343 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

Don't forget the Templar locked up in Howe's dungeon.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
You know me better than that.  I love to dismiss Alistair out of hand.  However, there are more facts leading up to this being right than there are to it being wrong.  Why is underground lyrium trade profitable?  Why does the Chantry control the lyrium trade?  This has another answer, and I'll give it here, to limit what's available to the mages.  However, this does not preclude, or justify addicting Templars to lyrium to control them.  None of the Templars that I fought in the mage tower were more effective than Alistair, and they are strung out on lyrium.  I can state this as an absolute fact because I have delivered lyrium to Godwin to feed that addiction.  I have seen what happens to a Templar that isn't given lyrium.  All of this taken even individually is damning, but when you add it all up, it means that the Chantry isn't as squeaky clean as some would like to believe.

Sorry dude, it's fun trading jabs, but your posts are always long that I usually leave them till I've done the shorter ones.

You're only pointing out that templars suffer from lyrium withdrawal, which I do not disagree.

Your entire point however, can be refuted with one assumption, that templars need lyrium to use their powers.
There is also convincing Codex entries that suggest this. If lyrium is needed to become a templar, then blaming the Chantry for lyrium addiction is like blaming the Grey Wardens for killing people through the Joining and the taint.

That's the only point we need to discuss, do templars need lyrium to have their powers or not. The entire debate hangs on this.

However, even in light of the fact that the Chantry willingly subjects it's Templars to lyrium addiction to control them, saying that it somehow enhances their powers, or gives them their powers in the first place, this despite the fact that you can have a whole party of Templars that never touch the stuff. All of a sudden we go outside of game for the answers?  That is so not a valid position.

Once again, I have pointed out various examples where gameplay mechanics do not match lore. Raw lyrium, blood mage spec not making templars budge, Branka a dwarf casting illusions, etc. It is entirely possible that the entire party not needing lyrium to be a templar is one of those things where gameplay mechanics ignore factual lore.

Templars knowingly accept lyrium addiction to become templars. Much like how Grey Wardens accept the taint to kill the Archdemon. It is a willing sacrifice. You cannot accuse the Chantry as evil for this. There's no other way to become a templar.

All we should be using for in game knowledge is what's in game.  If you read the books, that predate this game, then you have some additional lore from there, however, jumping to game mechanics to defend an in game entity doesn't work.  From the available information, it is easy to say that the Chantry is every bit as evil as the Old Gods, and they must be stopped.  Afterall, it's not a jump, or thin, to say that controlling a segment of the population by drug addiction is slavery.

If the Chantry was evil, they wouldn't selflessly help the people through the Chantry boards. The Chantry and the Templars were the only ones left in Lothering while the authority left. The Chantry is about as evil as the Grey Wardens, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

The only place I've heard that the Chantry practices slavery is on these forums. Nowhere in the game do people denounce the Chantry for slavery. When the noble exclaims "Slavery? There is no slavery in Denerim!", he's not talking about the Chantry. He's talking about the Alienage elves being sold as slaves.

Modifié par Original182, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:17 .

[Asylumer]

Original182 wrote...

When is Alistair telling the truth, and when is he telling a lie? He could be sniffing lyrium while you are on your Character Sheet. I can also wildly theorize. Could be possible.

Obviously you have a problem distinguishing speculation from evidence.

[Original182]

Asylumer wrote...

Obviously you have a problem distinguishing speculation from evidence.

Well, takes one to know one. So it's alright, I'm not the only one.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

When is the Chantry telling the truth, and when are they lying?

When is Alistair telling the truth, and when is he telling a lie? He could be sniffing lyrium while you are on your Character Sheet. I can also wildly theorize. Could be possible.

So you don't have an answer for this question, just more hyperbole?  Come now, it's a straight forward question.  You started out this branch of this discussion claiming that the Chantry didn't addict Templars to lyrium, and then posted evidence from the codex to the contrary.  You have also stated that the Old Gods must be evil because they just lay underground and sleep, this despite knowing that they were banished there by the Maker.  Wasn't it also you that stated that the Chantry freed the elves from the Tevintar Imperium, despite the fact that a) the war wasn't fought to free the elves, the elves fought with Andraste to try to gain their freedom, and prior to Andraste's death, there was no Chantry, and c) the Chantry is responsible for the current condition of the elves, due their Exalted March against the Dales.  If we carry this out to it's logical conclusion, Alienages only exist because the Chantry destroyed the Dales, and therefore they are responsible for the elves being in the Alienage to be sold by Loghain.  Yeah, that's a reach, just a comical ancedote to consider.  Yet, we are supposed to blindly accept that the Chantry is good?  All evidence points to the contrary.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
You know me better than that.  I love to dismiss Alistair out of hand.  However, there are more facts leading up to this being right than there are to it being wrong.  Why is underground lyrium trade profitable?  Why does the Chantry control the lyrium trade?  This has another answer, and I'll give it here, to limit what's available to the mages.  However, this does not preclude, or justify addicting Templars to lyrium to control them.  None of the Templars that I fought in the mage tower were more effective than Alistair, and they are strung out on lyrium.  I can state this as an absolute fact because I have delivered lyrium to Godwin to feed that addiction.  I have seen what happens to a Templar that isn't given lyrium.  All of this taken even individually is damning, but when you add it all up, it means that the Chantry isn't as squeaky clean as some would like to believe.

