60 réponses à ce sujet

[fightright2]

For me, even though I was given the three icons of "intent" (Diplomatic, Humorous, Aggressive) it seemed the comments spat out by my PC often didn't line up with the paraphrasing that I chose from. So it was that out of boredom of constantly choosing the first option I decided to chose Humorous now and then based upon the paraphrasing only to concluded that I wished my PC had actually just said the paraphrased part.

Why? The paraphrasing seemed logical but the actual response didn't have the equal effect to that which was paraphrased.  Many of times I wasn't sure what my PC was going to say. And really, upon hearing what came out despite what the paraphrasing said, I felt like I was playing a 50%/50% of whether my PC blurted out sarcastic irony or embarrassingly ended up sticking my foot in my mouth. All the while thinking my choices shouldn't be a shock or regret to me that I instead choose to reload.

I think what it is, is that the trouble of having just Diplomatic, Humorous, and Aggressive as our "intents" the jokes spat out in Humorous aren't always specific even with paraphrasing since it they can fall under playful or insulting; good-natured or indifferent/inconsiderate .
And because of that Humorous can imply negatively leaving us with all three options as:  Objective yet civil, Inconsiderate and careless(i.e. insert foot), and Maliciously hostile/rude.  

Yet Humorous for example can even be used in such a way that it can be a show of sympathy, (think of Breakfast Club where John Bender says upon the light of Andrew's parent, "I think your old man and my old man should go bowling.") It showed a light-hearted comparison that got a few smiles out of the other characters as well as the viewer.

Ridicule/humiliate can fall under both Humorous and Aggressive as it can be used playfully in jest or as a taunt to provoke.

Having intents really would broaden our options and specify what our PC would say. To think of what it would mean to have specifics beforehand when you select Humorous... sympathize, cheer up, encourage, demoralize, insult, ridicule, or just plain annoy.

If we can't see exactly what we are going to say and the paraphrasing so far has been a failure for some, intents not only seem logical, it really would be beneficial for us to know beforehand just HOW the next comment/option will sound. And that's all we really want to know so we can safely choose without wincing.

[Olmerto]

I am really incredulous at how many people here have trouble with DA2's dialog. I have completed two playthroughs, once as a humorous/diplomatic male warrior, and once as an aggressive female mage, and I had ZERO issues with my character saying something that was at odds with the response I selected. ZERO. I am a long-time RPG player and I thought all the dialog was fine.

At most, I noted that sometimes if you switched from diplomatic to aggressive in the same conversation, your tone sometimes was inconsistent, but that goes with the territory. It's not perfect. But that could happen even if you had the entire response text before you with a voiced protagonist.

I'd also note that not all red responses were aggressive; some were merely "direct" (the gavel), and I thought that was an accurate representation of the line that followed the paraphrase. But if you select the "aggressive" option, can you then complain that you got a line delivered rudely? And if your diplomatic reply seemed too rude, then you just have to consider that it was the most diplomatic thing your character could say in that instance -- the other choices would have been worse! Of course, there are also many different kinds of humor from joking to sarcasm, and that's within the range of judgment of the writers. This is a script with voice actors interpreting it; it's not your mind and your interpretation, as it is with a silent PC.

I can only conclude that many are being hypercritical of game dialog for reasons I can well imagine, but I won't speculate. It's not going to be as "precise" as the player being given full text with a silent protagonist, where your imagination supplies the tone. But that, again, is part and parcel of a voiced protagonist, which is here to stay.

Bioware can always seek to refine their system, but in large part I would suggest that we should begin to adjust our expectations to the new reality and limitations of voiced characters and the honest efforts of Bioware to provide the best dialog experience they can for the medium. And as they always note, they can't hope to please everyone who finds their solutions unacceptable.

[Xewaka]

Olmert wrote...
I am really incredulous at how many people here have trouble with DA2's dialog. I have completed two playthroughs, once as a humorous/diplomatic male warrior, and once as an aggressive female mage, and I had ZERO issues with my character saying something that was at odds with the response I selected. ZERO. I am a long-time RPG player and I thought all the dialog was fine.

