112 réponses à ce sujet

[skotie]

The title is basically my question. All throughout the game any mage who goes against the chantry's teachings is deemed malificar or an apostate. The biggest problem I have with this is even the mages of the circle are not weak they are quite powerful, yet anytime one of them uses blood magic they are instantly villanous for doing so. Using ones own blood or the blood of your enemies is not necessarily evil, its how you use the magic that makes what you do "evil" or immoral, whatever you want to call it.

But its not JUST blood magic that can be used for negative purposes, any form of magic could, so why is it needed to outlaw mages who practice blood magic? Because they believe it caused the first darkspawn, of which is only true because the chantry says it is so? Which likely isn't even really true to begin with?

I can understand mages like Morrigan, apostates being feared, since they do not belong to the circle and thus have no intentions of using their powers responsibly. After all that's what the circle does and the templars SHOULD be for, to ensure mages do not decide to go on a killing spree.

I do not see how one form of magic can be deemed more dangerous then another, especially when your character can learn how to summon giant balls of fire to rain down on people but that is perfectly fine!

Is it because blood magic was first learned by demons? It could be that all magic was first learned from demons but for some reason its only blood magic that gets the bad rep. Just wondering why really, I could justify how someone could use blood magic for moral purposes, after all your character kills the Arch Demon and he/she can become a blood mage.

Modifié par skotie, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[T0paze]

It isn't. It is just feared.
And it's only feared by the Chantry, maybe because it allows controlling the mind of other people. The general population is suspicious of all mages, regardless of whether they're blood mages or not. And that's also due to the Chantry's influence. And since the Chantry is essentially a bunch of bigots who want to hold all mages at gunpoint, I wouldn't really defer to their judgment  in questions concerning the morality of different forms of magic.

I'm sure that in those areas where the power of the Chantry is limited (Tevinter?), blood magic is perfectly normal.

Modifié par T0paze, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:09 .

[Original182]

Wrong, even Morrigan, an apostate thinks making deals with a demon is a bad idea. She states that in your conversation at Redcliffe.

Caridin, the golem, who does not believe in the Maker or the Chantry, thinks that the Anvil of the Void must be destroyed. Binding souls to golems is a form of blood magic.

Blood Magic has its roots in the Telvinter, who often sacrifice slaves to power their spells.

Blood Magic is also known to open the Veil to allow demons to pass through.

http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School

Blood Magic is feared not because the Chantry says so, as I've given some evidence above. Blood Magic is evil because it has roots with evil practices, allows evil demons to pass through, involves evil acts, etc.

We as gamers cannot determine what is evil and what is not, because we only see the game mechanics of it. The Blood Magic specialization is just a gameplay mechanic. It only deals damage just like any other magic. But lorewise, Blood Magic is evil because it involves evil acts.

[Time4Tiddy]

The main concern with blood magic is that it could be used to control the mind of another, causing him/her to act against their own will with none the wiser. All other magic, no matter how violent or destructive, at least has an obvious source that can be sought out and destroyed.



If a mage casts animate dead and sends zombie armies into Denerim, everyone knows a maleficar is responsible and they can hunt him down. If a blood mage is controlling the king and making policy decisions through him, no one would suspect. Scary!

[T0paze]

Nah, it's not.

It is presumed to be originally taught by demons. It's not taught by demons in each and every case a mage wants to become a blood mage. That's a huge difference.

Binding souls to golems cannot be part of blood magic. Golems are created by dwarves, and  dwarves are incapable of any magic, including blood magic.

As for Tevinter, pretty much every kind of magic has its roots in Tevinter, so that doesn't mean anything. So much for your evidence.

As for that reference, you realize you're quoting a document that had to be officially approved by the Chantry, right? What do you think would be written there? They even have a quote from the Transfigurations. 

Modifié par T0paze, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[skotie]

Yes I read that in my codex in game actually, the fact is if your character uses blood magic in game you are not opening the veil, you are not killing slaves to power spells, most times your simply using your own blood to power spells.



