343 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Drakron wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Although one wonders how they did come up with the recipie, it's discussed nowhere in game.

Well we do know about Mabari hounds, I think their basic idea was the same ...if the hounds could survive the taint and became immune then why the same could not happen to humans?

I guess the other side effects were not expected, they just wanted taint immune soldiers.

I'd go for this, but for the Archdemon blood component, and the lyrium that's supposed to be needed.  Even after a few play throughs, I'm not sure what making the actual concoction entails, just what we can pick up from Riordan.  The whole thing is a big problem to me, if I think about it at all.

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ok, so how can you infer anything but immediately from that?  We do know it's not a normal baby, it's conceived by magic.  So far as we know, it's a soulless husk, waiting for the soul of the Old God.  What information we do have indicates that having a soul means that the Old God would be destroyed, hence Grey Wardens taking the killing blow.  That's the only difference between any of the regular darkspawn and a Grey Warden, and we get this information from Riordan just before we talk to Morrigan.

.... yes, it's a husk, which Morrigan does not think will be a proper 'child'; beyond that, we know nothing. I was just saying that just because it's not tainted, doesn't mean you have any idea what it is going to be. Morrigan's not exactly specific on the matter.
I would disagree that the only difference between a Grey Warden and darkspawn is the ability to destroy an Old God.. but in any case I'm not sure what your point there is.

Riordan explains to us that anyone can kill an archdemon.  However, if there isn't a Grey Warden present when it happens, the Old God's soul jumps to the nearest tainted body.  Darkspawn are soulless, according to the lore we have available, so no conflict of ownership of the body, and the Old God is essentially reborn, in a tainted darkspawn, making the Archdemon immortal.  However, Grey Wardens have souls, so when the Archdemon jumps into a Grey Warden, both are destroyed.  This is why Wardens are needed to stop blights.

[Drakron]

So how they got the blood in the first place? Its not as if the first Archdemon was a blood donor and they raided the Darkspawn Blood Bank.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ok, so how can you infer anything but immediately from that?  We do know it's not a normal baby, it's conceived by magic.  So far as we know, it's a soulless husk, waiting for the soul of the Old God.  What information we do have indicates that having a soul means that the Old God would be destroyed, hence Grey Wardens taking the killing blow.  That's the only difference between any of the regular darkspawn and a Grey Warden, and we get this information from Riordan just before we talk to Morrigan.

.... yes, it's a husk, which Morrigan does not think will be a proper 'child'; beyond that, we know nothing. I was just saying that just because it's not tainted, doesn't mean you have any idea what it is going to be. Morrigan's not exactly specific on the matter.
I would disagree that the only difference between a Grey Warden and darkspawn is the ability to destroy an Old God.. but in any case I'm not sure what your point there is.

Riordan explains to us that anyone can kill an archdemon.  However, if there isn't a Grey Warden present when it happens, the Old God's soul jumps to the nearest tainted body.  Darkspawn are soulless, according to the lore we have available, so no conflict of ownership of the body, and the Old God is essentially reborn, in a tainted darkspawn, making the Archdemon immortal.  However, Grey Wardens have souls, so when the Archdemon jumps into a Grey Warden, both are destroyed.  This is why Wardens are needed to stop blights.

Yeah, I caught that from playing the game :b And?

[ImNotTrent]

only one of my characters have refused Morrigan's deal, and then it was Loghain who sacrificed himself. a couple of them have thought, that yes, it is noble and the right thing to do, yet that survival instinct kicked in, and at the last moment, all the noble and grand ideas of dying for your nation flew out the window when the option presented itself.

[Bullets McDeath]

I believe it's mentioned the Archdemon blood is kept in the GW compound in Denerim. Don't know if it ever states where they got it... presumably they make a point of saving some each time they defeat an Archdemon? There have been four after all, and you probably don't need more than a few drops...

[eschilde]

Drakron wrote...

So how they got the blood in the first place? Its not as if the first Archdemon was a blood donor and they raided the Darkspawn Blood Bank.

It's not straight up explained, as far as I know, but I have read forum speculation that the archdemon was killed before appearing in another body. The order wasn't created until after the death of the first archdemon, so I assume they still had access to the first body.. I guess.