I see in your tag you own Mass Effect 2. If you have a save near it, have the Horizon conversation with the Virmire Survivor; only this time, assume your Shepard wants to hide his involvement with Cerberus for whatever reason. With that in mind (Shepard must refrain from speaking about Cerberus), try to navigate the dialogue, then count the times you had to reload because the paraphrase was completely silent in that regard either way.
Then you'll understand the issues with paraphrases.

[LobselVith8]

Olmert wrote...

I am really incredulous at how many people here have trouble with DA2's dialog. I have completed two playthroughs, once as a humorous/diplomatic male warrior, and once as an aggressive female mage, and I had ZERO issues with my character saying something that was at odds with the response I selected. ZERO. I am a long-time RPG player and I thought all the dialog was fine.

Considering that the paraphrasing didn't match what Hawke actually said, to the point where it was pointless because Hawke said something entirely different (such as Hawke's line to Elthina, where the dialogue line reads, "You're useless," but Hawke screams out, "Get out of my way!"). If the paraphrasing is so bad that the dialogue options give almost no indication of what the protagonist will say, then there will be people who have problems with the system.

[Olmerto]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the paraphrasing didn't match what Hawke actually said, to the point where it was pointless because Hawke said something entirely different (such as Hawke's line to Elthina, where the dialogue line reads, "You're useless," but Hawke screams out, "Get out of my way!"). If the paraphrasing is so bad that the dialogue options give almost no indication of what the protagonist will say, then there will be people who have problems with the system.

I used that response, and while I interpreted "you're useless" differently from the actual line, that didn't create any problem for me.  There isn't any material difference between the two IMO, so 6 of one, half dozen etc, right?

What I'm saying is that there are always going to be a few surprises no doubt in the actual line, but that is to be expected to some extent, and inevitable -- even if the full text is given, just because of the VA's tone.  I never felt that I "lost control" of the dialog (except for some autodialog, which is a different matter).

I have read a lot about this issue on the forum, so I know many have complained.  But I, as an "old school" PC gamer, do not see it.  I could play with silent or voiced character, doesn't matter, but I *do* understand the ramifications of having it voiced and accept that.  Moreover, I feel BW does a great job with the paraphrasing in most cases.  I feel another view just needs to be articulated on this matter, because I can't believe everyone feels this way.

Modifié par Olmert, 03 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[Olmerto]

Xewaka wrote...

I see in your tag you own Mass Effect 2. If you have a save near it, have the Horizon conversation with the Virmire Survivor; only this time, assume your Shepard wants to hide his involvement with Cerberus for whatever reason. With that in mind (Shepard must refrain from speaking about Cerberus), try to navigate the dialogue, then count the times you had to reload because the paraphrase was completely silent in that regard either way.
Then you'll understand the issues with paraphrases.

Yeah, that seems like a problem to me.  I don't remember the issue from my playthrough, admittedly, but I'll grant you that that instance would create an issue.  But I'd say that was an error in execution, not in principle.  And again, I'm not saying there are no mistakes, but by and large the system works well for me and I wouldn't want full text given, or other indicia of intent, in a voiced protagonist game.

I would encourage Bioware to keep on doing it their way, but look to hone and refine their skill.  I often enjoy the humor in the paraphrasing, like "I want to be a dragon".

[LobselVith8]

Olmert wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the paraphrasing didn't match what Hawke actually said, to the point where it was pointless because Hawke said something entirely different (such as Hawke's line to Elthina, where the dialogue line reads, "You're useless," but Hawke screams out, "Get out of my way!"). If the paraphrasing is so bad that the dialogue options give almost no indication of what the protagonist will say, then there will be people who have problems with the system.

I used that response, and while I interpreted "you're useless" differently from the actual line, that didn't create any problem for me.  There isn't any material difference between the two IMO, so 6 of one, half dozen etc, right?

