343 réponses à ce sujet

[druidofwarp]

TheNecroFiend wrote...


Not  really. If there is no truth to their claims. Then is no reason to follow whatever they dictate. Just look at the Chantry and how they have made a mess of Ferelden. Mages and elves all suffer because of that belife system. The majority of the Chantries followers are deluded fools.

Really? Disprove what Chantry has said. Mages suffer? How about everyone suffers when they become abominations with no one to stop them. Chantry hates Elves? Who freed the Elves? Andraste. Elves suffer from racisim not a religion.

Wynne a very powerful and wise mage is a deluded fool because she does not have you beliefs? How does that argument make sense?

[TheMadCat]

Killed the Barney-colored zombie dragon once I'll do it again.

That's one way of looking at it I suppose. Personally I like to put myself in my characters shoes when it comes to those major decisions. Is a few extra years of life really worth suffering going through that hell again? I didn't feel as if it was.

Doubtfull. Considering that when you turn her down and kill the Archdemon there is a huge release of enrgy which kills the archdemon and takes the warden to. If she had succeded the warden who delivered the killing blow wouldn't have been slain by the destruction of the Old Gods soul. And remember this ritual was not her plan in the first place. It was Flemenths, she was the one who put it all together. Morrigan was just pawn, to sex the available warden. There is no indication that there was an alternative way to transfer the Old Gods soul.

Like I said earlier both of those bases are pretty much covered. There was a third male Grey Warden there and reality is no one truly knows what happens to the essence of an old God after it kills the Grey Warden. It's assumed the essence is also destroyed, but it's possible it could linger within the corpse, perhaps she was able to take it from the corpse of the Grey Warden, perhaps she was able to save part of the essence. It's never really clear what the essence even is. Is it it's soul, it's power, it's taint. Without knowing exactly what it is it's hard to say what can possibly happen.



Nothing is really conclusive on the nature of the ritual, on the essence itself, nothing. Like I said she could have laid with Riordin and none of us even know, turned into a bird and flew to the top of the fort behind a ruined wall did her mojo and flew off and no one be the wiser. She did seem to want it rather bad, and considering there was a clear third option just down the room there I find it hard to believe she chose to pass it up knowing how closely she regards her agendas and power.

[GammaRayJim]

Recently read a fantasy trilogy "The Age of Misrule" by Mark Chadbourne. In it the old Celtic gods return to modern time. One of the themes that ran through this series was the idea that most of these gods were totally indifferent to humankind and that they were so far above us that our concepts of good and evil were irrelevant to them. To them there was no such thing as good or evil there were only actions and all actions have consequences. We categorize those consequences as either good or bad but from different points of view both could apply. IMO I think that the same could apply to almost any god, to know the mind of a god I don't think that a mortal could truly comprehend such a thing. Just some thoughts on the topic and once again my opinion only.

[TheNecroFiend]

druidofwarp wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...


Not  really. If there is no truth to their claims. Then is no reason to follow whatever they dictate. Just look at the Chantry and how they have made a mess of Ferelden. Mages and elves all suffer because of that belife system. The majority of the Chantries followers are deluded fools.

Really? Disprove what Chantry has said. Mages suffer? How about everyone suffers when they become abominations with no one to stop them. Chantry hates Elves? Who freed the Elves? Andraste. Elves suffer from racisim not a religion.

Wynne a very powerful and wise mage is a deluded fool because she does not have you beliefs? How does that argument make sense?

The chantry view non-humans as lessers who need saving. They have sold the people that elves and dwarves are less then human and who need to be converted to followers of the maker. They will not stop untill the chantries belife system is accepted by all. This helps enable the humans dismissive view of the other races. As for mages the Chantry preys on the ignorance of the people to make them fearfull of mages. Which has created an enviroment where mages are second class citizens forced to live in a cage. One wrong step and the Chantry reserves the right kill them.

