112 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Smitridel wrote...

Actually, apart from the obvious part that the Templars have no widespread means of counteracting Blood Magic, I believe it's forbidden, due to the fact that you have to make a pact with a demon.
Which on itself, is not generally accepted, even from the apostate's point of view.

That is of course, according to the PC's version of acquiring that art (demon pact).

However, I actually enjoy the whole power comes with the life force cost concept - in comparison to the rest of the "nukish" spells.

Oh...How I wished there was a bad ending for these acrimonious Templars at the Broken Circle storyline. Oh how I wanted to anihilate them...

So how did jowyn learn it? he never went into the fade, so had no contact with demons.

[Smitridel]

We do not know if he had any interaction with any demons whatsoever since he's not truthfull about dabbling with blood magic, from the start.

Modifié par Smitridel, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:46 .

[AntiChri5]

Smitridel wrote...

We do not know if he had any interaction with any demons whatsoever since he's not truthfull about dabbling with blood magic, from the start.

He never had the opportunity to deal with demons. Plus you learn how he got it if you searc
h the mage tower enough.

[thegreateski]

Demons can teach blood magic.



It can be learned from other places however.

[skotie]

Smitridel wrote...

We do not know if he had any interaction with any demons whatsoever since he's not truthfull about dabbling with blood magic, from the start.

Actually in the mage origin story you can find the blood magic books removed from their shelves in Irving's room (Irving will also discuss with you about it if you decide to tell him about your plan to help Jowan). Considering what happened with the tower later in the game, what with the blood mages in the tower being cause to most of it, it stands to reason there is a good chance Jowan ether learned it from reading books on the subject freely left out for the mages to study, (until you start the game of course) or from other blood mages in the tower who we're also hiding the fact they we're blood mages.

There is nothing saying Jowan didn't make a deal with a demon however, but if Jowan was recruitable you could have certainly learned blood magic from him I think, rather than making a pact with a demon.

[Volourn]

"Wrong, even Morrigan, an apostate thinks making deals with a demon is a bad idea. She states that in your conversation at Redcliffe."



Yeah, Morrigan doesn't care much for demons; but she has no real issue with blood magic as evidenced by her asking you to let Jowan go or at least not kill him. She also ha sno problem with letting demons go either. So, she doesn't trust demons; but she isn't blinded by hate for them either.l

[Original182]

Volourn wrote...

"Wrong, even Morrigan, an apostate thinks making deals with a demon is a bad idea. She states that in your conversation at Redcliffe."

Yeah, Morrigan doesn't care much for demons; but she has no real issue with blood magic as evidenced by her asking you to let Jowan go or at least not kill him. She also ha sno problem with letting demons go either. So, she doesn't trust demons; but she isn't blinded by hate for them either.l

Yes that's true, she also has no qualms about performing the dark ritual, which is also blood magic.

But if you have party camp talk with her, she rants about how the Chantry is wrong to classify all apostates as maleficars. In that conversation, she agrees that maleficars are dangerous, but for the Chantry to label all apostates as dangerous maleficars is wrong.

My original point was to refute the argument that blood magic is evil simply because it is Chantry dogma.

Morrigan is clearly anti-Chantry, yet she believes some branches of blood magic is wrong. Therefore blood magic is evil not only because the Chantry says so. To automatically label everything the Chantry says is wrong is a bit tiresome.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Blood Magic isn't evil in any way, shape or form.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thegreateski wrote...

Blood magic is evil in the same way that guns are evil.

It's not a problem until you use it on someone.

Yes, but that's the problem, isn't it? Blood magic is made to be used on people.

You might as well that torture is not evil if you use it on your enemy, but it is evil if used upon you. Doesn't work that way.

[Apophis2412]

1. "Magic exits to serve man, never to rule over him".

2. The "evil" Tevinter Imperium used blood magic to go to the Golden City, leading to the Maker abandonig us, the darkspawn, etc.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

blood Magic in Dragon Age is what necromancy is to most fantasy games. It's not inherently evil, but because it is so powerful, it corrupts easily (remember the old saying, power corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely). Although in the Neverwinter Nights games, I play a necromancer wizard, mainly because it adds the specialist bonus with the loss of a crappy school. Divination is even more useless in that game than in BG2. In BG2 true sight was necessary, in NWN it's useless. The same for Blood Magic here. I play a blood mage (and make Morrigan and Wynne one, and Wynne has no complaints is that a bug?) because it adds power at little cost.

[Smitridel]

skotie wrote...

Smitridel wrote...

We do not know if he had any interaction with any demons whatsoever since he's not truthfull about dabbling with blood magic, from the start.

Actually in the mage origin story you can find the blood magic books removed from their shelves in Irving's room (Irving will also discuss with you about it if you decide to tell him about your plan to help Jowan). Considering what happened with the tower later in the game, what with the blood mages in the tower being cause to most of it, it stands to reason there is a good chance Jowan ether learned it from reading books on the subject freely left out for the mages to study, (until you start the game of course) or from other blood mages in the tower who we're also hiding the fact they we're blood mages.