The actual line is "Get out of my way!" It doesn't match the listed dialogue in tone or meaning. The issue is, "You're useless" isn't remotely similar to "Get out of my way!" when the two lines convey entirely different things. This is a problem throughout the narrative, where the dialogue reads one thing, but Hawke will verbally say something else entirely.

Olmert wrote...

What I'm saying is that there are always going to be a few surprises no doubt in the actual line, but that is to be expected to some extent, and inevitable -- even if the full text is given, just because of the VA's tone.  I never felt that I "lost control" of the dialog (except for some autodialog, which is a different matter).

If you admit that the above example shows how choosing one dialogue option can have Hawke say something entirely distinct from that choice, how did you remain in control the entire time? Perhaps you simply don't care?

Olmert wrote...

I have read a lot about this issue on the forum, so I know many have complained.  But I, as an "old school" PC gamer, do not see it.  I could play with silent or voiced character, doesn't matter, but I *do* understand the ramifications of having it voiced and accept that.  Moreover, I feel BW does a great job with the paraphrasing in most cases.  I feel another view just needs to be articulated on this matter, because I can't believe everyone feels this way.

If the paraphrased lines of dialogue don't match what is verbally spoken by Hawke, I don't see how Bioware did a "great job" at all.

[Maria Caliban]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

...its much easier to know the intent of the PC when you see the full dialogue...

It's much easier to know the intent of the PC when the intent is stated.

[Beerfish]

I have felt that BioWare 'generally' does a decent job of this except for a few cases where they REALLY miss the mark and have the player totally befuddled by the character not saying at all what they thought he/she might say. Instead of "No, I don't think it's a good idea." they say "No way! I am going to burn down this barn full of kittens in that case!"

[Nomen Mendax]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's much easier to know the intent of the PC when the intent is stated.

picture snipped

Agreed.

And @Olmert, while I'm glad that you don't have problems with the paraphrase system, I do; nor am I being hypercritical of the game for same unstated but presumably nefarious reason.  I'm not going to be melodramatic and say that it completely ruins the game for me, but it certainly makes it significantly less enjoyable.  I can't give you a reason for why you don't find it a problem and I do.  I will say that I still want a game that allows me to play my character rather than Biowares's.  Obviously having the game voiced makes this harder but I find that all too often the paraphrasing makes it impossible.

One of the reasons I prefer intent to paraphrases is that I find that with the paraphrase system my character says something that contradicts what I thought they were going to say when I read the paraphrase.  Since intent doesn't describe what the PC is going to say my expectation is that the player won't experience this contradiction (or at least not as often).

There have also been times in both MEx and DA2 where the PC does or says something that I was not expecting at all from the paraphrase, and I think this can be avoided by using intent.

[Olmerto]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The actual line is "Get out of my way!" It doesn't match the listed dialogue in tone or meaning. The issue is, "You're useless" isn't remotely similar to "Get out of my way!" when the two lines convey entirely different things. This is a problem throughout the narrative, where the dialogue reads one thing, but Hawke will verbally say something else entirely.

"You're useless" could mean a number of different things, one of which would be "there's no point in dealing with you", for example.  "Get out of my way" can mean, literally, to let me pass, physically, or perhaps "don't even bother involving yourself in my business [because you're useless]."  It's not totally unfathomable as you imply.  It may, again, be poor execution, or it might just be that it's a little off and the intent of the line WAS essentially that Elthina was useless.  But this is just parsing out a given instance, and only shows me that maybe there was an issue in execution, not in principle.

As for the tone, do you really believe that the tone of "get out of my way!" would differ materially from telling her that "you're useless"?  I don't.  Both are dismissive and insulting, and that's why I don't think it mattered much.

If you admit that the above example shows how choosing one dialogue option can have Hawke say something entirely distinct from that choice, how did you remain in control the entire time? Perhaps you simply don't care?