I can see it being feared because it could bring demons into the world, however any mage could at any time anyways by being possessed. I'm just not understanding why blood magic is so much more feared than other forms of magic, except for the fact it was blood mages of the Tevinter that the chantry says caused the first darkspawn.

[skotie]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

The main concern with blood magic is that it could be used to control the mind of another, causing him/her to act against their own will with none the wiser. All other magic, no matter how violent or destructive, at least has an obvious source that can be sought out and destroyed.

If a mage casts animate dead and sends zombie armies into Denerim, everyone knows a maleficar is responsible and they can hunt him down. If a blood mage is controlling the king and making policy decisions through him, no one would suspect. Scary!

Actually this make the most sense I think. Guess I never seen it because the blood mages in game never actually seem to know blood magic for some odd reason, never has there been a fight when my own teammates started attacking me.

[robertthebard]

I love how everyone always assumes that the only powers a Blood Mage has are the powers you get if you unlock it. However, this is not the case. Any time Blood Magic is discussed, it mentions the mind control aspects of it as what makes it forbidden. Now, this does mean forbidden by the Chantry, and then, by extension every one else. However, before we go dancing in the streets with the "I told you so, it's only forbidden because the Chantry says so", what does the Litany of Adrala do? Wynne explains it in the tower. It protects against mind domination. This is the power that makes it feared in Ferelden, if not most of Thedas. No, the PC doesn't get that power, nor do they get the power to summon demons, but a Blood Mage assuredly can do that, Soldier's Peak anyone? Not to mention, how old is that mage?



The PC only gets a small taste of what Blood Magic is. You can hardly use that as a basis to say that it's harmless, or shouldn't be feared. While it's true that dwarves aren't supposed to be able to work magic, they can work magical devices, such as the anvil, and there is a dialog option to say, it sounds like Blood Magic, and Caridin will admit to it. Not only that, if Ohgren tries to use a lyrium vein to heal himself, it doesn't work, but it does work for Branka. How is that possible? So face value conventions are not worth much, because we only get to know so much.

[Original182]

It feels weird that I'm agreeing with someone whom I opposed in the Alistair is a wimp thread...

But yes in terms of gameplay mechanic, nothing is evil, everything is just pew pew pew. So the problem here is the difficulty to understand how something is evil.

It is the lore aspect of blood magic that makes it evil. We then need to investigate lorewise why blood magic is evil.

[T0paze]

Concerning golems:
I don't know what Branka does there (illusion trick, right), but it's supposed to be a special power. She's not a mage, because she's a dwarf. As for Caridin, Blood Magic is a school. It's spells are supposed to be cast, i.e. used by mages, and no dwarf is a mage. Since the game doesn't mention any devices or scrolls that can be used to cast spells, I assume that they do not exist in the world of Thedas. So whatever the dwarwes or Caridin do, say or use for creating golems, it cannot be Blood Magic. It's simply a technical matter, nothing more. Either that, or the game lies to us and the dwarves can actually cast spells.
As for controlling the minds of other people, the fourth Blood Magic spell actually allows you to control minds, so I guess it's some form of the ability that is so feared by the Chantry. Add a little subtleness, and you get that exact mind nudging Avernus was talking about.

Modifié par T0paze, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[skotie]

robertthebard wrote...

I love how everyone always assumes that the only powers a Blood Mage has are the powers you get if you unlock it. However, this is not the case. Any time Blood Magic is discussed, it mentions the mind control aspects of it as what makes it forbidden. Now, this does mean forbidden by the Chantry, and then, by extension every one else. However, before we go dancing in the streets with the "I told you so, it's only forbidden because the Chantry says so", what does the Litany of Adrala do? Wynne explains it in the tower. It protects against mind domination. This is the power that makes it feared in Ferelden, if not most of Thedas. No, the PC doesn't get that power, nor do they get the power to summon demons, but a Blood Mage assuredly can do that, Soldier's Peak anyone? Not to mention, how old is that mage?

The PC only gets a small taste of what Blood Magic is. You can hardly use that as a basis to say that it's harmless, or shouldn't be feared. While it's true that dwarves aren't supposed to be able to work magic, they can work magical devices, such as the anvil, and there is a dialog option to say, it sounds like Blood Magic, and Caridin will admit to it. Not only that, if Ohgren tries to use a lyrium vein to heal himself, it doesn't work, but it does work for Branka. How is that possible? So face value conventions are not worth much, because we only get to know so much.

Obviously I overlooked the mind control aspects of blood magic, still it seems a little silly for the chantry to let mages learn magic that could decimate an army, yet the second a mage preforms the simplest of blood magic they immediatly execute the mage. It wouldn't be hard for a handful of mages to destroy most any force that opposed them with the magic they are allowed to learn, thats all I'm saying.

[robertthebard]

skotie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I love how everyone always assumes that the only powers a Blood Mage has are the powers you get if you unlock it. However, this is not the case. Any time Blood Magic is discussed, it mentions the mind control aspects of it as what makes it forbidden. Now, this does mean forbidden by the Chantry, and then, by extension every one else. However, before we go dancing in the streets with the "I told you so, it's only forbidden because the Chantry says so", what does the Litany of Adrala do? Wynne explains it in the tower. It protects against mind domination. This is the power that makes it feared in Ferelden, if not most of Thedas. No, the PC doesn't get that power, nor do they get the power to summon demons, but a Blood Mage assuredly can do that, Soldier's Peak anyone? Not to mention, how old is that mage?

The PC only gets a small taste of what Blood Magic is. You can hardly use that as a basis to say that it's harmless, or shouldn't be feared. While it's true that dwarves aren't supposed to be able to work magic, they can work magical devices, such as the anvil, and there is a dialog option to say, it sounds like Blood Magic, and Caridin will admit to it. Not only that, if Ohgren tries to use a lyrium vein to heal himself, it doesn't work, but it does work for Branka. How is that possible? So face value conventions are not worth much, because we only get to know so much.

Obviously I overlooked the mind control aspects of blood magic, still it seems a little silly for the chantry to let mages learn magic that could decimate an army, yet the second a mage preforms the simplest of blood magic they immediatly execute the mage. It wouldn't be hard for a handful of mages to destroy most any force that opposed them with the magic they are allowed to learn, thats all I'm saying.

Somebody pointed this out earlier in this thread; you could conceivably control a King from the background, with none being the wiser.  A mage on a rampage can be found and stopped.  A mage doing nothing overtly, yet controlling a King, would be really hard to ferret out.

[Adria Teksuni]

Between the mind control and the rather large Oops I just made an Abomination factor, I'd say there's a few good reasons to not support Blood Magic.

[cylriasilver]

Think of it in modern ideals. Non-nuclear missiles are seen as a normal part of any major army by the international community, but the use of biological weapons is universally outlawed. A missile salvo can be just as destructive, but they are obvious when they’re used, people not initially hurt can react to them, and the attackers are obvious.



Biological weapons are feared more because they are subtle even while decimating a city’s population. They can be used much more covertly and the effects on the survivors are usually much worse.



Mages in DA are pretty much the same. There are certainly people (some in the Chantry and some not) who feel all mages should be made tranquil, taught only to protect themselves in the fade, or only taught healing and buffing magic.



Then international politics get involved. As King/Queen do you want to be the only nation that can’t call upon fireball throwing mages for your armies?

[Koralis]

It's not evil per se.. it's dangerous.  The templars can keep mages that know the "accepted" magical practices in check.  Magic that would make mages too powerful to be controlled were outlawed.

Blood Magic allows the mage to mind control templars, which is exceedingly dangerous.  Blood Wound could let one blood mage immobilize and kill a room full of unsuspecting templars.  Blood Magic also allows a single mage to open the doorway to the veil, which otherwise requires the cooperation of many mages and much lyrium... it makes it virtually impossible to happen without a great reason.

Even shapeshifting would allow a mage to escape the tower at any point they'd want to by going Spider and dropping out of the tower windows, so even that weak brand of magic has to be discouraged since it makes control of mages difficult.

Modifié par Koralis, 20 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[Koralis]

T0paze wrote...