Modifié par eschilde, 20 décembre 2009 - 07:11 .

[MiG-77]

outlaworacle wrote...


Yeah, that's my main point. Having the devil baby is one thing, but alot of people seem to think we'll be playing as the devil baby, which is not just a terrible idea, but... then you can't play elves or dwarves and even with a bit of variation as to who your daddy is, it's one basically static Origin for all characters. I don't think Bioware would backpedal that far in terms of game design.

I thnk baby just is in the story of next sequl (IE you need help from him/her to get acces to golden/black city, etc).

[robertthebard]

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

eschilde wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Ok, so how can you infer anything but immediately from that?  We do know it's not a normal baby, it's conceived by magic.  So far as we know, it's a soulless husk, waiting for the soul of the Old God.  What information we do have indicates that having a soul means that the Old God would be destroyed, hence Grey Wardens taking the killing blow.  That's the only difference between any of the regular darkspawn and a Grey Warden, and we get this information from Riordan just before we talk to Morrigan.

.... yes, it's a husk, which Morrigan does not think will be a proper 'child'; beyond that, we know nothing. I was just saying that just because it's not tainted, doesn't mean you have any idea what it is going to be. Morrigan's not exactly specific on the matter.
I would disagree that the only difference between a Grey Warden and darkspawn is the ability to destroy an Old God.. but in any case I'm not sure what your point there is.

Riordan explains to us that anyone can kill an archdemon.  However, if there isn't a Grey Warden present when it happens, the Old God's soul jumps to the nearest tainted body.  Darkspawn are soulless, according to the lore we have available, so no conflict of ownership of the body, and the Old God is essentially reborn, in a tainted darkspawn, making the Archdemon immortal.  However, Grey Wardens have souls, so when the Archdemon jumps into a Grey Warden, both are destroyed.  This is why Wardens are needed to stop blights.

Yeah, I caught that from playing the game :b And?

OK, not sure what you're looking for here?  Fortune telling?  We don't know a lot of things.  Will Morrigan run afoul of bandits and die?  It's not very likely, but possible.  Will she die in child birth, and the child soon after?  Again, not likely, but possible.  The point being we don't know what's going to happen, and just because we don't know what's going to happen doesn't mean it's going to be evil, or good.  We simply don't know, and all the mental gymnastics in the world won't tell us, until it comes out in a story line somewhere.  If it does.  It's just as likely that we never know what happens there as it is that, as some have predicted in other topics concerning this, it becomes another archdemon and starts another blight.

Condemning the ritual based on what we know, or defending it based on what we know is all based purely on speculation, since beyond the fact that Morrigan gets pregnant, and no Grey Wardens die when the Archdemon is slain, we don't know anything.

[eschilde]

robertthebard wrote...

Condemning the ritual based on what we know, or defending it based on what we know is all based purely on speculation, since beyond the fact that Morrigan gets pregnant, and no Grey Wardens die when the Archdemon is slain, we don't know anything.

Huh, guess we're in agreement then. Glad we had this discussion. 

[SarEnyaDor]

Actually, the conversation was originally not about the action itself, but about the OP thinking that the action should have been unavoidable under all circumstances, which was a fail if ever I saw one.

[Obadiah]

Double post

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:55 .

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

So the sins of the followers are actually caused by the Gods they follow? 

Yes. The Old Gods enabled them, and, as gods, we can only assume that they knew what they were doing.

robertthebard wrote...
Is any religion redeemable then?  After all, more blood is spilled in the name of one god or another than for any other reason.

You probably have to judge that on a case by case basis. In this case after what they did, would you really want to? I certainly don't.

robertthebard wrote...

We don't know why the Old Gods taught what they taught.  We just know they did.  However, simply dismissing a whole religion as evil isn't justified because of what the followers do with those teachings.
...

Yes it is. In some absolute how-can-I-judge-this-when-I-don't-know-everyone's-intentions "no," but given the information we have, "yes."

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[robertthebard]

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So the sins of the followers are actually caused by the Gods they follow? 

