53 réponses à ce sujet

[Jitawa]

Was it just me, or did the PC's nightmare seem the most unconvincing of the lot?  The demon seemed to attempt things that were relevant to the life of all the other characters, while Duncan - even in the best case scenario - is someone you hardly knew.   Even if you do the Tower last, your time as a Grey Warden is paltry at best. 

The fantasy/nightmare is sketchy to begin with too, the illusions are presumably real for the people in them in the other cases, but great fortress as Duncan calls it looks like nothing of the sort.  It looks like a ruined platform with no other rooms or furnishings to speak of, and two guys just loitering. 

Considering the content of most of the nightmares, wouldn't it have made more sense to have your nightmare referencing your origin, perhaps a scenario where things didn't go wrong?  It seems like a given that all the origin stories would probably provide more convincing dream fodder than some guy you hardly know standing on a rock.  If it's made to be convincing to the dreamer, even setting it in the fade seems unwise, perhaps having it look like a normal area with cracks becoming more obvious as you poke around.

[Vicious]

This what people call a 'missed opportunity.'

[mousestalker]

Agreed. Maybe the demon worked for Walmart at some point? It certainly seemed as though it were trying to get by with the least quality possible.

[Time4Tiddy]

Of course, the challenge to this is the fourth wall is already broken. You (the player) already know that a demon is controlling what you see, so why waste a lot of time on it? It would be MORE believable if you continued through the tower not realizing that you had transitioned into the Fade, so that the player was tricked as well.

[Kevin Lynch]

I agree, and thought the same. It definitely should have referenced your origin (or something more backstory to your character that's pleasant enough to keep you there). The mistake is in assuming that a Grey Warden, after destroying the darkspawn, would want to be relaxing anyway. My characters, in camp, have commented that they want to continue roaming the land or whatnot and yet this isn't reflected in the Fade nightmare.



It would have been better, I suppose, if you were given a set of choices at some earlier point in the game, where it would be unrelated to the Fade, to say what you would find most pleasant and then the nightmare take on characteristics from that. It was short enough that it wouldn't have been a lot of extra effort, but it would have been a definite improvement.

[Alastrian]

Yeah... not only does the PC not know Duncan for very long, it is almost absolutely certain that they haven't been to the Anderfels, and I imagine all they would have heard of Weisshaupt Fortress was when Alistair briefly mentioned it in dialogue when asked where other Grey Wardens might be.



The idea of the sloth demon tricking you into thinking you were still progressing through the tower sounds like it would have been awesome.

[mousestalker]

What would have been great, if fairly expensive, is if they had used the happier endings that are actually possible in the game. Being made Paragon for the dwarf origins, being a Bann for the alienage with city elf, Howe's head stuffed and mounted on the mantelpiece for Human Noble. That sort of thing.

[Jitawa]

Alastrian wrote...

Yeah... not only does the PC not know Duncan for very long, it is almost absolutely certain that they haven't been to the Anderfels, and I imagine all they would have heard of Weisshaupt Fortress was when Alistair briefly mentioned it in dialogue when asked where other Grey Wardens might be.

The idea of the sloth demon tricking you into thinking you were still progressing through the tower sounds like it would have been awesome.

In the mage origin, at the end of the harrowing you're told the test or some such never ends.  I played through most of the rest of the origin thinking I was still in the Fade, still being tested.  Of course that's not the case, but it's what I thought was happening.

The fourth wall issues are worth noting, but having you "seemingly" kill the Sloth demon perhaps.. and have Irving appear and tell you that the tower is saved, and then loading up the fantasy might've helped I guess.  However, the game is already in the habit of restricting character choice for the sake of a more persuasive narrative.  I believe David has already said as much.  In this case, putting in the effort to make the nightmare more origin relevant, regardless of the fact that "you" as the player would know it was fake, would make for a better narrative.

I think generally, more ties to the origin would've been good though.  The base of your character, the many years spent in the origin as an identity seems to become completely subsumed by the grey warden identity, which you're forced into for the most part, and have very little time vested in it to speak of.

Modifié par Jitawa, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:36 .

[jakasywa]

PC's nightmare indeed seems somehow "get it over with and proceeed to save others".

I think that the demon just missed some time to get to us - if he was better prepared the nightmare would be much better. Notice that our friends from the team are in their nightmares longer then we do. And we have to remember that we are the chosen ones... Like in every game....

And as a last thing: our characters are new to those supernatural things like demons and darkspawn (I mean confronting them by themselves) - maybe the thing is that the recent ritual of joining had the greatest impact on us mixed with the facts that happened earlier.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Oghren - believes he is back in tapsters tavern
Alastair - even if he hasn't mentioned her to you, believes he is at goldana's and living a nice life
Sten - at a camp with his fellow scouts, but he knows it is a dream "but it is a good dream"
Wynne - standing with a bunch of mages thinking she has failed them.
Morrigan - being scolded and slapped by Flemeth, like Sten knows it ain't real because the demon failed to fully act like Flemeth to begin with
Leliana - back at the Chantry, living the ideal life she had sought.
Shale - stuck back at honnleath, snaps out of it soon as you get there
Wardog - sleeping happily
Zevran - Some sort of Crows initiation of pain endurance
PC (no matter what origin) - at Weisshaupt (which the player might not know about) with Duncan trying to make you believe you just woke up from a sleep and telling you the fight with the darkspawn is over (despite telling you it is an ongoing struggle and if you were a dwarf you really wouldn't be able to believe it).

Out of them all, the only one I would truly class as a 'nightmare' is Wynne's, Morrigan's in my opinion is just as weak as the player because she knows it is a demon but for some reason can't be bothered to fight it and do what the PC does in looking for a way out. I think Alastairs is weak because you don't get to question him about it once you are out. Which going on the basis of you having not had mention of Goldana, seems a bit odd. The rest of them I can relate to, Sten knows it is a dream but as quoted he is happy in it.