 

I noticed, at the time, that it was a little off, but as I said I didn't find the discrepancy material.  So, you are correct that I didn't care.

If the paraphrased lines of dialogue don't match what is verbally spoken by Hawke, I don't see how Bioware did a "great job" at all.

Because I feel that the vast majority of paraphrases were quite reasonable, and conveyed sufficient content to anticipate the actual response.  I also feel that many of you disregard the problem that Bioware has repeatedly noted that you simply can't give the full text in a voiced dialog game.  It doesn't work, and doing so would make the dialog very pedestrian.

I'm currently playing Deus Ex HR -- a game many here point to as exemplary of voiced dialog -- and I find its dialog to be more pedestrian than DA2.  I don't believe that you have more dialog choices in that game.  It's usually fewer.  Also, the listing of the intent there is less satisfactory to me than DA2's icons, which I felt worked very well once you acclimated to them.  The dialog in DE:HR seems very simplistic compared the DA2, and the voice acting much less talented and dynamic.  It's all said in the same tone, which admittedly makes it easier to interchange responses.  The DA2 dialog has a much wider range of emotion in the responses, which I appreciate.  I would hate to get dialog that was all deadpan just so the replies were totally interchangeable.  That's just my preference. YMMV.

But, as I've said, it wouldn't hurt for Bioware to take stock of these particular problems in an effort to refine their craft.  And I believe Bioware is very adept at their craft, and are professional about it.

[Wulfram]

I think the amount the system will annoy you will vary from person to person. And also from character to character - depending if your conception of Hawke lines up well with what Bioware are writing for. For subsequent playthroughs I knew that Hawke had to be kind of snooty, and also very expressive and outgoing, which helped the character fit with the voice acting.

There were IIRC only one or two occasions when I totally misunderstood or really hated the paraphrase - the one I remember is that talking to Merrill's clan after spoily event, I understood "I'll take responsibility" as "it was my fault". But there were quite a few occasions when the reply was just enough off to make me feel it didn't quite fit the character.

[Nomen Mendax]

Olmert wrote...
...

I also feel that many of you disregard the problem that Bioware has repeatedly noted that you simply can't give the full text in a voiced dialog game.  It doesn't work, and doing so would make the dialog very pedestrian.

...

I disagree with this, I see no reason why you can't give full text as an option in a voiced game.  Bioware's reasons for not doing this (as I have understood them) is because it doesn't work with the dialogue wheel (to which there is an obvious solution) and, much more importantly, because it doesn't work with a more cinematic presentation.  I take the latter to mean that you can't give full text responses where a single user response generates multiple lines of PC dialogue, i.e. where an entire conversation is generated from a single user interaction with the interface.

I'm arguing that paraphrases don't work well for this kind of cinematic presentation either, whereas intent combined with tone does.

[Olmerto]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

And @Olmert, while I'm glad that you don't have problems with the paraphrase system, I do; nor am I being hypercritical of the game for same unstated but presumably nefarious reason.  I'm not going to be melodramatic and say that it completely ruins the game for me, but it certainly makes it significantly less enjoyable.  I can't give you a reason for why you don't find it a problem and I do.  I will say that I still want a game that allows me to play my character rather than Biowares's.  Obviously having the game voiced makes this harder but I find that all too often the paraphrasing makes it impossible.

One of the reasons I prefer intent to paraphrases is that I find that with the paraphrase system my character says something that contradicts what I thought they were going to say when I read the paraphrase.  Since intent doesn't describe what the PC is going to say my expectation is that the player won't experience this contradiction (or at least not as often).

There have also been times in both MEx and DA2 where the PC does or says something that I was not expecting at all from the paraphrase, and I think this can be avoided by using intent.

I think it's inherent in voiced dialog that the character will be more of Bioware's than yours.  The VA supplies the tone, and that takes something away from you.  There's not much Bioware can do about this except to take alot of the emotion out of it, or spell out so much to you that the dialog system becomes clumsy.