Yes. The Old Gods enabled them, and, as gods, we can only assume that they knew what they were doing.

robertthebard wrote...
Is any religion redeemable then?  After all, more blood is spilled in the name of one god or another than for any other reason.

You probably have to judge that on a case by case basis. In this case after what they did, would you really want to? I certainly don't.

robertthebard wrote...

We don't know why the Old Gods taught what they taught.  We just know they did.  However, simply dismissing a whole religion as evil isn't justified because of what the followers do with those teachings.
...

Yes it is. In some absolute how-can-I-judge-this-when-I-don't-know-everyone's-intentions "no," but in any kind of realistic context of uncertainly, "yes."

Are you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.  "Convert to our religion or die"....Absolute positions have consequences, and as I said in that really snipped post, if we are going to judge all the followers of a religion based on a few, then there are no redeemable religions.  You stated the exact same thing as I did.  So no religions are redeemable?

[Relshar]

Obadiah wrote...

GammaRayJim wrote...

I finished the game twice choosing to sleep with her in one and turn her down in the other. The epilogue in the one that I turned her down in stated that she was last seen crossing the Frostback mountains she was heavy with child. That same as in the one where I choose to sleep with her. Sorry guys I think this is a done deal for any future DLC, exp or sequels.

When you don't take the deal at the end, but romance Morrigan anyway, it says she is pregnant and something like, "regardless, no ritual was performed so blah blah blah..." I forget the exact wording.

Not always the case. i had one epilouge where she is rumoured to be a advisor to an Orlisian Empress and no mention of a child.

[druidofwarp]

Never will not pick the Dark Ritual, except for the sacrifice achievements. Here I am giving everything for the world that has given nothing to me, is it too much to ask that me and my companions can live. Plus I wanted to continue the Morrigan storyline and get my PC a lay before he fights the archdemon.



But yeah as said before there is no right or wrong way to do this, were all just making a hypothesis



Also you cannot really judge a religion by the actions of a few of its followers as robert said. Unless you know that the tenets of said religion calls for evil things to be done. Then again this may also be relative evil based on your beliefs.

[TheMadCat]

Never will not pick the Dark Ritual, except for the sacrifice achievements. Here I am giving everything for the world that has given nothing to me, is it too much to ask that me and my companions can live. Plus I wanted to continue the Morrigan storyline and get my PC a lay before he fights the archdemon.

The way I looked at it was there was no way letting Morrigan have a child that had the essence of an old God would end even remotely good. The BEST case scenario in my mind would have been the Darkspawn getting to the child and tainting it creating turning it back into an Archdemon and creating another blight, since they apparently have the ability to sense out the essence of the old Gods. Lord knows what Morrigan and/or Flemeth would do with that child. It was either die, let Alistair die, or go through this hell again or maybe even worse in a few years and die anyways.



It's like the ultimate lose-lose situation.

[tallon1982]

I actually thought the idea of the old god child was rather intriguing. The reason why is because it's sort of a way to redeem the old god's. Sort of a repentance if you will. Morrigan has no love for the darkspawn so what better way to get back at them by getting the soul of an old god? Raise the child to learn it's power and thus you have a weapon against the Blight to where Grey Wardens have an ally who has been there and done that. I could see that being a story line. Perhaps the child could still be conceived with a Grey Warden still dying. We know very little of how far magic can go afterall. The old gods were mages I though or I could be mistaken there, and yet they were able to infiltrate the Maker's own city. It's just a thought that's probably already been said elsewhere.

[druidofwarp]

TheMadCat wrote...

Never will not pick the Dark Ritual, except for the sacrifice achievements. Here I am giving everything for the world that has given nothing to me, is it too much to ask that me and my companions can live. Plus I wanted to continue the Morrigan storyline and get my PC a lay before he fights the archdemon.

The way I looked at it was there was no way letting Morrigan have a child that had the essence of an old God would end even remotely good. The BEST case scenario in my mind would have been the Darkspawn getting to the child and tainting it creating turning it back into an Archdemon and creating another blight, since they apparently have the ability to sense out the essence of the old Gods. Lord knows what Morrigan and/or Flemeth would do with that child. It was either die, let Alistair die, or go through this hell again or maybe even worse in a few years and die anyways.

