112 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I think the answer lies in its origin. Blood Magic originated from demons.. creatures based off of our worst impulses. Pride, Sloth, Wrath, etc. It is a magic primarily of dominion over others.. by its nature, it is not inherently evil.. it's a tool like a sword, a wagon, or a book.



It was originally used by the Tevinter Imperium to enhance pre-existing spells.. it was not considered its own school at the time. Using blood to make something more powerful.. could easily become evil. Power corrupts.. and if, by killing someone, you will gain more power.. well, it's easy to see where that goes. I believe it even said that the Tevinter mages kept slaves on hand for this reason.



If this, in any way, assists demons.. then I call it evil. But it is still just my perception of it.. in the Dragon Age universe there is no "Universal Standard". The Maker does not show you his score card of good and bad things you have done. You are only privvy to how people percieve you.. namely, your party.



The question is.. do you consider Wynn to be tool of the Chantry? She considers Blood Magic evil. Irving also considers blood magic evil.. and, even if there were no Templars.. he would crush a Blood Mage and subject him/her to the Ritual of Tranquility.



So, these are mages.. mages who probably resent the Chantry and the Templars. Because of this resentment.. they would be more prone to thinking the opposite of their prison-keepers.. and yet, they agree on this topic.



Also.. the only examples of blood mages we get.. are selfish (Jowan) or insane (forget the mages name causing troubles in the tower.)



None of this "proves" Blood Magic is evil.. because that's not the point of Dragon Age.. but it does lend credence to the possibility that it is more aligned with the ways of cruel and brutal men who are not concerned with humilty and compassion.. whether that is evil or not, is up for debate.

[Herr Uhl]

Is it evil? No.



Is it a safety risk? Yes.

[cylriasilver]

menasure wrote...



i'd have to replay the whole mage origin to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...

because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.

"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

I don’t think it’s the Chantry that calls upon mages as weapons. In the game it’s Duncan and the King who call upon the mages, while the templar Gregor opposes mages being pulled into Ostragar. I can’t remember his exact comments, but I also think he’s not so keen on the mages joining your army when you bring the treaties.

While the Chantry does have a lot of clout because of the numbers of their followers, remember it’s the Kings, Queens, and other rulers who make the rules in their countries.

AntiChri5 wrote...



Also, the Phylactories are nothing like DNA tests. Where i come from, they don't take a blood sample of everyone at birth (unless ther is some vast conspiracy i am unaware of). They only keep a record of people who have been convicted of crimes. The mage-phylactery thing is more like if a country decided to take DNA samples of all black people at birth, there is nothing wrong with the way they are and even if there was its hardly their fault.

What are the gun laws like where you live? Just about everywhere in the U.S. you have to register personal information to own a gun (despite a constitutional right to own them). In some places this includes fingerprints.

Mages are similar but they are born with a dangerous power, they didn’t choose it. Stil,l fear of such powers will drive the people to call for such protections.

As for blood magic, which would cause you to worry more? A neighbor with the power to kill you with a lightning bolt, might cause you to be cautious, but if they did, it would be obvious and likely lead to their arrest. Suppose instead that person had the power to force YOU to commit murder and their use of that power wasn’t obvious or detectable. That would lead to YOUR arrest (and possible execution).

[AntiChri5]

cylriasilver wrote...

menasure wrote...

i'd have to replay the whole mage origin to be sure about the blood details but if i remember correctly then blood magic is mainly evil because the chantry says so ...
because there's a phylactery with blood for every mage in their circle kept out of "should the need arise" magical reasons. so it's mainly called evil and forbidden because it has the power to control others ... something which only the chantry is allowed to do.
"magic is meant to serve man, not be ruled over by it". mages are not part of mankind, they're weapons safely stored in their tower for the chantry to use whenever the chantry sees fit.

I don’t think it’s the Chantry that calls upon mages as weapons. In the game it’s Duncan and the King who call upon the mages, while the templar Gregor opposes mages being pulled into Ostragar. I can’t remember his exact comments, but I also think he’s not so keen on the mages joining your army when you bring the treaties.
While the Chantry does have a lot of clout because of the numbers of their followers, remember it’s the Kings, Queens, and other rulers who make the rules in their countries.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, the Phylactories are nothing like DNA tests. Where i come from, they don't take a blood sample of everyone at birth (unless ther is some vast conspiracy i am unaware of). They only keep a record of people who have been convicted of crimes. The mage-phylactery thing is more like if a country decided to take DNA samples of all black people at birth, there is nothing wrong with the way they are and even if there was its hardly their fault.