There is nothing saying Jowan didn't make a deal with a demon however, but if Jowan was recruitable you could have certainly learned blood magic from him I think, rather than making a pact with a demon.

You found notes or in the best scenario, scholarly abstract tomes but definitiely not books.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that in a world where Blood Magic is forbidden there would be books that would give the chance to specialize in it??
Ok, I know it's just a game, but some realism is in order here, isn't it? 

It is said that demon's first taught it.
Sure Jowan could have studied along with other mages that dabbled in Blood Magic...but wouldn't that require a master-apprentice relationship?
And what about the master? Where did he learn that art?

AFAIK and from what I understand game wise, there are two ways to learn Blood Magic.
Either by a demon pact or by someone that has mastered it but in his turn would need someone else to learn it from be it human or demon..

[Cazlee]

Blood magic requires *blood* to work, does that not make it inherently evil?
To obtain blood, one needs to harm a life, possibly resulting in  death. Some blood rituals require human sacrifices. For example, to enter the fade, the Tevinter mages were said to have sacrificed thousands of lives. In addition, Avernus probably sacrificed dozens of gray wardens.
Edit: forgot to mention that most blood mages are probably not using their own blood.

Modifié par Cazlee, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:53 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Cazlee wrote...

To obtain blood, one needs to harm a life, possibly resulting in  death.

United Blood Services would take issue with that.

:happy:

[menasure]

i'd have to replay the whole mage origin to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...
because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.
"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

Modifié par menasure, 21 décembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[Original182]

menasure wrote...

i'd have to replay the whole tower stage to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...

because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.

That's like saying murder is wrong only because the law says so. Maybe that makes the law a power-hungry entity. Murder is against the law because ending lives is wrong, something which only law enforcers are allowed to do, seeing as they're the ones who are allowed to execute people with the death penalty. I just made the law such an evil concept that maybe we should all rebel against the evil law corporation.

Wow seriously, do people actually take that route of thinking? Religious laws are control, but country laws are not? Really?

Murder is wrong, but not just for the sake of it being wrong. The law doesn't say "Murder is wrong" therefore everyone should obey. There must be a reason why they outlaw murder. Same with blood magic.

Not just that, the Chantry also teaches that murder is wrong. Who knows, maybe murder is actually a GOOD thing, but due to Chantry brainwashing, people have been trained to think it is wrong. Therefore everyone should murder one another, because whatever the Chantry says must be wrong right?

The phylactery with blood is akin to DNA samples taken in order to track people down. That way if a mage runs away they can use it to track him/her down. Blood in phylactery is not blood magic. You don't even get to control the mage to come back, how can you even consider it blood magic?

"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

The Templars are the Chantry's army, not mages. Chantry don't use mages as weapons.

[AntiChri5]

Original182 wrote...

menasure wrote...

i'd have to replay the whole tower stage to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...

because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.

That's like saying murder is wrong only because the law says so. Maybe that makes the law a power-hungry entity. Murder is against the law because ending lives is wrong, something which only law enforcers are allowed to do, seeing as they're the ones who are allowed to execute people with the death penalty. I just made the law such an evil concept that maybe we should all rebel against the evil law corporation.

Wow seriously, do people actually take that route of thinking? Religious laws are control, but country laws are not? Really?

Murder is wrong, but not just for the sake of it being wrong. The law doesn't say "Murder is wrong" therefore everyone should obey. There must be a reason why they outlaw murder. Same with blood magic.

Not just that, the Chantry also teaches that murder is wrong. Who knows, maybe murder is actually a GOOD thing, but due to Chantry brainwashing, people have been trained to think it is wrong. Therefore everyone should murder one another, because whatever the Chantry says must be wrong right?

The phylactery with blood is akin to DNA samples taken in order to track people down. That way if a mage runs away they can use it to track him/her down. Blood in phylactery is not blood magic. You don't even get to control the mage to come back, how can you even consider it blood magic?

"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

The Templars are the Chantry's army, not mages. Chantry don't use mages as weapons.

Comparing Blood Magic to murder in this scenario doesnt really work though. Blood magic is used to power spells and control people. People being who they are most will gladly take from others, a blood mage using his own blood to fuel a spell healing someone else is one of the most noble things you cold do. Murder always has a victim, Blood Magic does not. I do not remember any mention of Blood Magic being particularly seductive or corrupting ( as the Dark Side) beyond the simple allure of power and human nature

[menasure]

funny how original put words into my mouth. the law is the law -something you have to obey-, not something good or bad by defenition. just ask dictators all over the world and they will acknowledge that their laws are good.

there are mages at Ostagar ... why is that? because they are used as weapons despite -or because- of the notion that mages in general are feared. but only the selected trusted - controllable ones are there. just play the mage origin and see how far you get if you want to leave the tower. you can not leave the tower unless you have explicit permission or unless you are made a tranquil (with or without your conscent)

Modifié par menasure, 21 décembre 2009 - 11:45 .

[AntiChri5]

Also, the Phylactories are nothing like DNA tests. Where i come from, they don't take a blood sample of everyone at birth (unless ther is some vast conspiracy i am unaware of). They only keep a record of people who have been convicted of crimes. The mage-phylactery thing is more like if a country decided to take DNA samples of all black people at birth, there is nothing wrong with the way they are and even if there was its hardly their fault.

