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[Obadiah]

Sialater wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I have a very real blight, or an imaginary problem later. Ending the blight could cost me my life. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I knew that Alistair, or Loghain was going to bite the bullet, but it might be me, and on the one play through where I took the ritual, it wasn't going to be me.

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

Indeed. My Human Noble just couldn't do it because it looked like it was as much as a temptation to Morrigan as it was to him. City Elf, with no legacy to live up to and having spent most of his life in opposition to the government, took BardRobert's point of view, but knew there would be reprocussions that he would have to deal with.

Um... so, to the OP, damn good choice! Loved it, loved it, loved it! Wouldn't have it any other way! IMHO it was the icing on the cake for such an epic and touching story.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 décembre 2009 - 07:29 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Asylumer wrote...
Letting Morrigan have the child is a good idea because nothing is really known about the connection between the Old Gods and Darkspawn besides the get tainted and go crazy until they die one-by-one part. Placing full trust in the Chantry's version of the tale is foolish and reckless at best.

Funny thing is - I'm ignoring the Chantry sources completely and I still think it's a bad idea.

What we do know is that the tainted (and only the tainted) can hear the Old God. Why? Why only them? What is the nature of the connection? That is the important question here.

We are TOLD (not confirmed) that they taint it and it the nleads them. What if te Old God is the source of the taint? What if it allways corrupted (as we see it at the end of the game)?

Personally, I tend to belive the Old God is allready controlling the darkspawn at this point.

[Baalzie]

Sialater wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

Damned? Why?
Who says the Old gods means trouble?
Only the Chantry... So uhm... The Elves and Dwarves have no stories about how evil the Old Gods were and they predate the Humans... Strange that eh?
More Chantry lies ofcourse...
Only a brainwashed Chantry Acolyte should think that that child would be a danger to the world... *guess what, Morry is part of the world, she don't want it destroyed either doh!*
High Dragons are stated to be predatory not evil.... Why would the Old Gods be any different?

Pffft.... Why people ALWAYS take the "Ingame christian-type factions" word for everything as absolute truth is mindboggling to me...
And they always think they're "the good guys" aswell... Go figure.... Guess the players from non christianity-dominated parts of the world sees it slightly different...
With "people" I mean a majority... I guess it seems "homely" or some such? ^^
Ahwell... Evil evil chantry...

[Sialater]

Baalzie wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

Damned? Why?
Who says the Old gods means trouble?
Only the Chantry... So uhm... The Elves and Dwarves have no stories about how evil the Old Gods were and they predate the Humans... Strange that eh?
More Chantry lies ofcourse...
Only a brainwashed Chantry Acolyte should think that that child would be a danger to the world... *guess what, Morry is part of the world, she don't want it destroyed either doh!*
High Dragons are stated to be predatory not evil.... Why would the Old Gods be any different?

Pffft.... Why people ALWAYS take the "Ingame christian-type factions" word for everything as absolute truth is mindboggling to me...
And they always think they're "the good guys" aswell... Go figure.... Guess the players from non christianity-dominated parts of the world sees it slightly different...
With "people" I mean a majority... I guess it seems "homely" or some such? ^^
Ahwell... Evil evil chantry...

Uh, wow.... I say something clever and get nailed to the wall for supporting an in-game institution I despise because I MAY be Christian?  Grow up.

I'll have you know, I took the bargain, and I'll probably still take the bargain in almost every playthrough (I may die just for the achievement at some point then reload).  I actually happen to think the consequences are worse in game if you die than if you take the deal. 

But yes, in some cases in the off-chance the Chantry is right (even a broken watch is right twice a day), damned if you do, dead if you don't.  (And I'm not entirely certain you're still not "damned" by having an archdemon's soul melded with yours.)

[Asylumer]

Baalzie wrote...

Damned? Why?

Because there's still some risk involved in the decision. We know Morrigan isn't the best mother in the world and she'll be tempted to use the child's power to her own purposes.

Even in the best scenario I'm sure there will be a lot of damage caused as she attempts to revive the old traditions -- and I'm 100% positive she or the child will come into conflict with the Chantry. People will suffer for your decision. This is the grey morality of Dark Fantasy.