What are the gun laws like where you live? Just about everywhere in the U.S. you have to register personal information to own a gun (despite a constitutional right to own them). In some places this includes fingerprints.
Mages are similar but they are born with a dangerous power, they didn’t choose it. Stil,l fear of such powers will drive the people to call for such protections.
As for blood magic, which would cause you to worry more? A neighbor with the power to kill you with a lightning bolt, might cause you to be cautious, but if they did, it would be obvious and likely lead to their arrest. Suppose instead that person had the power to force YOU to commit murder and their use of that power wasn’t obvious or detectable. That would lead to YOUR arrest (and possible execution).

The gun laws are a lot more restrictive than America (which i am perfectly comfortable with) but of course records are (and should always be) kept of everyone who owns them. I didn't mean to imply that records not be kept of mages or that the Phylacteries were a bad idea, just that comparing them to DNA tests is a bit off. Is every American born with a gun in hand? Despite what many believe no. It is a personal choice of varying necessity (depending on where you live) Mages have no choice about who they are.

I find it hard to believe that Bloodmagic is always undetectable. To deny the study of blood magic and then say that there is no way to detect it is a bit retarded imo. With a greater study of it, watched over by extremely moral mages like Wynne and the First Enchanter they would likely find ways to detect and counteract it (like the litanny of Adralla)

[Nathair Nimheil]

cylriasilver wrote...Suppose instead that person had the power to force YOU to commit murder and their use of that power wasn’t obvious or detectable. That would lead to YOUR arrest (and possible execution).

Yeah, clearly that person and anyone like them must be immediately murdered just in case, right?

[Ratnix]

cylriasilver wrote...
What are the gun laws like where you live? Just about everywhere in the U.S. you have to register personal information to own a gun (despite a constitutional right to own them).

To correct that. You have to register your personal information to BUY them from a STORE or other Dealer.
You can buy them from places like Swap meets or gun shows or private sales, or in the case of someone like me me, inherit them from my father.
Now here I am talking about rifles and shotguns and such. Pistols on the other hand are a bit different. Getting caught out in public with an unregistered pistol is a whole nother ball game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nothing is evil. Everything is potentially vilifiable.

[Exploding8]

Its evil because the ingame society deemed it so.



In the grand scheme of things nothing is Good and Evil. Good and Evil is a human idea, and what is Good and Evil is ultimately decided by generally accepted ideas of a human society or culture.

[Emerald Melios]

T0paze wrote...

It isn't. It is just feared.
And it's
only feared by the Chantry, maybe because it allows controlling the mind
of other people. The general population is suspicious of all mages,
regardless of whether they're blood mages or not. And that's also due to
the Chantry's influence. And since the Chantry is essentially a bunch
of bigots who want to hold all mages at gunpoint, I wouldn't really
defer to their judgment  in questions concerning the morality of
different forms of magic.

I'm sure that in those areas where the
power of the Chantry is limited (Tevinter?), blood magic is perfectly
normal.

It's because it threatens the Chantry's power.
Considering Andraste might've been a mage herself, as a forbidden tome
inferred, it would show how hypocritical they are (not to mention
explain the Gauntlet and Urn of Sacred Ashes).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Blood magic is evil in the same way that guns are evil.

It's not a problem until you use it on someone.

Yes, but that's the problem, isn't it? Blood magic is made to be used on people.

You might as well that torture is not evil if you use it on your enemy, but it is evil if used upon you. Doesn't work that way.

Actually.....it does work that way, because ultimately everything is subjective. You may not like it, but there it is.

And besides, if Blood Magic is used on the darkspawn......

[Efesell]

Like any other form of power, it's really only as evil as you make it be.



That said, it's rather high up on "potential for abuse" list.

[Venatio]

Its a shame that there such controversy around Blood magic and its associations RP wise because it is one of the best Mage Specializations. Its awesome, I can mind control Ogres for a short amount of time as well as paralyze and damage over time an entire army in one second while paralyzing it normally take 3-5 . The power....

Modifié par Venatio, 21 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Gill Kaiser]

It's not intrinsically evil, it just has the highest capacity for evil and it is the most likely to encourage evil behaviour out of all the schools of magic. Also, it comes from an 'evil' source (taught by demons). When it's unregulated you get things like the Tevinter Imperium sacrificing hundreds of slaves to fuel spells, etc.

