying to get across. We can't say the Old Gods are evil because we don't know their nature. However, as you can see, people will say the Chantry is good, despite evidence that they are kinda shady...

The Chantry is just as grey as everything else in Thedas.

[robertthebard]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Original182 wrote...

In the political world, because of what Uldred did to the tower, this casts the Libertarians in bad light, showing that mages are dangerous and should not be given a lot of freedom. They have commited murder of a large scale, more than the "evil" Chantry will ever kill.

Whoa there, now I don't have any solid numbers to back up my claim here, but I'm rather willing to bet that between the Exalted March against the Dales and the systematic hunting of any and every apostate in Fereldan, the Chantry has way more blood on its hands than Uldred and his lackeys do.

This.  The Exalted March against the Dales not only resulted in a larger scale loss of life than anything Uldred did, it also almost completely anihilated a whole culture, and despite the Serve not rule over man thing, they sure put those mages on 'em pretty fast.  I guess that chant doesn't include elves, or dwarves when it says to not rule over him?  Because they won't hesitate to put mages on people they want to subjegate.

[Sialater]

Mages are the nuclear option.

[Squiggles1334]

The Tevinter Imperium is harboring mages of mass destruction.

[robertthebard]

OMG, get the marines..

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

This.  The Exalted March against the Dales not only resulted in a larger scale loss of life than anything Uldred did, it also almost completely anihilated a whole culture, and despite the Serve not rule over man thing, they sure put those mages on 'em pretty fast.  I guess that chant doesn't include elves, or dwarves when it says to not rule over him?  Because they won't hesitate to put mages on people they want to subjegate.

That is all well and good, but none of the that bloody history justifies the Grey Warden putting something as potentially powerful and evil as an untainted Old God in the hands of power-hungry narcistic masochist Morrigan.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:44 .

[robertthebard]

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This.  The Exalted March against the Dales not only resulted in a larger scale loss of life than anything Uldred did, it also almost completely anihilated a whole culture, and despite the Serve not rule over man thing, they sure put those mages on 'em pretty fast.  I guess that chant doesn't include elves, or dwarves when it says to not rule over him?  Because they won't hesitate to put mages on people they want to subjegate.

That is all well and good, but none of the that bloody history justifies the Grey Warden putting something as potentially powerful as an untainted Old God in the hands of power-hungry narcistic masochist Morrigan.

I think the key word here is potentially.  We have no idea what is going to happen with this baby, or if it even gets born, and we won't know until it comes up in an expansion or sequel.  For all we know, there may well be some DLC that allows you to track her down and kill her, if you wanted, before the baby is even born.  We just don't know.

[Sialater]

And what if the death of all the old gods gives you a world bereft of magic?

[Squiggles1334]

Hopefully no more templars and circle of magi?

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

I think the key word here is potentially.  We have no idea what is going to happen with this baby, or if it even gets born, and we won't know until it comes up in an expansion or sequel.  For all we know, there may well be some DLC that allows you to track her down and kill her, if you wanted, before the baby is even born.  We just don't know.

So, because it's "potentially" dangerous on the scale of the blight you're facing right now "it doesn't matter", or "you'll handle it later?"

[Shrug] I've heard of worse plans.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[TheMadCat]

Wow this thread derailed hard, hehe. Interesting discussions though.

I think Riordan won't work, because Riordan's taint is too old. Only new Grey Wardens like the main character, Alistair, or Loghain will work.

Yeah that whole thing is the monkey wrench in the cog so to speak in going with the child plot while still allowing all other ending choices to stick. It is Morrigan who said it I believe, and the only time you can trust what Morrigan says is when she doesn't say anything at all. Perhaps the reality is it's simply more ideal for a younger Warden to be the subject so she would indeed make the claim that is must be done by a young one. Keep pushing for your target, if it fails go with the backup plan even if it isn't ideal.
I don't know, throwing bones here obviously. I'd really hate to see a canonical ending for the sake of continuity.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:54 .

[robertthebard]

I have a very real blight, or an imaginary problem later. Ending the blight could cost me my life. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I knew that Alistair, or Loghain was going to bite the bullet, but it might be me, and on the one play through where I took the ritual, it wasn't going to be me.

[Asylumer]

Sialater wrote...

And what if the death of all the old gods gives you a world bereft of magic?

Or if they're the only thing stopping the 4 magisters from taking full control of the Black City

*now that's speculation!*

Letting Morrigan have the child is a good idea because nothing is really known about the connection between the Old Gods and Darkspawn besides the get tainted and go crazy until they die one-by-one part. Placing full trust in the Chantry's version of the tale is foolish and reckless at best.

/waits for the apologists to claim I'm attacking the Chantry and that I think they can do no good.

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

I have a very real blight, or an imaginary problem later. Ending the blight could cost me my life. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I knew that Alistair, or Loghain was going to bite the bullet, but it might be me, and on the one play through where I took the ritual, it wasn't going to be me.

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Squiggles1334]

If I'm playing a selfish character looking out for #1, then sure he'll take the ritual. Maybe he figures there will be consequences, maybe he won't. Frankly, he won't give a damn.

[TheMadCat]

Letting Morrigan have the child is a good idea because nothing is
really known about the connection between the Old Gods and Darkspawn
besides the get tainted and go crazy until they die one-by-one part.
Placing full trust in the Chantry's version of the tale is foolish and
reckless at best.

Hehe, I'll attack it from another angle. Honestly I'm not sure anyone aside from Morrigan and Flemeth know exactly what the benefits and consequences really are. Knowing Morrigan as we do it's rather obvious she's not doing this out of good will, charity, and self sacrifice. She is expecting something out of it, obviously something rather important. Exactly what her intentions truly are, exactly what the child is capable of, all rather shady at this time. It's a gamble, a huge gamble. Morrigan may simply keep the child hidden and to herself and do all she can to prevent Flemeth from finding it, she may have some sinister plot laid out that would result is something ten times worse then the blight. You don't know, and it's a matter of how much do you trust Morrigan. Personally I didn't trust her an ounce, so I showed her the door rather quickly. Better to die now and end it all then possibly suffer through an even worse ordeal in a couple of years.

[Sialater]

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I have a very real blight, or an imaginary problem later. Ending the blight could cost me my life. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I knew that Alistair, or Loghain was going to bite the bullet, but it might be me, and on the one play through where I took the ritual, it wasn't going to be me.

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

[Baalzie]

Sialater wrote...

[

Exactly, that's why Flemeth rescued you and Al and not, say, swooped down to get Duncan from his fate by the two-handed axe.

Nah that's because she KNOWS Duncan'd be too smart to fall for it, and uhm he was in the thick of the damned HORDE... A tad more risky... Seeing as dragonform was most likey what she used *easiest way to off the darkies and fly off with 2 peeps* Duncan just MIGHT react the very undesired way of gutting her instead of being rescued, just as a reflex!

And she already MET you and knew You were not as knowledgeable, and quite possibly much more suspectable to Morrigans charms, being much Younger*just as Alistair*... Nowhere is it stated that the taint has to be new for the ritual to work... If it would then the taint would probably have to be old for the Archdemon to explode with ye when You kill him.... Taint is taint... In many ways...
Why would Old taint not provide a tainted baby?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Squiggles1334 wrote...
Whoa there, now I don't have any solid numbers to back up my claim here, but I'm rather willing to bet that between the Exalted March against the Dales and the systematic hunting of any and every apostate in Fereldan, the Chantry has way more blood on its hands than Uldred and his lackeys do.

And how many people dies at the hands of apostate mages? We have codex entries that say whole vilalges were lost to abominations.
Even David Gaider commented that the templars are needed.