Sorry dude, it's fun trading jabs, but your posts are always long that I usually leave them till I've done the shorter ones.

You're only pointing out that templars suffer from lyrium withdrawal, which I do not disagree.

Your entire point however, can be refuted with one assumption, that templars need lyrium to use their powers.
There is also convincing Codex entries that suggest this. If lyrium is needed to become a templar, then blaming the Chantry for lyrium addiction is like blaming the Grey Wardens for killing people through the Joining and the taint.

That's the only point we need to discuss, do templars need lyrium to have their powers or not. The entire debate hangs on this.

However, even in light of the fact that the Chantry willingly subjects it's Templars to lyrium addiction to control them, saying that it somehow enhances their powers, or gives them their powers in the first place, this despite the fact that you can have a whole party of Templars that never touch the stuff. All of a sudden we go outside of game for the answers?  That is so not a valid position.

Once again, I have pointed out various examples where gameplay mechanics do not match lore. Raw lyrium, blood mage spec not making templars budge, Branka a dwarf casting illusions, etc. It is entirely possible that the entire party not needing lyrium to be a templar is one of those things where gameplay mechanics ignore factual lore.

Templars knowingly accept lyrium addiction to become templars. Much like how Grey Wardens accept the taint to kill the Archdemon. It is a willing sacrifice. You cannot accuse the Chantry as evil for this. There's no other way to become a templar.

All we should be using for in game knowledge is what's in game.  If you read the books, that predate this game, then you have some additional lore from there, however, jumping to game mechanics to defend an in game entity doesn't work.  From the available information, it is easy to say that the Chantry is every bit as evil as the Old Gods, and they must be stopped.  Afterall, it's not a jump, or thin, to say that controlling a segment of the population by drug addiction is slavery.

If the Chantry was evil, they wouldn't selflessly help the people through the Chantry boards. The Chantry and the Templars were the only ones left in Lothering while the authority left. The Chantry is about as evil as the Grey Wardens, and they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

The only place I've heard that the Chantry practices slavery is on these forums. Nowhere in the game do people denounce the Chantry for slavery. When the noble exclaims "Slavery? There is no slavery in Denerim!", he's not talking about the Chantry. He's talking about the Alienage elves being sold as slaves.

I'll keep this one short.  You cannot suffer withdrawal from a substance that you are not addicted to.

[Paramecium_Caudatum]

To be honest an old god seems to be a pretty nice target... hehe...
Still how high are the chances that the Maker is the final Boss of the Trilogy?

Modifié par Paramecium_Caudatum, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:25 .

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
You started out this branch of this discussion claiming that the Chantry didn't addict Templars to lyrium, and then posted evidence from the codex to the contrary.

I never said the Chantry didn't addict Templars. I used the medicinal marijuana example to counter your claim that the Chantry control of lyrium is for evil intentions. If that were true, then hospitals controlling marijuana are also doing them for evil intentions.

Chantry control of lyrium could be to prevent further abuses of lyrium. They could be giving reasonable dosages of lyrium to templars to have stable conditions. But people like Godwin exploit the templars' addiction by feeding them more lyrium.

And the original point of this is: why do you only blame the Chantry, and not mages like Godwin? Why are the Chantry the only scapegoats, and mages like Godwin are exempt? Conclusion: you are biased towards the Chantry.

You have also stated that the Old Gods must be evil because they just lay underground and sleep, this despite knowing that they were banished there by the Maker.

The same lore found in the Chantry known to cover up things? So Chantry Codex entries supporting tha templars need lyrium for their powers are propaganda, but Chantry Codex entries saying the Maker banished the Old Gods are fact?

And I never said the Old Gods are evil for being underground. I'm saying people give the benefit of the doubt to the Old Gods despite them doing nothing, while the Chantry who makes effort to do good things are still considered evil.