However, there's no reason why a blood mage shouldn't use their powers for good. It's not like the Dark Side of the Force... using it doesn't physically or mentally corrupt the user. If they use it often enough they might come to be a bit blasé about other people's life force, though. Also, being able to control other people is widely open to abuse.

[casedawgz]

Blood Wound is criminally overpowered, if that counts.

[Highdragonslayer]

The main fear of blood magic is that it lets you assume direct control of your enemies, which is very bad. A powerful blood mage could have the powers of the universe bend to him. As described in the Circle quest blood mages can assume control of templars, mages, and a powerful one could control the King of a nation. This could makes people think that blood mages are the harbingers of their destruction, while they believe the maker and andraste is the harbinger of their perfection. Also since blood magic is so powerful the blood mage can decide when direct intervention is neccessary to show you true power.

[Gill Kaiser]

Haven't you done this exact joke before?

[Andorfiend]

cylriasilver wrote...

What are the gun laws like where you live? Just about everywhere in the U.S. you have to register personal information to own a gun (despite a constitutional right to own them). In some places this includes fingerprints.

Where did you get that idea? Almost nowhere is this true. Illinois perhaps? You don't 'register' to buy a gun either, you simply leave a record with store you purchase  from.  They are not sent on to a central registry and no effort is made to track gun owners. Things are different if you have a concealed carry permit, but even then they are concerned with the man, not the gun. I have a CCP but the state has no clue what guns I own or even if I own any guns. Automatic weapons are another matter however. They are tracked.

*ahem* Sorry.  On topic a mages ability to kill with a lightning bolt or fireball is unremarkable. Anyone can also kill with a sword or poison. It's the Blood Mages ability to dominate the minds of others that makes them feared and earns them a reputation for evil.

[Palathas]

Yeah, I always thought that a lot of abilities that Blood Magic gives are not much worse than what I normal Mage can learn anyway.
Some of the milder to more severe spells a 'Normal' Mage can use that are as evil as Blood Magic-
Petrify/Winter's Grasp - Turns a living individual to stone or icicle which removes all free will and makes them vulnerable to be shattered into little pieces while they are still conscious and can't defend themselves.
Mana Drain/Drain Life - Drains an individual of life and or essence, much the same as Blood Magic abilities.
Mana Clash - Forcibly drains a Mage of mana to the point that it will most likely destroy the individual, much like some Blood Magic abilities do with life.
Crushing Prison - Encases an enemy within a cage of force which slowly and agonisingly crushes them to death. Seems more like torture to me, pretty evil in my books.
Walking Bomb - Magically forces a acidic venom into the body of the target which, if it kills them, makes them explode and cover any near by individual in acid. This is far more evil than some Blood Magic.
Curse of Mortality - Seriously, how is this one acceptable and Blood Magic not? Curses someone so they can't be healed, don't regenerate and constantly take damage. The Hexes aren't much better.
Paralysis and Mass Paralysis - Removes all free will from a target and holds them in place, no better than any Blood Magic control spells.
I don't think Blood Magic is any more evil than any other form of magic but the Chantry has deemed it abhorrent and told people over generations that it is evil. Then again the Chantry thinks most magic borders on being evil and anyone that can wield it is not far off as well.
Another thing is that Magic is power by Lyrium which the Chantry has a major controlling interest in. Blood being available to everyone is not very controllable by the Chantry unless they kill the person that taps that particular resource.

Modifié par Palathas, 22 mars 2010 - 02:25 .

[Hostetler]

As always - it is about control - The Chantry controls ALL magic, have built an entire dogma around controlling magic, have brainwashed the entire population that magic in genertal is inherently evil without chantry oversight. If thre was 2 things I was able to do in DA - it would be to slaughter every last templar and revered mother and free the elves (another example of chantry control)



Perfect examples - the chantry stood idle when Renden Howe killed the couslands, and tortured people.



whats the difference between smashing someones head open with a mace, or frying them with a fireball - the end result is still dead.

[Gill Kaiser]

Palathas wrote...