[Daithin]

I'm a novice writer, and as a novice I can tell you you don't dangle that major kind of plot crux in front of your reader or player and not follow through.
The god child is probably inevitable. The only difference is, its either the PC's, Alistair's, or Rioden/Loghain. I put nothing above or beyond Morrigan, so getting this child regardless of if you agree or not probably isn't that big of an issue.

Modifié par Daithin, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:27 .

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...

No, I don't.  So that means I should just condemn everyone that is from the area, just because all I know about are the evil ones?  The only real evidence I have of that comes directly from the Chantry.  Given their desire to completely control all mages, and their tendency to make slaves out of their Templars through lyrium addiction, do I really want to consider them a viable source for all my information?  Even the opening story says mages from the Imperium, not the whole of the Imperium, unless your position is that all of the Imperium are mages?  We certainly have evidence to the contrary on that.

So no, we should not jump to the assumption that the Old Gods were "evil" because some of their followers were.  I mean, does every Christian in the world hold to the beliefs of Rev Phelps?  You know, the guy that will crash military funerals protesting.

Well, I think you making two different arguments there. First, "yes," I'm not omnipotent, so I have to go by what information I have. If all I knew of Christianity was bad, then I would probably judge (or "condemn") it as evil. I probably wouldn't invade or take any action unless some was taken against me.

But back to the game: don't you think that you're reaching just little bit here just to justify the potential innocence or goodness of the Old Gods? Everything we know about them is bad - REALLY BAD. Do you really think it's a feasable position to take that one should be resurrected (and given to morally questionable if not evil Morrigan) because maybe it might not be bad?

[tallon1982]

It really makes you wonder if Morrigan was telling the whole truth about not being able to shapeshift into another human doesn't it?

Modifié par tallon1982, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[TheMadCat]

tallon1982 wrote...

It really makes you wonder if Morrigan was telling the whole truth about not being able to shapeshift into another human doesn't it?

I don't think anything Morrigan said was the truth honestly so I wouldn't be surprised in the least if she had the capability shift her appearance to that of another human. That's an awful big advantage and not something she would divulge easily to anyone.

[druidofwarp]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

The chantry view non-humans as lessers who need saving. They have sold the people that elves and dwarves are less then human and who need to be converted to followers of the maker. They will not stop untill the chantries belife system is accepted by all. This helps enable the humans dismissive view of the other races. As for mages the Chantry preys on the ignorance of the people to make them fearfull of mages. Which has created an enviroment where mages are second class citizens forced to live in a cage. One wrong step and the Chantry reserves the right kill them.

I never got the impression they felt they were lessers, but that they do need saving due to their "pagan" beliefs. Honestly I've never encountered once in the game/codex where the Chantry treated the elves/dwarves as inferior to humans. They war with them but this is because of religious differences. The Chantry wants converts of all races, and even will go to war to protect them as with Brother Burkel.The Chantry by no means enables the racism against elves, the priestess in the city elf origin tries to stop Vaughn but is powerless to do anything to a lord. It is more affected by the prior racism of its faithful than it affects their racism.

As for the mages, there are legitimate reasons to watch over them. Abominations and Blood Magic and the like. Although they do reserve the right to kill them, it is not arbitrary. Getting the rite of annulment takes alot of time and a damn good reason to ask for it.

Edit: In Tevinter mages are widely respected and given positions of power, and they are Andrastian. So its not as general as you think

Modifié par druidofwarp, 20 décembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[darkmax1974]

Daithin wrote...

I'm a novice writer, and as a novice I can tell you you don't dangle that major kind of plot crux in front of your reader or player and not follow through.
The god child is probably inevitable. The only difference is, its either the PC's, Alistair's, or Rioden/Loghain. I put nothing above or beyond Morrigan, so getting this child regardless of if you agree or not probably isn't that big of an issue.

I'm in marketing, and I agree with you. It simply is too big a featured plot not to use it all up. All the decisions are irrelevant. This part of the story arc have to be a part of the sequel, or it will be a major waste.

And EA is not simply going to let it go, if Bioware does not continue it. Let's all pray not. EA will spoil the soup.

[robertthebard]

Obadiah wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

No, I don't.  So that means I should just condemn everyone that is from the area, just because all I know about are the evil ones?  The only real evidence I have of that comes directly from the Chantry.  Given their desire to completely control all mages, and their tendency to make slaves out of their Templars through lyrium addiction, do I really want to consider them a viable source for all my information?  Even the opening story says mages from the Imperium, not the whole of the Imperium, unless your position is that all of the Imperium are mages?  We certainly have evidence to the contrary on that.

So no, we should not jump to the assumption that the Old Gods were "evil" because some of their followers were.  I mean, does every Christian in the world hold to the beliefs of Rev Phelps?  You know, the guy that will crash military funerals protesting.

Well, I think you making two different arguments there. First, "yes," I'm not omnipotent, so I have to go by what information I have. If all I knew of Christianity was bad, then I would probably judge (or "condemn") it as evil. I probably wouldn't invade or take any action unless some was taken against me.

But back to the game: don't you think that you're reaching just little bit here just to justify the potential innocence or goodness of the Old Gods? Everything we know about them is bad - REALLY BAD. Do you really think it's a feasable position to take that one should be resurrected (and given to morally questionable if not evil Morrigan) because maybe it might not be bad?

Actually no.  Because I'm not killing an Old God, I'm killing an Archdemon, and this isn't just semantics.  An Archdemon is a corrupted Old God.  We can see what the taint does to people through the game.  Ruck, for instance, or Tamlen.  We have no knowledge of what the Old Gods were like, and fighting the Archdemon doesn't give us any insight.  So while you may say I'm reaching to say it's not evil, you are definitely reaching to say it is.  Because neither of us know.  As I said earlier in this conversation, we won't know anything about the nature of this child unless it comes into play in a sequel or something down the line.  Until then, any discussion is purely speculation, since we don't have any information.

The choice on the ritual comes down to are you willing to sacrifice yourself, or a companion to stop the Blight, or do you want to save yourself and your companion.  Other than this, all the other choices and convuluted arguments that get thrown around are mental masturbation.

[kraidy1117]

If BW makes a DAO2, they will most likely use the sacerfice ending since it's more easy to work with it. The sacerfice ending feels like the story is finshed, while the ritual just opens too many doors (anyone remember Daggerfal and how realy difficutl it was to make Morrowind) I can see there being a huge expansion for the events after the ritual, since David Gaider has poked at this alot, but as for DAO2 they will likey use the sacerfice ending and focus on a new threat (Quirni invading anyone?)

[Obadiah]

robertthebard wrote...
As I said earlier in this conversation, we won't know anything about the nature of this child unless it comes into play in a sequel or something down the line.  Until then, any discussion is purely speculation, since we don't have any information.

Well, sure, but I think you're really supposed to engage in a little of that when you consider giving Morrigan power over an untainted Old God.

[robertthebard]

If I was all that concerned about Morrigan, I should have tried to turn her into the Templars. In the game where I did do the ritual, I had no reason not to trust her. In fact, in the games where I refuse her, I had no reason not to trust her, but I had other plans. I personally like Morrigan as a character. She's direct, and can be quite blunt. My kind of girl in real life. My last girl friend was a body builder, and I could trust her at my back in a bar fight. Morrigan reminds me a lot of her.

[LynxAQ]

TheMadCat wrote...

Like I said earlier both of those bases are pretty much covered. There was a third male Grey Warden there and reality is no one truly knows what happens to the essence of an old God after it kills the Grey Warden. It's assumed the essence is also destroyed, but it's possible it could linger within the corpse, perhaps she was able to take it from the corpse of the Grey Warden, perhaps she was able to save part of the essence.

 
Without sounding to horrible, that is a really silly comment. You slayed the arch demon and your companions just left your body lying cold on the floor whilst they went for lunch?? Sorry but once you decline the ritual, Morrigan has no way of getting close, and NO she couldnt finish the ritual in some bird form, that is getting silly and if the lore did take that pathetic route, I am stating now I will not support it.

If you decline the ritual, Morrigan doesnt have a god child - simple really. There is really no convincing argument to make me think otherwise atm. Otherwise there would not have been the Orlais and not pregnant epilogue in the game.

It's never really clear what the essence even is. Is it it's soul, it's power, it's taint. Without knowing exactly what it is it's hard to say what can possibly happen.

Actually its said quite clearly its the soul.

But as there is, the choice is ours and thankfully this BG wannabe story plot is old and played. Please Bioware, the whole god child story is tired and needs to be retired, do not go down this path again. I mean we don't need a BG wannabe sequel thanks.

[TheNecroFiend]

druidofwarp wrote...

TheNecroFiend wrote...

The chantry view non-humans as lessers who need saving. They have sold the people that elves and dwarves are less then human and who need to be converted to followers of the maker. They will not stop untill the chantries belife system is accepted by all. This helps enable the humans dismissive view of the other races. As for mages the Chantry preys on the ignorance of the people to make them fearfull of mages. Which has created an enviroment where mages are second class citizens forced to live in a cage. One wrong step and the Chantry reserves the right kill them.

I never got the impression they felt they were lessers, but that they do need saving due to their "pagan" beliefs. Honestly I've never encountered once in the game/codex where the Chantry treated the elves/dwarves as inferior to humans. They war with them but this is because of religious differences. The Chantry wants converts of all races, and even will go to war to protect them as with Brother Burkel.The Chantry by no means enables the racism against elves, the priestess in the city elf origin tries to stop Vaughn but is powerless to do anything to a lord. It is more affected by the prior racism of its faithful than it affects their racism.

As for the mages, there are legitimate reasons to watch over them. Abominations and Blood Magic and the like. Although they do reserve the right to kill them, it is not arbitrary. Getting the rite of annulment takes alot of time and a damn good reason to ask for it.

Edit: In Tevinter mages are widely respected and given positions of power, and they are Andrastian. So its not as general as you think

Remember that the games codex are written as if they are taken from the Chantrys own texts. Alot of the entries show a deliberate bias which mimics what you would expect to see come from a religious organization. The elves that are allowed to live in the alinages must convert. They live as slaves/second class citizens because that is the way the Chantry wishes to keep them. The Priestess does voice her objection to rape but she still participates in the Chantrys system of control. You even admited yourself that the Chantry wages war on the non-humans because of their religous beliefs. Faith at the tip of a sword how is that not wrong?

The chantry has made sure to blur the line between apostate and malificar to fuel the peoples fear of magic. Part of the Chantrys teachings is that "man must rule over magic, never magic over man." This is the action of a beaurocracy that does not share power. This is why there is so much fear of blood magic.

The Chantry claims the Maker exists. The Chantry claims to speak for the Maker. Yet within game lore the existence of the Maker is pretty ambiguos. There is no suffecent reason in game to belive that anything the Chantry says is true. As such they peddle in fear and ignorance. And cater to delusion. But this all off topic anyways.

[robertthebard]

Actually, the Chant, as written by Andraste says that Magic exists to serve man, not rule over him. This is how the Chant is written, and this is the second "verse" of the chant. Persecuting somebody because of their religion, or because they are religious is bad. Not all followers of a religion will adhere strictly to the teachings, and while I take everything the Chantry writes with a grain of salt, until we have other evidence, all we have is their word, and our conscience to follow.