[devilsgrin]

by definition, using the blood in the phylactery to hunt down a mage IS blood magic... The use of blood in any form of magic, according to the Chantry, is Blood Magic. the amount would be too small to control the mage, but using it as a tracking device is using blood magic. It may be a harmless usage, but its still a form of a so-called forbidden magic.



DNA samples, well you could consider that blood magic from a certain perspective.



i won't argue that Blood Magic isn't evil. Considering the way the PC has to learn it... its pretty evil... and i suspect that the element of evil inherent in learning and using blood magic is why Jowan was cut as a Companion. Since all signs point to him having been a planned addition... (i suspect possibly a choice between Jowan and Wynne akin the choice between Alistair and Loghain). And especially considering how likeably pathetic Jowan is... it would be too morally grey for a out of the box companion. (as DLC... well fingers-crossed... i always wanted a 4 mage party - or a least a Male mage option).

[AntiChri5]

devilsgrin wrote...

by definition, using the blood in the phylactery to hunt down a mage IS blood magic... The use of blood in any form of magic, according to the Chantry, is Blood Magic. the amount would be too small to control the mage, but using it as a tracking device is using blood magic. It may be a harmless usage, but its still a form of a so-called forbidden magic.

DNA samples, well you could consider that blood magic from a certain perspective.

i won't argue that Blood Magic isn't evil. Considering the way the PC has to learn it... its pretty evil... and i suspect that the element of evil inherent in learning and using blood magic is why Jowan was cut as a Companion. Since all signs point to him having been a planned addition... (i suspect possibly a choice between Jowan and Wynne akin the choice between Alistair and Loghain). And especially considering how likeably pathetic Jowan is... it would be too morally grey for a out of the box companion. (as DLC... well fingers-crossed... i always wanted a 4 mage party - or a least a Male mage option).

I agree that Blood + magic = Bloodmagic

I disagree about Jowyn. After Stens killing spree, Lelianas past, Zevrens past, morrigans general personality i dont think that they are putting restrictions on companion alignment. especially since you can recruit Loghain. I think Jowyn being cut was due to time

I dont think they are ever trying to stay awy from grey actions. You are after all a grey warden. Also after trading the soul of a child for sex with demon im pretty sure there going wherever they feel like (morality wise).

Modifié par AntiChri5, 21 décembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[Whailor]

Blood magic isn't evil, it's the way the person uses it. Tool is not evil, it depends on the user. Just like I always chuckled when they say in Star Wars stuff "the Dark side of the Force" - there's no "dark side" in the Force as such, the darkness comes from the user. Tools are the same, different people use them differently. Like Avernus tells in Soldier's Peak - no gods deny or call some magic "evil" and prohibit it, it's the short sighted people.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Koralis wrote...

It's not evil per se.. it's dangerous.  The templars can keep mages that know the "accepted" magical practices in check.

Wouldn't be the first time that "evil" was just churchspeak for "threatens the church"... er, chantry.

[AntiChri5]

Nathair Nimheil wrote...

Koralis wrote...

It's not evil per se.. it's dangerous.  The templars can keep mages that know the "accepted" magical practices in check.

Wouldn't be the first time that "evil" was just churchspeak for "threatens the church"... er, chantry.

AntiChri5 approves + 50  

[skotie]

Original182 wrote...

menasure wrote...

i'd have to replay the whole tower stage to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...

because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.

That's like saying murder is wrong only because the law says so. Maybe that makes the law a power-hungry entity. Murder is against the law because ending lives is wrong, something which only law enforcers are allowed to do, seeing as they're the ones who are allowed to execute people with the death penalty. I just made the law such an evil concept that maybe we should all rebel against the evil law corporation.

Wow seriously, do people actually take that route of thinking? Religious laws are control, but country laws are not? Really?

Murder is wrong, but not just for the sake of it being wrong. The law doesn't say "Murder is wrong" therefore everyone should obey. There must be a reason why they outlaw murder. Same with blood magic.

Not just that, the Chantry also teaches that murder is wrong. Who knows, maybe murder is actually a GOOD thing, but due to Chantry brainwashing, people have been trained to think it is wrong. Therefore everyone should murder one another, because whatever the Chantry says must be wrong right?

The phylactery with blood is akin to DNA samples taken in order to track people down. That way if a mage runs away they can use it to track him/her down. Blood in phylactery is not blood magic. You don't even get to control the mage to come back, how can you even consider it blood magic?

"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

The Templars are the Chantry's army, not mages. Chantry don't use mages as weapons.

I understand what your getting at but Blood Magic does not always result in murder or taking someones life. Yes it always harms yourself or someone else however it is very hard to go through life without ever harming someone else.

Just like a weapon blood magic is not inherantly evil, even healing could be used for immoral purposes. Example darkspawn mages using healing magic on other darkspawn, sure they are saveing lives, unfortunately the lives they save only exist to bring more pain, misery and death upon others.

Modifié par skotie, 22 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .