112 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Frostraven]

Do we have examples of non-obvious mind control ingame, where a blood mage controls someone from afar and have the controlled person speak and act normally?



If not... this discussion is pretty much over.

[FerrisMuertis]

 Wynne has a lot of nasty things to say about blood mages. But she makes a great one. I played her as one and it never affected gameplay whatsoever.

Try this:

-Cast spells as normal until mana is drained
-turn on blood magic
-cast spells like blood wound until health is drained
-turn off blood magic (important step to take full advantage of Vessel of the Spirit)
-switch from Lifedrinker to Anerin's token if you have them
- approach mob
-turn on Vessel of the Spirit

This gives you enough power to finish off all but the longest boss fights without ever quaffing a lyrium potion.

[Gill Kaiser]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Do we have examples of non-obvious mind control ingame, where a blood mage controls someone from afar and have the controlled person speak and act normally?

If not... this discussion is pretty much over.

Yes, Avernus used it to exert control over various lords of the Bannorn to make them support Sophia Dryden's attempted coup.

[Tirigon]

Gill Kaiser wrote...


Yes, Avernus used it to exert control over various lords of the Bannorn to make them support Sophia Dryden's attempted coup.

Then it proves that blood magic is weak, doesn´t it? I mean, the coup failed....

[Raiil]

Tirigon wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...


Yes, Avernus used it to exert control over various lords of the Bannorn to make them support Sophia Dryden's attempted coup.

Then it proves that blood magic is weak, doesn´t it? I mean, the coup failed....

No, because it worked (it being the blood magic, not the coup). He states that he was nudging them, not pulling a Puppetmaster and total control situation over their head.


Magic is magic, and it is neutral because it's not sentient and it possesses no will of its own- it's a tool, and nothing more. However, blood magic is aggressive and offensive- offensive as in the opposite of defensive. Most spells can be used to stop an enemy in their tracks and protect yourself. Blood magic takes the next steps and forces other sentient beings to bend to your will, giving a mage unparalled power. While I would not argue that it's evil, the power it imbues in a human being and the reason that most will go for being a blood mage is enough to warrant prevention. I strongly dislike the Chantry and would happily see it burn to the ground, but I think they're right in not wanting blood magic to be spread. 

Modifié par Valentia X, 22 mars 2010 - 09:28 .

[Lethias]

I really don't get it why using life energy instead of mana is evil at first.

I mean using a healing spell fueled by blood instead of mana on an injured man is more evil than raise someone as corpse with mana, hmm... I think it's just a different technique forbiden by ignorant people.

And for the mind control, it is more evil to force your will on someone with magic than kill someone? Or confuse people with Entropy spells, thats some sort of mind control aswell.

Most of the mage spells are there to hurt/kill people, blood magic is just more effective in it.

I think the fact the Chantry called an exalted marsh on the elves because they worshiped different gods, or on the Tevinter Imperium because they have a male divine who comes from the circle of tevinter, and killing every mage who want to live a free life, without a trial or any question, and making a brainwashed and lyrium addicted templar army etc etc only proves that the Chantry just another repressive religion, without any real reason to forbide blood magic.

[Sarah1281]

You've really got to wonder if Blood Magic is such a problem and the Litany of Adrala can protect against it then why don't they have all mages learn it? According to Wynne it's just a spell - albeit a spell a non-mage can use - and there really should be more copies than just the one. If more people knew/had posession of the Litany than Uldred's little coup would have been overbefore it starte. Irving, at least, should have had it.



And what really annoys me is when you're in the Circle Tower and the blood mage begs you to let her live, your first dialogue choices are all along the lines of 'blood magic is evil'. If you're playing as, say, a dwarf character who immediately heads to the Circle after Lothering than you barely know what blood magic IS let alone have any strong negative feelings about it.

[Palathas]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The point is not that Blood Magic is more 'evil' in combat, but that it can be used outside combat to insidiously control others for the mage's own ends.

Yeah but so can 'Normal' magic. I just used the game mechanics as measurable comparrisons. I guess what I was getting at is that magic is just a tool and tools are not inherently evil, it's who uses the tool and how. I suppose Blood Magic could be considered worse because it can make people do things against their will and make it seem as if they were willingly doing it. It can also be powered by others rather than the mage themselves as with the Redcliffe ritual.

[Addai]

Blood magic is "bad" because the Chantry says it is. Delineate your PC's response to that accordingly.

[krylo]

Couple of things that have come up:

Blood magic can open tears in the veil:  Nope.  Well, not any easier than any OTHER school of magic, anyway.  It can be used to power the spells which do so, but it's not blood magic that allows this.  The tevinter mages didn't use a blood magic spell to open the gateway to the golden city.  They used a combination of lyrium and blood to power a spell designed to rip open the veil to the fade, and the fact that mass deaths weaken the veil in the first place.  In other words, killing a bunch of folks weakened the veil, which made it easier to open it.  The Tevinter mages could have done this by merely murdering all those slaves with fireballs, and using more Lyrium than they had at that time.  The spell to open it wouldn't have been in the blood magic school, which brings me to my next point...

Blood magic can summon/is connected to demons:  Nope, again.  This is demonology.  The two are seperate schools, as is pointed out in a couple of places.  "Uldred must have also dabbled in demonology," for instance.  Emphasis on the also.  I believe Avernus also makes the distinction.  Both schools are forbidden, however, which leaves only those willing to learn forbidden magics learning either.  The result is that most blood mages at least dabble in demonology and vice versa.

Blood magic creates abominations: Once again, this is an aspect not of blood magic, but of demonology.

Blood magic is learned via demons:  All magic can be taught via demons.  It's stated in a few places that the demons know the fade and, therefore, the workings of all magic better than even the most learned mortal mages.  Legend/Chantry says that it was originally taught to the Tevinter mages by the Old Gods, right along side every other form of magic.  The only reason that demonic bargains are the easiest way to learn blood magic is that it is illegal.  So this too, in the way it has been presented in this thread, is false.

Blood magic requires the sacrifice of life energy:  True.  However, that sacrifice need not be unwilling.    Is it evil to sacrifice your own life energy to heal another?  How about to power a fireball being thrown toward your enemies?  Is it evil to power either of those with the life energy of someone other than yourself whom volunteers for it?

Blood magic can control others: Absolutely true.  Even within the confines of game mechanics/the spec the PC learns.  This is, most likely, the real reason it is evil.  The chantry says that magic is made to aid man, and never to rule over him.  By using blood magic to control another--even if it is only to control an enemy combatant and force them to surrender (an arguably 'better' outcome than killing them with fire)--it is still a break of one of the Chant's most sacred tenants.

You may continue your discussion now.

Modifié par krylo, 23 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[Emerald Melios]

Addai67 wrote...

Blood magic is "bad" because the Chantry says it is. Delineate your PC's response to that accordingly.

My newest elf magi warden's response is: "Screw that!" Of course, she is a blood mage herself.

[Ahzrei]

Nothing is truly evil. The Chantry labels it so because... they're the Chantry.

[Sarah1281]

Nothing is truly evil. The Chantry labels it so because... they're the Chantry.

I don't know. I think sacrificing Isolde's life to go into the Fade and then letting the demon keep Connor in exchange for getting laid is probably one of the truly evil things you can do in the game. Learning blood magic from the demon is really, really, really hard to justify but at least it had its uses. Sex? Not so much.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 24 mars 2010 - 04:22 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If you question whether or not blood magic is evil, I suggest reading the Scrolls of Bannastor as you pick them up (it's one of those side quests from the mage's colelctive). Basically, they were written by a blood mage, and explain just where blood magic gets it's power from (and it ain't from the good fade fairies, either).



It is not so much a question of where it is learned from, but what actually powers it. The power of blood magic comes from demons, plain and simple, no matter where you learn it from. It's the demonic energies that bonds/unifies the blood with the spirit/mana to create said energy to fuel spells.



So, yes, I do believe blood magic is pretty evil stuff. Because it's use requires one to draw upon demonic energies, asd opposed to psychic/mana energy. It's all in the source.

[EmperorSahlertz]

krylo wrote...

Couple of things that have come up:

Blood magic can open tears in the veil:  Nope.  Well, not any easier than any OTHER school of magic, anyway.  It can be used to power the spells which do so, but it's not blood magic that allows this.  The tevinter mages didn't use a blood magic spell to open the gateway to the golden city.  They used a combination of lyrium and blood to power a spell designed to rip open the veil to the fade, and the fact that mass deaths weaken the veil in the first place.  In other words, killing a bunch of folks weakened the veil, which made it easier to open it.  The Tevinter mages could have done this by merely murdering all those slaves with fireballs, and using more Lyrium than they had at that time.  The spell to open it wouldn't have been in the blood magic school, which brings me to my next point...

No one knows wether it was the killings itself, the blood or just the vast amount of lyrium which opened that portal. You are taking the mussings of a scholar and stamping it as the truth. For all we know it is the blood resulting from a killing which weakens the veil.

krylo wrote...
Blood magic can summon/is connected to demons:  Nope, again.  This is demonology.  The two are seperate schools, as is pointed out in a couple of places.  "Uldred must have also dabbled in demonology," for instance.  Emphasis on the also.  I believe Avernus also makes the distinction.  Both schools are forbidden, however, which leaves only those willing to learn forbidden magics learning either.  The result is that most blood mages at least dabble in demonology and vice versa.