Chantry doing good deeds, still evil.
Therefore Old Gods who do nothing at all, must be evil.

Original point: You are not giving the Chantry the benefit of the doubt.

Wasn't it also you that stated that the Chantry freed the elves from the Tevintar Imperium, despite the fact that a) the war wasn't fought to free the elves, the elves fought with Andraste to try to gain their freedom, and prior to Andraste's death, there was no Chantry, and c) the Chantry is responsible for the current condition of the elves, due their Exalted March against the Dales.

Whether it was the Chantry or Andraste was irrelevant, either case, the Exalted March freed the elves. Andraste was fighting against the injustice of the Telvinter.

Exalted March hurting Dalish elves: Constantly being used to attack the Chantry, despite in the context of the medieval ages, every country has committed crimes.
Exalted March opposing the evil Telvinter which freed the elves in the process: Ignored

Original point: You are not giving the benefit of the doubt to the Chantry.

If we carry this out to it's logical conclusion, Alienages only exist because the Chantry destroyed the Dales, and therefore they are responsible for the elves being in the Alienage to be sold by Loghain.  Yeah, that's a reach, just a comical ancedote to consider.  Yet, we are supposed to blindly accept that the Chantry is good?

Yes, it is a stretch. Loghain was the one who sold the elves, yet the Chantry gets the blame?

All evidence points to the contrary.

All evidence points to a Chantry hater.

Modifié par Original182, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[Sialater]

Paramecium_Caudatum wrote...

To be honest an old god seems to be a pretty nice target... hehe...
Still how high are the chances that the Maker is the final Boss of the Trilogy?

I've always wanted to kill a god. 

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
I'll keep this one short.  You cannot suffer withdrawal from a substance that you are not addicted to.

Yes I agree.

[Squiggles1334]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

When is the Chantry telling the truth, and when are they lying?

When is Alistair telling the truth, and when is he telling a lie? He could be sniffing lyrium while you are on your Character Sheet. I can also wildly theorize. Could be possible.

So you don't have an answer for this question, just more hyperbole?  Come now, it's a straight forward question.  You started out this branch of this discussion claiming that the Chantry didn't addict Templars to lyrium, and then posted evidence from the codex to the contrary.  You have also stated that the Old Gods must be evil because they just lay underground and sleep, this despite knowing that they were banished there by the Maker.  Wasn't it also you that stated that the Chantry freed the elves from the Tevintar Imperium, despite the fact that a) the war wasn't fought to free the elves, the elves fought with Andraste to try to gain their freedom, and prior to Andraste's death, there was no Chantry, and c) the Chantry is responsible for the current condition of the elves, due their Exalted March against the Dales.  If we carry this out to it's logical conclusion, Alienages only exist because the Chantry destroyed the Dales, and therefore they are responsible for the elves being in the Alienage to be sold by Loghain.  Yeah, that's a reach, just a comical ancedote to consider.  Yet, we are supposed to blindly accept that the Chantry is good?  All evidence points to the contrary.

To be fair, there are examples of Chantry charity works, mostly done at the local level such as in Lothering, i.e. housing refugees, the lay sister taking the merchant to task for profiteering, Leliana's own personal story of finding refuge in the Chantry, etc.

Though despite the good a local Chantry can do for its community, there is a laundry list of ills and abuses that the Chantry as an organization has to answer for, such as its treatment of magi (and *especially* its treatment of any magically inclined individuals who, knowingly or unknowingly, *don't* subscribe to their little tower club), its treatment of templars, its treatment of heathens, its role in the current plight of elves, etc.

I guess the Chantry just sounds way too much like the result of Religion being tied way too much to State. Like, umm, medieval times. Loved those Crusades!

[Varenus Luckmann]

Korva wrote...
As I have said before, if the demonspawn becomes canon for this franchise, I will stay away from any future products. For me there is zero reason to like, trust or do anything for Morrigan. If the game allowed me to kill her, I would do so long before she makes that inane demand. I would not pay for a sequel revoling around a character and premise that I never chose, and despise too much to want to have anything to do with.

Completely ignoring the biggest choice players can make in this game, or handwaving it away with some half-arsed excuse for why she MUST get what she wants, would be extremely bad form and bad planning in my book.

[...]

I wouldn't be the one to kill Morrigan, but I apart from that, I completely agree with you, from top to bottom. Morrigan was a well-written character, but she's also a loathsome harlot of a manipulative b!tch - and taking anything she says at face value is laughable.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[Original182]

Squiggles1334 wrote...
To be fair, there are examples of Chantry charity works, mostly done at the local level such as in Lothering, i.e. housing refugees, the lay sister taking the merchant to task for profiteering, Leliana's own personal story of finding refuge in the Chantry, etc.