Andraste wasn't fighting to specifically free the elves either. They did rise up with her, but as you learn in the Gauntlet, they did so because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The end result was that the elves were free for centuries in the Dales, until the Chantry declared an Exalted March on them for not allowing them to build a Chantry in their lands. Leliana will tell you stories about this in camp as well. It's really the easiest way for me to obtain information in game, because I love listening to her talk. If you take her stories, and the codex entries you can find about these subjects, you can bet the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Herr Uhl]

Andraste did *not* start the chantry btw. It was started a good time after her death by some Orlesian dudes I think.



And through the course of centuries, the chant of light might have been tweaked a bit to fit their purposes.

[TheNecroFiend]

Heh, I couldn't remember the actual words. But it's the same idea. As for religious persecution in the city elf codex the chanrty made it clear that they had to adopt the Chantrys belife system out of the goodness of their heart. And then goes on to paint the elves as monsters who would be best to live under human rule.

[robertthebard]

No doubt. However, it's what we have. Kinda like Christians following the Bible,and I always butcher this, the Quran for Muslims. All they can go on is what's in it. So deeply religious people will believe it without question, while the rest of the world may indeed take a different view, or simply be apathetic about it.

[totertot]

It's definitely interesting to think about. I feel, like the OP, that there were a ton of compelling reasons to do the ritual. It would be hard to play the game without romancing at least one character, and Morrigan uses that reasoning against you when you decide whether to do "it" or not, ha ha.

It seems like too big of a plot point and/or launch point for DA2, or an expansion, to leave up to the player's discretion. It could make an entire game plot in and of itself! I guess I don't have a lot to add to the conversation, other than to say, yea wow, where will they go from there?

[TheNecroFiend]

My objection to the ritual was a pratical one. Blights are dependant on the corrutption of a Old God.  Four down three to go. There was no way I was going to spare it. Espically when it was someone like Flemeth who cooked it up. Better the devil you know then the devil you don't and all that jazz.

[Maconbar]

tallon1982 wrote...

It really makes you wonder if Morrigan was telling the whole truth about not being able to shapeshift into another human doesn't it?

I think its safe to assume that Morrigan is willing to lie/shade the truth to suit her needs. I would apply that to what she tells the PC about the Dark Ritual. I don't imagine that she told us the entire story about the ritual.

[Maconbar]

LynxAQ wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

Like I said earlier both of those bases are pretty much covered. There was a third male Grey Warden there and reality is no one truly knows what happens to the essence of an old God after it kills the Grey Warden. It's assumed the essence is also destroyed, but it's possible it could linger within the corpse, perhaps she was able to take it from the corpse of the Grey Warden, perhaps she was able to save part of the essence.

 
Without sounding to horrible, that is a really silly comment. You slayed the arch demon and your companions just left your body lying cold on the floor whilst they went for lunch?? Sorry but once you decline the ritual, Morrigan has no way of getting close, and NO she couldnt finish the ritual in some bird form, that is getting silly and if the lore did take that pathetic route, I am stating now I will not support it.

If you decline the ritual, Morrigan doesnt have a god child - simple really. There is really no convincing argument to make me think otherwise atm. Otherwise there would not have been the Orlais and not pregnant epilogue in the game.

It's never really clear what the essence even is. Is it it's soul, it's power, it's taint. Without knowing exactly what it is it's hard to say what can possibly happen.

Actually its said quite clearly its the soul.

But as there is, the choice is ours and thankfully this BG wannabe story plot is old and played. Please Bioware, the whole god child story is tired and needs to be retired, do not go down this path again. I mean we don't need a BG wannabe sequel thanks.

Actually TheMadCat's observation isn't silly. If the PC declines Morrigan's invitation do you really think that she would just say ok and give up?

I understand that you don't want this outcome but to insist that there is no chance that she would approach one of the other grey wardens to attempt the ritual seems misguided. Yes she tells you that Riordan had been a warden too long. Maybe she lied about that. Is it possible that she strongly prefered to perform that ritual with you but would settle for Riordan?