Blood magic is connected to demons. You can learn this if you read the Scrolls of Banastor. Demonology is the learning of summoning demons and understanding them, blood magic is just drawing power from them (and blood).

krylo wrote...
Blood magic creates abominations: Once again, this is an aspect not of blood magic, but of demonology.

All kinds of magic creates abomination. Though I would agree demonology can summon demons and bind them within objects or persons, theoretically atleast.

krylo wrote...
Blood magic is learned via demons:  All magic can be taught via demons.  It's stated in a few places that the demons know the fade and, therefore, the workings of all magic better than even the most learned mortal mages.  Legend/Chantry says that it was originally taught to the Tevinter mages by the Old Gods, right along side every other form of magic.  The only reason that demonic bargains are the easiest way to learn blood magic is that it is illegal.  So this too, in the way it has been presented in this thread, is false.

It doesn't change the fact that blood magic is irrevesibly connected with demons. All other forms of magic can be studied, relatively, safely.

krylo wrote...
Blood magic requires the sacrifice of life energy: True.  However, that sacrifice need not be unwilling.    Is it evil to sacrifice your own life energy to heal another?  How about to power a fireball being thrown toward your enemies?  Is it evil to power either of those with the life energy of someone other than yourself whom volunteers for it?

So just because a few might volunteer it justifies all the wrongs? I don't think any of the elves volunteered when I sacrficed them. Just the simple potential of all the wrongs which can be done with blood magic outweighs all the good.

krylo wrote...
Blood magic can control others: Absolutely true.  Even within the confines of game mechanics/the spec the PC learns.  This is, most likely, the real reason it is evil.  The chantry says that magic is made to aid man, and never to rule over him.  By using blood magic to control another--even if it is only to control an enemy combatant and force them to surrender (an arguably 'better' outcome than killing them with fire)--it is still a break of one of the Chant's most sacred tenants.

That is a matter of opinion. I've always seen manipulation as dishonesty and wrong (it sure got its uses though). If you can't make an opponent see reason (your reason anyway), forcing him to see your reason by frying his mind is just as bad as gutting him.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Nothing is truly evil. The Chantry labels it so because... they're the Chantry.

I don't know. I think sacrificing Isolde's life to go into the Fade and then letting the demon keep Connor in exchange for getting laid is probably one of the truly evil things you can do in the game. Learing blood magic from the demon is really, really, really hard to justify but at least it had its uses. Sex? Not so much.

This is simply game mechanics.  Did Jowan learn blood magic from a demon in the Fade?  We're not told, but he simply says that he dabbled.  There are other ways to learn blood magic, which is how I justify my PC knowing it whether or not she makes a deal with Connor's demon.

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So just because a few might volunteer it justifies all the wrongs? I don't think any of the elves volunteered when I sacrficed them. Just the simple potential of all the wrongs which can be done with blood magic outweighs all the good.

You could say the same for any weapon.

That is a matter of opinion. I've always seen manipulation as dishonesty and wrong (it sure got its uses though). If you can't make an opponent see reason (your reason anyway), forcing him to see your reason by frying his mind is just as bad as gutting him.

This is a touching sense of honor, but I fear for those under your military command if it's your disposition towards the darkspawn!

[maikel1977]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Smitridel wrote...

Actually, apart from the obvious part that the Templars have no widespread means of counteracting Blood Magic, I believe it's forbidden, due to the fact that you have to make a pact with a demon.
Which on itself, is not generally accepted, even from the apostate's point of view.

That is of course, according to the PC's version of acquiring that art (demon pact).

However, I actually enjoy the whole power comes with the life force cost concept - in comparison to the rest of the "nukish" spells.

Oh...How I wished there was a bad ending for these acrimonious Templars at the Broken Circle storyline. Oh how I wanted to anihilate them...

So how did jowyn learn it? he never went into the fade, so had no contact with demons.

Jowan has gone into the fade. All the game says about Jowan is that he didnt get his Harrowing yet.  It is safe to say that Jowan did in fact make a deal with and learned his magic from a demon. Remember that the fade is where anyone but dwarves go when they dream. Jowan certainly has been in the fade before. Personally i see blood magic as pure evil. Demons teach it, it uses pure life force to fuel spells instead of mana and has a possibility of mind controlling others. How is that not evil ? 

I seriously dont need chantry laws to tell me that making deals with demons, using life force to fuel spells and mind controling other people is wrong ^^ I kinda allready knew that before i even started playing the game
Using life force to fuel spells maybe not so much evil (if it were only your own blood that could be used) as mind controlling and making deals with demons but still.

Modifié par maikel1977, 24 mars 2010 - 03:42 .