I'm amazed someone actually sees that the Chantry tries to be good.

Though despite the good a local Chantry can do for its community, there is a laundry list of ills and abuses that the Chantry as an organization has to answer for, such as its treatment of magi

The tower is actually a safe haven for the mages from the populace. If you recall Wynne's conversation, she said that no child mage can stand against an angry mob of people wanting to blame someone for a failed child birth, etc. Some child mages also never made it to the tower, presumely killed by the populace due to fear.

Wynne also recalled that when she stepped through the tower's doors, she knew she was home and she was no longer afraid.

There is also some evidence that the Chantry actually legitimizes the mages.

Madam,
I can assure you that the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious
institution and that, indeed, we operate under the supervision of the
Chantry.

http://dragonage.wik...ades-Old_Letter

Being supervised by the Chantry means the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious institution.

(and *especially* its treatment of any magically inclined individuals who, knowingly or unknowingly, *don't* subscribe to their little tower club), its treatment of templars, its treatment of heathens, its role in the current plight of elves, etc.

Referring to your separation of state and religion below, apostates being illegal mages is the law, much like how deserting the army is punishable by death. By comparison, deserters aren't doing anything wrong, they're just running away and not harming anyone. But they are still executed nevertheless, because deserting is against the law.

It is the law. The Chantry governs mages, the country governs the army and population. There is no right or wrong, it just is.

Modifié par Original182, 21 décembre 2009 - 04:46 .

[Korva]

Sialater wrote...

You're a Grey Warden, they're kinda above the law.

I think people read too much into that.

They have the Right of Conscription, but that hinges entirely on not using it in a manner that will make the local powers-that-be mad enough to revoke it. They also do some pretty drastic things to combat the Blight and the darkspawn. That does not, however, mean they are "above the law" and can do whatever they want in any situation that does not directly relate to fulfilling their purpose of protecting the world from the darkspawn. From what I have heard about the Wardens in David's second book, they definitely don't act like they are above local laws and authorities.

[robertthebard]

Hold on, I'm still recovering from the mental gymnastics. The Chantry deserves a pat on the back for freeing the elves from the Imperium, despite the fact that they didn't exist, and weren't fighting for the elves, and that the Chantry is responsible for their current plights. Yes, the Dalish are homeless clans because of the Chantry, and City Elves live in squallor because the Chantry destroyed the Dales. They remain in squallor due to prejudice that is clearly evident in the City Elf Origin. "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding". Very roughly paraphrased Vaughn. They are in this condition as a direct result of the Chantry being mad because the elves refused a Chantry in their lands. Isn't there also an ending where the Chantry may do an Exalted March against the dwarves for the same reason, or something similar?



Back to my original point, selling slaves is bad, but keeping them isn't? This is what the Chantry does. They enslave the Templars with lyrium because they will suffer withdrawals if they don't get it. Just as a curiosity, when did the Chantry's focus change from spreading the Chant to all corners of the world to supervising mages? Is this supposed to be implied by the second verse of the Chant, or is this something that I may have missed in game? Unlike some of my detractors that will ignore facts in evidence, I freely admit when I make a mistake, or miss something, so it's possible that I did miss something.



If being willing to take all the available evidence into consideration before reaching a conclusion makes me a Chantry hater, then I'll own that too. After all, we know from my post history that I'm not big on boot licking.

[Sialater]

Korva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

You're a Grey Warden, they're kinda above the law.

I think people read too much into that.

They have the Right of Conscription, but that hinges entirely on not using it in a manner that will make the local powers-that-be mad enough to revoke it. They also do some pretty drastic things to combat the Blight and the darkspawn. That does not, however, mean they are "above the law" and can do whatever they want in any situation that does not directly relate to fulfilling their purpose of protecting the world from the darkspawn. From what I have heard about the Wardens in David's second book, they definitely don't act like they are above local laws and authorities.

Perhaps I spoke too broadly.  They were, after all, exiled up until  30 years ago from Ferelden for trying to become the law.

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...
To be fair, there are examples of Chantry charity works, mostly done at the local level such as in Lothering, i.e. housing refugees, the lay sister taking the merchant to task for profiteering, Leliana's own personal story of finding refuge in the Chantry, etc.

I'm amazed someone actually sees that the Chantry tries to be good.