I agree that really it would have been better for the PC dream to relate to the origin as if all the events leading to it from where the origin ended had been a dream. Here are some ideas I have for the various origins.

Human Noble - Need to actually skip a beat here and have it that it goes on the principle of Howe NOT attacking the cousland residence and you are awoken by your mother and she stating how you are now in charge of the castle. Eleanor is the demon.

Mage - Could go on the emphasis that you got took to 'The Aeonar' with lily and you are both in a cell wondering what is going to happen. Lily is the demon.

Dwarf Commoner - wake up back in the cells in Beraht's hideout with Jarvia and the guard mocking you from afar (so you can't do any of the things you did originally), could even throw in a nice nod to what other origins encounter when they get to the cells, though obviously you don't give up and realise its a dream and escape the trap. Leske, Jarvia and the guard are all demons.

Dwarf Noble - wake up in your room, gorim states how Trian is killed but they found evidence to connect Behlen to the crime and thus his plan to frame you was foiled, you are now all setup to become King/Queen of Orzammar. Gorim and/or your father is the demon

Dalish Elf - wake up in the ruins with the mirror, tamlen is standing over you stating you've been unconcious for a few hours, you need to get out of the ruins but there is no exit. Tamlen is of course the demon.

City Elf - back home, with Shianni and your father doing a complete repeat of the first conversations as if none of the story happened, but you can't for some reason leave the house. Shianni and dad are the demons.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I'm glad other people are a bit disappointed with the PC nightmare scenarios. It makes no sense, really, as a Character, to have Duncan and the Fortress. Each nightmare is represenative of something deep and signifigant to each character on a very personal level. Either you aren't in the grey Wardens long enough for Duncan to be that signifigant to you, you didn't really care for Duncan that much, or your own past has more a hold.



I agree the Duncan scenario would have been more fitting for Alistair.

[Adria Teksuni]

I kept waiting to get to my nightmare, I thought it was just some sort of introduction to it. The first time I played I was a human noble, and I kept expecting my brother to show up demanding to know why I had left mother and father to die or some such, or that he had killed Arl Howe and managed to reunite the land under the Cousland banner and was succeeding in ousting Loghain.



The nightmares were such rich fodder, and yeah, I regret that there wasn't more to it.

[Kyogen]

I don't mind the story of the PC nightmare, but it would have been nice to extend it a little and change some of the gameplay features to support/reflect the dialogue options showing that the PC is confused and disorientated. Ubisoft's "Beyond Good and Evil" tried reversing the controls and slowing PC reaction time for an action sequence in which the character is not fully in control of herself. It was a nice little innovation for what might otherwise have been a routine boss battle. CRPG gameplay is a different animal of course, but some kind of alteration just for the nightmare sequence of the Fade could have added an extra level of believability and challenge.

[Bullets McDeath]

I too wish the transition to the Fade had been less obvious and that the PC's "personal dream" was tied to their origin and not to being a Grey Warden. Definitely a missed oppurtunity, but it's still a great part.

[TheMadCat]

Well I don't think the Sloth demon actually sought to put you in a nightmare, rather a dream to keep you contempt until it was to late. Wynne being the exception and I never truly understood why, perhaps she enjoys failure?



All were fairly well done per character I thought, though the PC I agree should have been based more around a happier ending towards your origin story as it makes little sense that being with Duncan at Weisshaupt would be your happiest moment. Of course perhaps that's why your PC was able to see through the charade while most of the others could not, it just didn't make any sense.

[Cybercat999]

I agree completely. I vote for Cullen in my *nightmare*.

Modifié par Cybercat999, 20 décembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[andybuiadh]

Cybercat999 wrote...

I agree completely. I vote for Cullen in my *nightmare*.

Pfft! That's a dream.  Leliana would be accompanying me on mine!

But I agree with the OP, I guess it was just too much work for BW to implement?

[Cybercat999]

andybuiadh wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

I agree completely. I vote for Cullen in my *nightmare*.

Pfft! That's a dream.  Leliana would be accompanying me on mine!

But I agree with the OP, I guess it was just too much work for BW to implement?

So what? Alistair gets a happy dream with his sister so why I cant get the same thing with Cullen?

Pretty please? *bats her eyelashes at Sloth demon*

[LaztRezort]

While I enjoyed a lot of the fade sequences, I, too, felt there were many missed opportunities there. They were probably left on the cutting room floor due to deadline, along with many other things.



Maybe we'll get some more inspired fade romps in future DLC?

[TheMadCat]

Nah, I rather DLC add to the story rather then go back and improve upon areas already there. Unless they go back and re-do the final 30-60 minutes prior to the epilogue, I might pay for that as it was the only truly disappointing section of the game for me.



If you mean perhaps add another quest where you get sent to the fade, that might be interesting though I'm not sure how it could be done differently then it already was.

[LaztRezort]

TheMadCat wrote...

If you mean perhaps add another quest where you get sent to the fade, that might be interesting though I'm not sure how it could be done differently then it already was.

That's more along the lines of what I was suggesting.  But, then again, at this point it may just seem reduntant seeing the fade again, unless it was a truly different experience.

[Rainen89]

Yeah, it would've made sense for that to be Alistair's dream, but not the PC's. Especially since it's entirely possible for the PC to HATE being a warden and Duncan to boot.

[andybuiadh]

Notice that Alistair dreams Goldanna to look exactly how she really does look, regardless that he hasn't met her.

[Rainen89]

He's been secretly stalking her for years. How else did he magically know where her house was?