Concerning golems:
I don't know what Branka does there (illusion trick, right), but it's supposed to be a special power. She's not a mage, because she's a dwarf. As for Caridin, Blood Magic is a school. It's spells are supposed to be cast, i.e. used by mages, and no dwarf is a mage. Since the game doesn't mention any devices or scrolls that can be used to cast spells, I assume that they do not exist in the world of Thedas. So whatever the dwarwes or Caridin do, say or use for creating golems, it cannot be Blood Magic. It's simply a technical matter, nothing more. Either that, or the game lies to us and the dwarves can actually cast spells.

They do... in the form of working lyrium into physical objects to imbue it with spell powers. A Grandmaster Rune of Paralysis basically puts the paralysis spell into the weapon you're swinging, for example.  It's not as versatile or as strong as a mage casting it dynamically, but dwarves weave spells any time they work lyrium.

As for the Forge, Caridin fashions a golem's body and then folds in Lyrium that basically turns the golem's body into a Phylactery (which is a vial of blood everywhere else in the game.)  It's related to blood magic in that the life force is moved from one object to another.

[Aesir Rising]

I followed the various dialogs re: blood magic and took it at face value what was said by NPCs a couple of times (paraphrasing) that the 'evil' aspect of blood magic lies in the ability to control another being - the 'mind control' aspect of it. For me, that meant the magic itself wasn't evil - it was the use of it to remove free will from another creature. In this light, blood magic might be likened to the 'evil' of possession, since the result is the same.

[Loki330]

The way I see it, blood magic's like necromancy in your more usual fantasy settings; it's viewed as 'evil' and 'wrong' but ultimately, it's fundementally just a type of magic. It's *usually* used for evil reasons, hence the fear and reputation, but there isn't anything actually saying 'You gotta be bad to da bone to use dis s***'

[Duck and Cover]

as mentioned above it's not really evil, but feared.



If you use the comparison that this is a fantasy representation of European middle ages, I like to think of magic as science. And how the church feared science (and still does to some extent) and if I'm not mistaken (I'll admit I'm real weak on middle ages history) the church regulated science. And some forms of science were "worse" than others. Well that's my theory. I may be way wrong, but I see the Chantry as a representation of the catholic church.

[DPSSOC]

Blood Magic is considered evil mainly because it can steal life energy from others and use that to fuel their magic. The vampiric nature of the magic combined with it's connection to demons and the mind control gives a fairly good reason to consider it evil. Now yes you can use your own life energy but that doesn't do much to alleviate people's fears.

[thegreateski]

Blood magic is evil in the same way that guns are evil.



It's not a problem until you use it on someone.

[Time4Tiddy]

cylriasilver wrote...

Then international politics get involved. As King/Queen do you want to be the only nation that can’t call upon fireball throwing mages for your armies?

On the other hand, that stupid mage army did more damage to themselves and my party than to the darkspawn.  I tried using them once and it was nothing but friendly fire fireballs and blizzard spells.  I never brought them out again. 

[thegreateski]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

cylriasilver wrote...

Then international politics get involved. As King/Queen do you want to be the only nation that can’t call upon fireball throwing mages for your armies?

On the other hand, that stupid mage army did more damage to themselves and my party than to the darkspawn.  I tried using them once and it was nothing but friendly fire fireballs and blizzard spells.  I never brought them out again. 

They're pretty damn handy for the "defend the gate" part of that battle.
Not the Alienage but the gate where you enter Denerim.

[AntiChri5]

The morality of any ability is determined by what it is used for.

[Smitridel]

Actually, apart from the obvious part that the Templars have no widespread means of counteracting Blood Magic, I believe it's forbidden, due to the fact that you have to make a pact with a demon.
Which on itself, is not generally accepted, even from the apostate's point of view.

That is of course, according to the PC's version of acquiring that art (demon pact).

However, I actually enjoy the whole power comes with the life force cost concept - in comparison to the rest of the "nukish" spells.

Oh...How I wished there was a bad ending for these acrimonious Templars at the Broken Circle storyline. Oh how I wanted to anihilate them...