[robertthebard]

Baalzie wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

Damned? Why?
Who says the Old gods means trouble?
Only the Chantry... So uhm... The Elves and Dwarves have no stories about how evil the Old Gods were and they predate the Humans... Strange that eh?
More Chantry lies ofcourse...
Only a brainwashed Chantry Acolyte should think that that child would be a danger to the world... *guess what, Morry is part of the world, she don't want it destroyed either doh!*
High Dragons are stated to be predatory not evil.... Why would the Old Gods be any different?

Pffft.... Why people ALWAYS take the "Ingame christian-type factions" word for everything as absolute truth is mindboggling to me...
And they always think they're "the good guys" aswell... Go figure.... Guess the players from non christianity-dominated parts of the world sees it slightly different...
With "people" I mean a majority... I guess it seems "homely" or some such? ^^
Ahwell... Evil evil chantry...

I actually see it differently, and I live in the Bible Belt of the US.  However, I do see that the one liner you quoted was also tongue in cheek.

[Maconbar]

Asylumer wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

Damned? Why?

Because there's still some risk involved in the decision. We know Morrigan isn't the best mother in the world and she'll be tempted to use the child's power to her own purposes.

Even in the best scenario I'm sure there will be a lot of damage caused as she attempts to revive the old traditions -- and I'm 100% positive she or the child will come into conflict with the Chantry. People will suffer for your decision. This is the grey morality of Dark Fantasy.

The law of unintended consequences ftw.

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Baalzie wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

An "imaginary problem"? Now you're just kidding yourself. If your character did the ritual to save him/herself, then that was their choice, but don't pretend that they did it unaware of very serious reprocussions in the future for Ferelden or for some other country.

It was damned if you do, dead if you don't.

Damned? Why?
Who says the Old gods means trouble?
Only the Chantry... So uhm... The Elves and Dwarves have no stories about how evil the Old Gods were and they predate the Humans... Strange that eh?
More Chantry lies ofcourse...
Only a brainwashed Chantry Acolyte should think that that child would be a danger to the world... *guess what, Morry is part of the world, she don't want it destroyed either doh!*
High Dragons are stated to be predatory not evil.... Why would the Old Gods be any different?

Pffft.... Why people ALWAYS take the "Ingame christian-type factions" word for everything as absolute truth is mindboggling to me...
And they always think they're "the good guys" aswell... Go figure.... Guess the players from non christianity-dominated parts of the world sees it slightly different...
With "people" I mean a majority... I guess it seems "homely" or some such? ^^
Ahwell... Evil evil chantry...

I actually see it differently, and I live in the Bible Belt of the US.  However, I do see that the one liner you quoted was also tongue in cheek.

Yeah, geez.. And here I thought I was being rather clever.  *pouts*

[darkmax1974]

now I see how narrow-minded some people can be...

[Gold Dragon]

And yet, without Morrigan's VERY dark Ritual, one of Thedas' greatest is no longer around. How will Morrigan be stopped then?

[TheMadCat]

Oh, I'm sure Alistair wouldn't have a problem driving a blade across Morrigan's neck.

[Gold Dragon]

TheMadCat wrote...

Oh, I'm sure Alistair wouldn't have a problem driving a blade across Morrigan's neck.

Something that I am quite certain that she knows rather well, and can use that against him.

[Estelindis]

SleepyBird wrote...

I don't think the ritual really IS an option. Turn her down, she still says she's going to go "do what she must" and disappears. Maybe we're denying her the easy way of getting the god-child, but I'm sure she has a back up plan (just one that doesn't save my PC's life).

I get the same feeling as you do, for out-of-game and in-game reasons. 

Out-of-game logic: I'm all for choice with real and serious repercussions in RPGs, but if DA is a trilogy then already having such a huge divergency as demonbaby-or-not at the end of chapter one just seems to make things impossibly unwieldy for the developer during the second and third chapters!  I mean, if, as some speculate, it could mean the difference between two more Blights vs zero to three Blights... that kinda makes a huge difference.  (Or whatever's really going on, I feel like the choice would have a huge impact.)

In-game logic: This wouldn't have been Morrigan's *mission* unless it really mattered.  The fact that she asks you no matter what - if you're lovers, or like sisters, down to the other extreme of mutual contempt, she still makes the offer - shows you that this is one thing where she absolutely will not budge.  This means everything to her.  The fact that she then asks your consent... and simply leaves if you say no... does seem to imply that she has a backup plan.  (Have never totally understood why she tells the truth to a Warden with whom she's in a romantic relationship...  Unless it's for gameplay reasons.  I don't buy "I love you enough to tell you the truth," because no matter how close a female Warden is to her she still thinks it's daft of her to tell Alistair the truth because your character loves him.  Or is it because she values freedom, and wants the choice to be freely made?  Yet I don't get the sense that she'd ever prioritise someone else's freedom over her own, if it came to that.)

Modifié par Estelindis, 22 décembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Kreid]

And here we go again.

People assuming the child will be evil.



Morrigan: "What I seek is the essence of the ancient being it once was not the evil forces that corrupted it"



People deem Morrigan as "evil" while she hasn't ever shown any indicatives of being intrinsically evil out of her own fight for survival, and also deem the child evil for having Urthemiel's soul even though it is clear it's essence will have nothing to do with the Archdemon.



The truth is that we don't really know whether the child will be a saint or a demon so don't jump into conclusions.



Prejudice much?

[Obadiah]

Creid-X wrote...

And here we go again.
People assuming the child will be evil.

Morrigan: "What I seek is the essence of the ancient being it once was not the evil forces that corrupted it"

People deem Morrigan as "evil" while she hasn't ever shown any indicatives of being intrinsically evil out of her own fight for survival, and also deem the child evil for having Urthemiel's soul even though it is clear it's essence will have nothing to do with the Archdemon.

The truth is that we don't really know whether the child will be a saint or a demon so don't jump into conclusions.

Prejudice much?

Uh, didn't someone else in this thread mention Morrigan thought it was a good idea to sacrifice alienage elves in order to get a couple of skill points? Sounds pretty evil to me.

[Estelindis]

Obadiah wrote...
Uh, didn't someone else in this thread mention Morrigan thought it was a good idea to sacrifice alienage elves in order to get a couple of skill points? Sounds pretty evil to me.

That is correct.  Even when you're playing a City Elf Warden and one of those elves is your character's father, she recommends it, and you lose influence if you don't do it.

The closest I can come to "justifying" Morrigan's point of view on this is that, just like when you ask her for her opinion on what to do during the dialogue when the group enters Lothering, she presents a choice.  It may not be a choice that we like, or one that is even useful...  But it is still a choice.  However, the fact that she actively disapproves if you don't sacrifice your father and other elves still sticks in my throat.  (Makes me wonder just how pivotal her mission is, in her view, if every last little scrap of power is important to her, no matter its source!)

[Obadiah]

Estelindis wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Uh, didn't someone else in this thread mention Morrigan thought it was a good idea to sacrifice alienage elves in order to get a couple of skill points? Sounds pretty evil to me.

That is correct.  Even when you're playing a City Elf Warden and one of those elves is your character's father, she recommends it, and you lose influence if you don't do it.

The closest I can come to "justifying" Morrigan's point of view on this is that, just like when you ask her for her opinion on what to do during the dialogue when the group enters Lothering, she presents a choice.  It may not be a choice that we like, or one that is even useful...  But it is still a choice.  However, the fact that she actively disapproves if you don't sacrifice your father and other elves still sticks in my throat.  (Makes me wonder just how pivotal her mission is, in her view, if every last little scrap of power is important to her, no matter its source!)

Guess I'm glad that I had Wynne with me instead on that run.

[Estelindis]

Obadiah wrote...
Guess I'm glad that I had Wynne with me instead on that run.

I had both of them, actually, and wanted to slap the pair of them for their reactions (ye actually think there's even a remote chance my character will do this?! - do you know her at all?).  But from then on, when replaying the game with that character and trying some things differently, I wouldn't do that mission without Morrigan for the world, even with the disapproval hit.  I find it very difficult to roleplay my character's choices at the end of the game without having seen that about Morrigan.  I felt it was that pivotal.

[Squiggles1334]

Estelindis wrote...
Out-of-game logic: I'm all for choice with real and serious repercussions in RPGs, but if DA is a trilogy

multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/02/11/why-dragon-age-isnt-a-trilogy/

I know, already been posted in this thread, but it really ought to be repeated every couple of pages.

[TheMadCat]

Yeah, not sure where this trilogy thing originated from but as far as I know it's never even been hinted at. DLC is confirmed, sequels and perhaps expansions are inevitable but aside from that nothing really there to even support the possibility.

[sagefic]

I dunno, while I'm glad it *was* optional, I can't wait to see how this plays out in a sequel. Either it will



A. be nothing (which would be very lame)



B. be some side quest you might get "oh, yeah, that boss in that cave there is some old god thing"



C. be some huge part of the game



Granted, Morrigan does go to orlais, but it's not like there's some other archdemon waiting. so i think it ought to be C, but i have no idea how they plan to play that out.

[ShadowAldrius]

sagequeen wrote...

I dunno, while I'm glad it *was* optional, I can't wait to see how this plays out in a sequel. Either it will

A. be nothing (which would be very lame)

B. be some side quest you might get "oh, yeah, that boss in that cave there is some old god thing"

C. be some huge part of the game

Granted, Morrigan does go to orlais, but it's not like there's some other archdemon waiting. so i think it ought to be C, but i have no idea how they plan to play that out.

I imagine it'll be somewhere between B and C.

My pet theory on the game has always been that the expansion/sequel/the next major storyline would focus on a war between Flemeth (either in a new body after you killed her or simply in the Kate Mulgrew-voiced body if you spared her/never did the side quest) and the Empress of Orlais and the Chantry. (It's headquarters being in Orlais.)

This is getting into the realm of a crazy fan theory but my personal opinion is that Flemeth is a reborn Archdemon (she can transfer from body to body just like the Archdemon, but she shows no signs of taint and she's mortal, or at least her body is), much in the same way that Morrigan's potential child will be. Her goal is to re-establish the old god religion and destroy the Chantry as part of her revenge. (Or just to eradicate a powerful enemy.)

In that vein, having a second reborn old god to help her is a potential boon to Flemeth (or Morrigan, if she feels she's inherited her mother's mission), but not entirely necessary. In that way, the plot could play out without the child, but it could play out differently if the child is there, and it could play out VERY differently if it's Alistair's child or the Grey Warden's child. It would heighten the drama, but the overall plot structure would be the same. (Flemeth does battle with the Chantry.)

In essence Morrigan's child wouldn't be a subplot, but it wouldn't be a totally necessary aspect of the main plot either. It'd be like if you spare Loghain at the landsmeet. The plot plays out VERY differently from that point forward. And Alistair is likely not involved at all. But the plot itself is basically the same with some differences as far as the details are concerned.

Honestly, this is fairly baseless speculation, but I think there's some merit in there somewhere.

[Obadiah]

ShadowAldrius wrote...
Honestly, this is fairly baseless speculation, but I think there's some merit in there somewhere.

I agree (in a purely fan-speculative way, mind you). I think Orlais is the current seat of the Tevinter Mages, who used the Old Gods last time. Maybe that's who Morrigan is taking the demon-child to.

[Kreid]

Obadiah wrote...
Uh, didn't someone else in this thread mention Morrigan thought it was a good idea to sacrifice alienage elves in order to get a couple of skill points? Sounds pretty evil to me.

Depends on the point of view, she is saying it would be useful to do it because there's a benefit for the Warden in doing so, which will directly help you in your quest, of course it does not compute with most people morality (as most of Morrigan's choices) but she isn't just lusting to kill them or doing it without a reason, she is simply being practical within her own reasoning, if sacrificing the elves can directly help you save the rest of Ferelden by making you stronger and more able to battle the Darkspawn, it is worth it.
It's not very different from the anvil of the void, Morrigan wants you to keep it functional even though it will enslave souls to create the Golems because it will make you stronger agains the Blight.

Maybe within your own morality, you cannot approve her methods or find it despicable but  that doesn't make her evil per se, I for one do not agree with her in that choice but I do not consider her evil because of it, now, if she was suggesting to kill them for the lulz or if she showed actual pleasure in killing them (which she doesn't unlike some of the other "good" party members) I'd consider her evil, IMO she's just being practical on her own way, in a "the end justify the means" kind of mentality.

Modifié par Creid-X, 22 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[Sialater]

Uh.... just saying it's not a trilogy doesn't keep it from being a series.



Dunno about y'all, but I the last card I got was that my adventures were far from over. Jade Empire, the last true standalone I played, wrapped things up without that blurb.