[Addai]

You don't need to learn blood magic directly from a demon. In the confrontation with Wynne and Irving that was cut from the game, your PC mentions books that the Grey Wardens have which teach blood magic. Granted, you're probably pulling that out of your ass in that context, but Wynne does not dispute that one can learn it that way, only that she doesn't believe you had access to such training because you're a new recruit. Uldred was teaching blood magic to his apprentices. I actually, in my RP mind, consider my mage PC Uldred's apprentice rather than Irving's.

[Addai]

maikel1977 wrote...
Jowan has gone into the fade. All the game says about Jowan is that he didnt get his Harrowing yet. 

Every human "goes into the Fade," but as you point out, we do not know how Jowan learned his blood magic.

 

Personally i see blood magic as pure evil. Demons teach it, it uses pure life force to fuel spells instead of mana and has a possibility of mind controlling others. How is that not evil ? 

It is but a tool, and a powerful one.  Even demons themselves are not "evil" purely by category, rather by the corruption of their desires (as Justice will tell you).

My mage PC learned blood magic because she took every opportunity to study the ancient magic of the elves, including those of Tevinter.  When she saw how powerful the darkspawn emissaries are compared to the pathetic Circle mages, she realized that arbitrarily tying the hands of the good guys was potentially going to doom humanity.  Also, one does not always have access to lyrium, as in the case of Connor and Isolde.  Would you rather hang on to your scruples and be dead, and/or see your companions dead?  Or would you rather have another form of magic at your disposal?

[wcholcombe]

Blood magic was involved in the events that led to the creation of the darkspawn.

It was first taught to man by the old gods and led to the magister lords using it to control people

It does lead to weakening of the viel--no no demons ever attack you in game, but I have always thought that should happen if you are a mage period, especially if you are bloodmage, but they didn't use it.



Those basic reasons come from the lore section of the strategy guide and have nothing to do with the chantry.



Now on the subject of magic--All magic didn't originate in Tevinter, but Tevinter is the country that is most closely associated with magic because of the position mages hold in their government.

[maikel1977]

Addai67 wrote...

You don't need to learn blood magic directly from a demon. In the confrontation with Wynne and Irving that was cut from the game, your PC mentions books that the Grey Wardens have which teach blood magic. Granted, you're probably pulling that out of your ass in that context, but Wynne does not dispute that one can learn it that way, only that she doesn't believe you had access to such training because you're a new recruit. Uldred was teaching blood magic to his apprentices. I actually, in my RP mind, consider my mage PC Uldred's apprentice rather than Irving's.

I dont get that, how can you even try to argue with something that is not in the game ?
And even if that were true, who wrote those books or generated the knowledge for them ? Whichever way you put it, the knowledge of blood magic originates from demons...period.

Not having access to bloodmagic is a mere presumtion. And an incorrect 1 at that. No wonder they cut that scene
Everyone with conscious access to the fade (=any mage) can make deals with demons and learn blood magic.
Thats the sole reason of having templars watching the circle all the time and forcing aprentices to undergo the harrowing.

Modifié par maikel1977, 24 mars 2010 - 04:13 .

[Caldarin V]

From what I've read/gathered from the game, the main problem with blood magic seems to be its addictive aspect. Not sure where, but I remember hearing about how bloodmages start using their own, but then want more power, so start draining other living creatures ect.



I think the chantry doesn't like it because it attracts demons more than just regular magic (maybe?)

[Sarah1281]

I don't know. I think sacrificing Isolde's life to go into the Fade and then letting the demon keep Connor in exchange for getting laid is probably one of the truly evil things you can do in the game. Learing blood magic from the demon is really, really, really hard to justify but at least it had its uses. Sex? Not so much.

This is simply game mechanics. Did Jowan learn blood magic from a demon in the Fade? We're not told, but he simply says that he dabbled. There are other ways to learn blood magic, which is how I justify my PC knowing it whether or not she makes a deal with Connor's demon.

I don't see how that's game mechanics. When the demon offers you a deal for Connor's soul, you can pick having sex, learning blood magic, or higher approval with a companion. There may be other options, but I don't remember them. I'm not sure how in-game the higher approval choice works (maybe using blood magic to influence them) but if you say 'teach me blood magic and you can keep Connor' and don't use the circle then you are sacrificing Isolde's life to buy Connor a little time and learn blood magic. Is it difficult to justify? Yes. Could it also be very useful towards ending the Blight? Also yes. Sacrificing Isolde and gong with the 'you can keep Connor if I can have sex with you' option is in no way understandable or justifiable.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't see how that's game mechanics. When the demon offers you a deal for Connor's soul, you can pick having sex, learning blood magic, or higher approval with a companion.

It is game mechanics that the only way to unlock the specialization is by doing the deal with Connor's demon, whereas in "real Thedas life" there are other ways to learn blood magic.  And once the specialization is unlocked, you could take blood mage specialization long before you ever encounter Connor's demon.  So RP-wise it may not even make sense to say that the Warden "has" to learn blood magic that way.