Though despite the good a local Chantry can do for its community, there is a laundry list of ills and abuses that the Chantry as an organization has to answer for, such as its treatment of magi

The tower is actually a safe haven for the mages from the populace. If you recall Wynne's conversation, she said that no child mage can stand against an angry mob of people wanting to blame someone for a failed child birth, etc. Some child mages also never made it to the tower, presumely killed by the populace due to fear.

Wynne also recalled that when she stepped through the tower's doors, she knew she was home and she was no longer afraid.

There is also some evidence that the Chantry actually legitimizes the mages.

Madam,
I can assure you that the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious
institution and that, indeed, we operate under the supervision of the
Chantry.

http://dragonage.wik...ades-Old_Letter

Being supervised by the Chantry means the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious institution.

(and *especially* its treatment of any magically inclined individuals who, knowingly or unknowingly, *don't* subscribe to their little tower club), its treatment of templars, its treatment of heathens, its role in the current plight of elves, etc.

Referring to your separation of state and religion below, apostates being illegal mages is the law, much like how deserting the army is punishable by death. By comparison, deserters aren't doing anything wrong, they're just running away and not harming anyone. But they are still executed nevertheless, because deserting is against the law.

It is the law. The Chantry governs mages, the country governs the army and population. There is no right or wrong, it just is.

Zing, what?  I'm so not going to get into that blanket statement that seemingly isn't so blankety.

However, regarding the mage tower, all you have to do is play the mage origin to the end of the very first cutscene to know the nature of the tower.  Yes, it's a haven, but it's also a prison.  Ask Irving if you can leave the tower after your Harrowing.

[apantoliani]

ckriley wrote...

*snip* A Grey Warden who breaks the sacred pact... *snip* 

The only 'pact' a Grey Warden has is to kill the Archdemon and therefore end the Blight. Everything along the way is up to the Grey Warden in charge, convinently you. Pretty straight forward to me. 

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...
To be fair, there are examples of Chantry charity works, mostly done at the local level such as in Lothering, i.e. housing refugees, the lay sister taking the merchant to task for profiteering, Leliana's own personal story of finding refuge in the Chantry, etc.

I'm amazed someone actually sees that the Chantry tries to be good.

Though despite the good a local Chantry can do for its community, there is a laundry list of ills and abuses that the Chantry as an organization has to answer for, such as its treatment of magi

The tower is actually a safe haven for the mages from the populace. If you recall Wynne's conversation, she said that no child mage can stand against an angry mob of people wanting to blame someone for a failed child birth, etc. Some child mages also never made it to the tower, presumely killed by the populace due to fear.

Wynne also recalled that when she stepped through the tower's doors, she knew she was home and she was no longer afraid.

There is also some evidence that the Chantry actually legitimizes the mages.

Madam,
I can assure you that the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious
institution and that, indeed, we operate under the supervision of the
Chantry.

http://dragonage.wik...ades-Old_Letter

Being supervised by the Chantry means the Circle of Magi is not a sacrilegious institution.

(and *especially* its treatment of any magically inclined individuals who, knowingly or unknowingly, *don't* subscribe to their little tower club), its treatment of templars, its treatment of heathens, its role in the current plight of elves, etc.

Referring to your separation of state and religion below, apostates being illegal mages is the law, much like how deserting the army is punishable by death. By comparison, deserters aren't doing anything wrong, they're just running away and not harming anyone. But they are still executed nevertheless, because deserting is against the law.

It is the law. The Chantry governs mages, the country governs the army and population. There is no right or wrong, it just is.

Zing, what?  I'm so not going to get into that blanket statement that seemingly isn't so blankety.

However, regarding the mage tower, all you have to do is play the mage origin to the end of the very first cutscene to know the nature of the tower.  Yes, it's a haven, but it's also a prison.  Ask Irving if you can leave the tower after your Harrowing.

Better yet, ask the guards at the front door.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Hold on, I'm still recovering from the mental gymnastics. The Chantry deserves a pat on the back for freeing the elves from the Imperium, despite the fact that they didn't exist, and weren't fighting for the elves, and that the Chantry is responsible for their current plights.

If it wasn't for Andraste's Exalted March, the elves would still be under the Telvinter, presumely being sacrificed to power their blood spells. Even Lanaya is polite enough to thank Andraste for her role in freeing the elves, despite Andraste not "deliberately fighting for the elves". I guess her words are more valid than a bard named robert.

Andraste, Chantry, doesn't matter. You're just arguing technicalities. Both Andraste and the Chantry are the people of the Maker. That's like saying the Grey Wardens of this generation do not deserve the recognition that their ancestors earned, because they are different people.