Yeah, I always thought that a lot of abilities that Blood Magic gives are not much worse than what I normal Mage can learn anyway.
Some of the milder to more severe spells a 'Normal' Mage can use that are as evil as Blood Magic-
Petrify/Winter's Grasp - Turns a living individual to stone or icicle which removes all free will and makes them vulnerable to be shattered into little pieces while they are still conscious and can't defend themselves.
Mana Drain/Drain Life - Drains an individual of life and or essence, much the same as Blood Magic abilities.
Mana Clash - Forcibly drains a Mage of mana to the point that it will most likely destroy the individual, much like some Blood Magic abilities do with life.
Crushing Prison - Encases an enemy within a cage of force which slowly and agonisingly crushes them to death. Seems more like torture to me, pretty evil in my books.
Walking Bomb - Magically forces a acidic venom into the body of the target which, if it kills them, makes them explode and cover any near by individual in acid. This is far more evil than some Blood Magic.
Curse of Mortality - Seriously, how is this one acceptable and Blood Magic not? Curses someone so they can't be healed, don't regenerate and constantly take damage. The Hexes aren't much better.
Paralysis and Mass Paralysis - Removes all free will from a target and holds them in place, no better than any Blood Magic control spells.
I don't think Blood Magic is any more evil than any other form of magic but the Chantry has deemed it abhorrent and told people over generations that it is evil. Then again the Chantry thinks most magic borders on being evil and anyone that can wield it is not far off as well.
Another thing is that Magic is power by Lyrium which the Chantry has a major controlling interest in. Blood being available to everyone is not very controllable by the Chantry unless they kill the person that taps that particular resource.

The point is not that Blood Magic is more 'evil' in combat, but that it can be used outside combat to insidiously control others for the mage's own ends.

[Tirigon]

skotie wrote...

The title is basically my question. All throughout the game any mage who goes against the chantry's teachings is deemed malificar or an apostate. The biggest problem I have with this is even the mages of the circle are not weak they are quite powerful, yet anytime one of them uses blood magic they are instantly villanous for doing so. Using ones own blood or the blood of your enemies is not necessarily evil, its how you use the magic that makes what you do "evil" or immoral, whatever you want to call it.

This.

However, the Chantry is a religious group. Reality proves that religions don´t need reasons to oppress people, they do it just fine without justifications.
I don´t see why a religion in a game should be any more openminded.

[Lethias]

I think the Chantry says blood magic is evil because Andraste and her followers was fighting against the Tevinter Imperium and tevinter mages used blood magic alot, so they had a "bad experience" to put it that way. And later they took it into they religion and made some mystical story about it, took some Andraste quote and told every people in every temple that it's evil. I don't think the ordinary people in Ferelden even wonder why, they just do as the chantry says, plus they fear mages anyway. Why most mages believe it i don't really get that, why is it more evil to control someones mind than ignite him with a fireball or freeze him, make him into a living bomb etc... So it has religious causes, and maybe they fear mages will become too powerfull with blood magic.
But  execute/make someone tranquil just because he learn blood magic or something is extreme, like using people to fuell your spell, so i guess both religion (old tevinter gods and the chant of light or how the hell they call it) make extreme things right, just because people blindly believe.

Modifié par Lethias, 22 mars 2010 - 02:05 .

[Count Viceroy]

Tirigon wrote...


However, the Chantry is a religious group. Reality proves that religions don´t need reasons to oppress people, they do it just fine without justifications.
I don´t see why a religion in a game should be any more openminded.

Openmindedness, flowers and happy times for all doesn't make a for a  particulary good story either.

As for blood magic, it's dubious history and the fact that chantry can't control it as easily as the other schools is the real reason why it's banned imo. Which is why I think roleplaying a grey warden blood mage has huge potential, you can prove to those dimwits that it's actually just a means to an end, a greater good for all.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 22 mars 2010 - 02:08 .

[MutantSpleen]

It can't be too evil, no one seems to notice when I use it all over the place.

<3 Blood Wound 

[Lethias]

MutantSpleen wrote...

It can't be too evil, no one seems to notice when I use it all over the place.

<3 Blood Wound 

Yeah well thats a bit strange when i defeat Loghain before the whole landsmeet with blood wound and stuff, and no one even notice ...But it's fun ofc i can't deny that :innocent:

And i want to show my blood spells to Wynne's face anyway!

Modifié par Lethias, 22 mars 2010 - 02:20 .

[RedBaron3]

It uses life force to power magic instead of mana. Even if you're using your own life force to power puppies and kittens being healed, you're burning life energy.



Yeah, it's evil.