It's like the ultimate lose-lose situation.

Killed the Barney-colored zombie dragon once I'll do it again.

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

Are you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.

I know plenty of nice Christians to not condemn the entire religion. I know plenty of nice whatever-religion in the real world actually.

I don't know anything good about the Tevinter Magisters or their religion. Do you? What I do know is that a tainted Old God is trying to destroy my country, and untainted they were the source of the corruption in the first place. Resurrecting one with no purpose other than to free it and preserve it sounds bad.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[TheNecroFiend]

SleepyBird wrote...

I don't think the ritual really IS an option. Turn her down, she still says she's going to go "do what she must" and disappears. Maybe we're denying her the easy way of getting the god-child, but I'm sure she has a back up plan (just one that doesn't save my PC's life).

Doubtfull. Considering that when you turn her down and kill the Archdemon there is a huge release of enrgy which kills the archdemon and takes the warden to. If she had succeded the warden who delivered the killing blow wouldn't have been slain by the destruction of the Old Gods soul. And remember this ritual was not her plan in the first place. It was Flemenths, she was the one who put it all together. Morrigan was just pawn, to sex the available warden. There is no indication that there was an alternative way to transfer the Old Gods soul.

[TheNecroFiend]

Are you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.  "Convert to our religion or die"....Absolute positions have consequences, and as I said in that really snipped post, if we are going to judge all the followers of a religion based on a few, then there are no redeemable religions.  You stated the exact same thing as I did.  So no religions are redeemable?

Untill they stop preying on peoples ignorance and fears and using their delusions to influence how the world works I will say yes.

[druidofwarp]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Are you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.  "Convert to our religion or die"....Absolute positions have consequences, and as I said in that really snipped post, if we are going to judge all the followers of a religion based on a few, then there are no redeemable religions.  You stated the exact same thing as I did.  So no religions are redeemable?

Untill they stop preying on peoples ignorance and fears and using their delusions to influence how the world works I will say yes.

It's actually quite ignorant of you to call all practitioners of any religion ignorant and fearful. Most of those deluded religious folk have made more of an impact on the world than you ever will.

Modifié par druidofwarp, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:01 .

[robertthebard]

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Are you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.

I know plenty of nice Christians to not condemn the entire religion. I know plenty of nice whatever-religion in the real world actually.

I don't know anything good about the Tevinter Magisters or their religion. Do you? What I do know is that a tainted Old God is trying to destroy my country, and untainted they were the source of the corruption in the first place. Resurrecting one with no purpose other than to free it and preserve it sounds bad.

No, I don't.  So that means I should just condemn everyone that is from the area, just because all I know about are the evil ones?  The only real evidence I have of that comes directly from the Chantry.  Given their desire to completely control all mages, and their tendency to make slaves out of their Templars through lyrium addiction, do I really want to consider them a viable source for all my information?  Even the opening story says mages from the Imperium, not the whole of the Imperium, unless your position is that all of the Imperium are mages?  We certainly have evidence to the contrary on that.

So no, we should not jump to the assumption that the Old Gods were "evil" because some of their followers were.  I mean, does every Christian in the world hold to the beliefs of Rev Phelps?  You know, the guy that will crash military funerals protesting.

[TheNecroFiend]

druidofwarp wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

Are
you sure you want to stand by that?  Because if you do, then all
Christians are evil due to the Inquisition.  "Convert to our religion
or die"....Absolute positions have consequences, and as I said in that
really snipped post, if we are going to judge all the followers of a
religion based on a few, then there are no redeemable religions.  You
stated the exact same thing as I did.  So no religions are
redeemable?

Untill they stop preying on peoples
ignorance and fears and using their delusions to influence how the
world works I will say yes.

It's actually quite
ignorant of you to call all practitioners of any religion ignorant and
fearful. Most of those deluded religious folk have made more of an
impact on the world than you ever will.

Not  really. If there is no truth to their claims. Then is no reason to follow whatever they dictate. Just look at the Chantry and how they have made a mess of Ferelden. Mages and elves all suffer because of that belife system. The majority of the Chantries followers are deluded fools.

Modifié par TheNecroFiend, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:05 .