Yes, the Dalish are homeless clans because of the Chantry, and City Elves live in squallor because the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

Yet Lanaya still thanks Andraste for her role in freeing the Dalish. She didn't go "Oh because the Chantry did the Exalted March on Dales, therefore Andraste's help is nullified and doesn't exist". So at least she gives credit where credit is due, unlike you.

They remain in squallor due to prejudice that is clearly evident in the City Elf Origin. "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding". Very roughly paraphrased Vaughn.

Yes, correct, it was Vaughan who did this. Not the Chantry. Yes shocking revelation!

They are in this condition as a direct result of the Chantry being mad because the elves refused a Chantry in their lands.

By reverse, if in an alternate universe, the City Elves are treated like royalty, will you thank the Chantry? Something tells me no.

The Chantry never told people to treat the elves badly. The general population treats them badly. Anora let it happen. Loghain it happen. Only Alistair in his epilogue started to treat them like people. If you want to blame anyone for the City Elves condition, blame the ones in charge. But of course, you won't. Once again, only the Chantry gets the blame for things they did not do.

Isn't there also an ending where the Chantry may do an Exalted March against the dwarves for the same reason, or something similar?

Because the dwarves killed the Dwarf priest for preaching the Maker. It's no different to how the same Chantry destroyed the Dales for worshipping their elven gods, the very same thing you condemn.

And yet again, the Chantry gets blamed for Exalted marches, but if they themselves get religious persecution, they have no right to seek justice. But of course, I'm not surprised you have such biased views.

Back to my original point, selling slaves is bad, but keeping them isn't? This is what the Chantry does.

The Chantry doesn't not practise slavery. Please don't use it as fact when it is still on contention.

They enslave the Templars with lyrium because they will suffer withdrawals if they don't get it.

Templars willingly accept withdrawals because they need lyrium to become templars.

Just as a curiosity, when did the Chantry's focus change from spreading the Chant to all corners of the world to supervising mages? Is this supposed to be implied by the second verse of the Chant, or is this something that I may have missed in game? Unlike some of my detractors that will ignore facts in evidence, I freely admit when I make a mistake, or miss something, so it's possible that I did miss something.

Chantry have many roles, like spreading Chant, helping people, supervising mages, managing templars. No where does it say they only have to spread the Chant.

If being willing to take all the available evidence into consideration before reaching a conclusion makes me a Chantry hater, then I'll own that too. After all, we know from my post history that I'm not big on boot licking.

An Alistair and Chantry hater combined in one. Deadly combination.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

However, regarding the mage tower, all you have to do is play the mage origin to the end of the very first cutscene to know the nature of the tower.  Yes, it's a haven, but it's also a prison.  Ask Irving if you can leave the tower after your Harrowing.

The mages themselves agree they should obey the rules set by the Chantry. There are political groups in the mage tower, and so far the majority agree that they should obey the rules.

- the Loyalists, who advocate loyalty and obedience to the Chantry.
- the Aequitarians, who advocate temperance and follow a distinct code of
conduct which they believe all mages should hold themselves to.
- the Libertarians, a growing fraternity, publicly maintaining greater power
for the Circles but secretly advocating a complete split from the
Chantry—a dangerous opinion, naturally.
- the Isolationists, a small group that advocates withdrawing to remote territories in order to
avoid conflicts with the general populace.
- the Lucrosians, who maintain that the Circle must do what is profitable first and foremost.
They prioritize the accumulation of wealth, with the gaining of
political influence a close second.

So far, an alliance between the Loyalists and Aequitarians has
prevented the Libertarians from gaining much headway, but there are
signs that the Aequitarians may throw their support in with the
Libertarians. If that happens, many mages predict it will come to civil
war among the Circles.


http://dragonage.wik...y_of_Enchanters

Majority of the mages agree with the rules of the Circle tower, so you don't need to concern yourselves on their welfare.

But you are free to say that First Enchanter Josephus made that all up to appease his Chantry overlords.

Modifié par Original182, 21 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[Squiggles1334]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hold on, I'm still recovering from the mental gymnastics. The Chantry deserves a pat on the back for freeing the elves from the Imperium, despite the fact that they didn't exist, and weren't fighting for the elves, and that the Chantry is responsible for their current plights.

If it wasn't for Andraste's Exalted March, the elves would still be under the Telvinter, presumely being sacrificed to power their blood spells. Even Lanaya is polite enough to thank Andraste for her role in freeing the elves, despite Andraste not "deliberately fighting for the elves". I guess her words are more valid than a bard named robert.

Andraste, Chantry, doesn't matter. You're just arguing technicalities. Both Andraste and the Chantry are the people of the Maker. That's like saying the Grey Wardens of this generation do not deserve the recognition that their ancestors earned, because they are different people.

Yes, the Dalish are homeless clans because of the Chantry, and City Elves live in squallor because the Chantry destroyed the Dales.

Yet Lanaya still thanks Andraste for her role in freeing the Dalish. She didn't go "Oh because the Chantry did the Exalted March on Dales, therefore Andraste's help is nullified and doesn't exist". So at least she gives credit where credit is due, unlike you.

They remain in squallor due to prejudice that is clearly evident in the City Elf Origin. "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding". Very roughly paraphrased Vaughn.

Yes, correct, it was Vaughan who did this. Not the Chantry. Yes shocking revelation!

They are in this condition as a direct result of the Chantry being mad because the elves refused a Chantry in their lands.

By reverse, if in an alternate universe, the City Elves are treated like royalty, will you thank the Chantry? Something tells me no.

The Chantry never told people to treat the elves badly. The general population treats them badly. Anora let it happen. Loghain it happen. Only Alistair in his epilogue started to treat them like people. If you want to blame anyone for the City Elves condition, blame the ones in charge. But of course, you won't. Once again, only the Chantry gets the blame for things they did not do.

Isn't there also an ending where the Chantry may do an Exalted March against the dwarves for the same reason, or something similar?

Because the dwarves killed the Dwarf priest for preaching the Maker. It's no different to how the same Chantry destroyed the Dales for worshipping their elven gods, the very same thing you condemn.

And yet again, the Chantry gets blamed for Exalted marches, but if they themselves get religious persecution, they have no right to seek justice. But of course, I'm not surprised you have such biased views.

Back to my original point, selling slaves is bad, but keeping them isn't? This is what the Chantry does.

The Chantry doesn't not practise slavery. Please don't use it as fact when it is still on contention.

They enslave the Templars with lyrium because they will suffer withdrawals if they don't get it.

Templars willingly accept withdrawals because they need lyrium to become templars.

Just as a curiosity, when did the Chantry's focus change from spreading the Chant to all corners of the world to supervising mages? Is this supposed to be implied by the second verse of the Chant, or is this something that I may have missed in game? Unlike some of my detractors that will ignore facts in evidence, I freely admit when I make a mistake, or miss something, so it's possible that I did miss something.

Chantry have many roles, like spreading Chant, helping people, supervising mages, managing templars. No where does it say they only have to spread the Chant.

If being willing to take all the available evidence into consideration before reaching a conclusion makes me a Chantry hater, then I'll own that too. After all, we know from my post history that I'm not big on boot licking.

An Alistair and Chantry hater combined in one. Deadly combination.

What does Andraste even have to do with this? She didn't actually found the Chantry organization
that is responsible for the crusade against the Elven Dales. There's
nothing inconsistent with revering Andraste while despising the
Chantry as the Dalish do. In fact, that's probably yet another strike against the
Chantry organization, launching a holy war against a former ally of their own religion's hero figure.

And nobody said that the Chantry is directly engaging in passing oppressive legislation
to keep the elves down to this very day. All that was said was that the
Chantry was responsible for the Exalted March against the Dales, which
is what directly led to half the elven population submitting to
second-class citizenship while the other half hides away in roving
nomadic forest tribes.

Actively promoting oppression? Not really. Responsible for starting it? Yes.

[robertthebard]

The forum is conspiring against me, it won't let me edit out my quotes.  So I'll have to do this the hard way.

Firstly, The Dales didn't exist until after Andraste's march.  This land was given to them after the victory.  Lanaya thanks her for initially freeing the elves, but the Chantry is the reason the Dalish are homeless wanderers.  It's easy to blur this line if you choose, but that does not make it factual.  Prior to the Tevinter Imperium, the elves lived in Arlathan.  This is what Tevinter took away.  Andraste marched against Tevinter to drive them from Ferelden, and the end result of that war was the Dales.  Then the Chantry marched on the Dales centuries later because the elves wouldn't have the Maker.  No chantry buildings or religion in their lands, they wanted their culture back, and the Chantry took that away.  I don't know what the elves were called during their time in the Dales, Dalish makes sense, I suppose, but the Dalish are thankful for having them set up, not taken away.  Even now, they do not worship the Maker.  City elves, however, were forced to.  That they have all but lost their traditions living as City elves can be gleaned from the sign by the tree in the City Elf origin, and in discussion with Lanaya.  This also explains why Keepers are so important to Dalish society, since they keep all the lore that has been remembered, or rediscovered.

The Chantry is the direct reason they are in a position to be treated badly.  No Exalted March, no Alienages, no bad treatment.  Cause and effect.  The Chantry insists that all worship the Maker, and go on Exalted Marches to make it happen.  "Worship my God, or die".  This ties in directly with the "Worship my God or die" thing then, regarding the Exalted March against the dwarves.  Again, because now it's the dwarves that are resisting the Maker being instituted into their culture.  There is no choice as far as the Chantry is concerned, it's their way, or they go to war.  Yet even if this destroys a whole culture, it's not an evil thing?

If the Templars could simply choose to walk away, with no ill will, or no ill side affects, you might have a point.  This is, however, not the case.  Duncan had to use the Rite of Conscription to recruit Alistair, unless you're going to say that he made this up too for sympathy?  You wouldn't have to twist my arm too hard to get me to buy that.  Also, it's Alistair that states that they don't let their Templars go, or is it they don't like to?  Understand again that I love discrediting Alistair, so feel free to do so.  I'll be sure to quote you on it in one of the Alistair threads.  Again, I have seen nothing in game that suggests that Templars willingly accept withdrawals.  In fact, the only thing I have seen in game regarding this is that it's bad.  Templar in Howe's basement...

As has been pointed out, on the local level, both in Lothering, and Redcliffe the Chantry can be seen to be trying to help the populace.  This does not imply that they are not guilty of baser crimes, as can be seen by evidence provided by you via the wiki concerning addiction/withdrawal from lyrium.  It can, if one wants to get out the tin foil hats, not big on those either, be used to cover these other actions.  "See, look what we did for Lothering and Redcliffe".  Despite this, it does not make them an agency of angels, or particularly innocent of wrong doing.

Also of note is the fact that I have posted on these forums that you can't base your opinion of a whole religion on the acts of what a few do.  Worshipping the Maker in and of itself has not been proven to be evil.  However, the actions of the Hierarchy of the Chantry can be drawn into question.  This was a hard post to write, had to jump up and down..

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

However, regarding the mage tower, all you have to do is play the mage origin to the end of the very first cutscene to know the nature of the tower.  Yes, it's a haven, but it's also a prison.  Ask Irving if you can leave the tower after your Harrowing.

The mages themselves agree they should obey the rules set by the Chantry. There are political groups in the mage tower, and so far the majority agree that they should obey the rules.

- the Loyalists, who advocate loyalty and obedience to the Chantry.
- the Aequitarians, who advocate temperance and follow a distinct code of
conduct which they believe all mages should hold themselves to.
- the Libertarians, a growing fraternity, publicly maintaining greater power
for the Circles but secretly advocating a complete split from the
Chantry—a dangerous opinion, naturally.
- the Isolationists, a small group that advocates withdrawing to remote territories in order to
avoid conflicts with the general populace.
- the Lucrosians, who maintain that the Circle must do what is profitable first and foremost.
They prioritize the accumulation of wealth, with the gaining of
political influence a close second.

So far, an alliance between the Loyalists and Aequitarians has
prevented the Libertarians from gaining much headway, but there are
signs that the Aequitarians may throw their support in with the
Libertarians. If that happens, many mages predict it will come to civil
war among the Circles.


http://dragonage.wik...y_of_Enchanters

Majority of the mages agree with the rules of the Circle tower, so you don't need to concern yourselves on their welfare.

But you are free to say that First Enchanter Josephus made that all up to appease his Chantry overlords.

I have no need to say anyone made anything up.  I don't, however see a majority.  2 of 5 factions agree, and the other three aren't allied, but it's looking like they might, which would result in Civil War.  If the majority of them agreed, then the majority would be aligned.  2 of 5 are in this example.  The Majority would be 3 of 5.  However, to see what I'm saying, just go roll a mage.  You don't even have to play it.  Just roll it and watch the cutscene.

[Baalzie]

robertthebard wrote...

The forum is conspiring against me, it won't let me edit out my quotes.  So I'll have to do this the hard way.

*losts of texts here which I totally agree with but saving space by just stating it rather than reposting it in a quote*

I have to agree with all of the above!
I guess the reason so many say the Chantry is Good no matter what, is their real life religion being christian...
Most often the fact...
Since the Chantry mimics Christianity and the early Catholic Church in many ways, albeit being matriarcal rather than patriarcal...

And to return the the actual TOPIC:
Morrigan ofc gets the baby no matter WHAT you say... If neither You or Alistair puts up for some strange reason, there's always Riordan...
I betcha he'd be willing, but wise from being denied by the PC she ofc don't offfer him any explanation, but just seduces him, Presto! Tainted Child!
Without forcing the pc to do anything whatsoever...
Doh!