I do not find the "intent" indications in, say, Deus Ex HR to be more effective than Bioware's icons.  There is now a bit of anxiety associated with the exact reply given, but I've never felt that one of my game choices was compromised by a paraphrase.  Not to any greater degree than when we had full text for silent characters.  I also feel that Bioware intends to create some suspense in their dialog with the paraphrases.  I just think that's now part of the game and they don't want you to be certain what is going to happen next.  But when they do that -- and they did the same thing with full text dialog in earlier games -- it doesn't matter what dialog choice you make, you're probably going to be a little surprised, because that's what they want.

IMO, you shouldn't criticize the paraphrase system.  You should talk to Bioware about their writing generally, because it's not really the paraphrase system that's bothering you.  If they wanted, they could clearly write paraphrases that corresponded more certainly to the actual response.  But isn't it obvious that they often try to be a little wry in their paraphrase style?  Sure.  And that's how they roll.

[Xewaka]

Olmert wrote...

Yeah, that seems like a problem to me.  I don't remember the issue from my playthrough, admittedly, but I'll grant you that that instance would create an issue.

"That instance" is the entire gameplay for me. I choose the Horizon conversation because it is an undeniable example of the core problem inherent to paraphrasing, but at every turn, lacking the knowledge on what the character will say - and will not say - makes the game unplayable for me. What's the point in choosing dialogue when what the character says is, effectively, a random guess?

Olmert wrote...
I'm currently playing Deus Ex HR -- a game many here point to as exemplary of voiced dialog -- and I find its dialog to be more pedestrian than DA2.  I don't believe that you have more dialog choices in that game.  It's usually fewer.  Also, the listing of the intent there is less satisfactory to me than DA2's icons, which I felt worked very well once you acclimated to them.

Have you actually seen the Deus Ex dialogue? Look at the screenshot up there. The diamond shows the intent. When an option is highlighted, it reproduces as much dialogue as it can fit in the screen. It is much more informative and helpful in making the choice. Regardless of the inspiration in the writing, Deus Ex is much more succesful at presenting information to the player.

Modifié par Xewaka, 03 août 2012 - 10:42 .

[jillabender]

Olmert wrote…

I think it's inherent in voiced dialog that the character will be more of Bioware's than yours. The VA supplies the tone, and that takes something away from you. There's not much Bioware can do about this except to take alot of the emotion out of it, or spell out so much to you that the dialog system becomes clumsy.

I do not find the "intent" indications in, say, Deus Ex HR to be more effective than Bioware's icons. There is now a bit of anxiety associated with the exact reply given, but I've never felt that one of my game choices was compromised by a paraphrase. Not to any greater degree than when we had full text for silent characters. I also feel that Bioware intends to create some suspense in their dialog with the paraphrases. I just think that's now part of the game and they don't want you to be certain what is going to happen next. But when they do that -- and they did the same thing with full text dialog in earlier games -- it doesn't matter what dialog choice you make, you're probably going to be a little surprised, because that's what they want.

IMO, you shouldn't criticize the paraphrase system. You should talk to Bioware about their writing generally, because it's not really the paraphrase system that's bothering you. If they wanted, they could clearly write paraphrases that corresponded more certainly to the actual response. But isn't it obvious that they often try to be a little wry in their paraphrase style? Sure. And that's how they roll.

Personally, I'm okay with the idea of playing a character that's more Bioware's character than mine – in principle. And I'm okay with the idea of not knowing exactly what that character is going to say – in principle.

One of my main problems with the paraphrase system in DA2 was the fact that choosing for Hawke to make a certain point sometimes required choosing a particular tone. As others have pointed out, switching from "aggressive" to "witty/sarcastic" or "diplomatic" responses in DA2 often led to a character who felt inconsistent in a way that was jarring. But because each tone tended a bit to the extreme end of its descriptor, consistently choosing a particular tone could lead to a character who felt like a caricature.

I had fun playing Hawke, don't get me wrong – I liked the warm, compassionate, and sometimes sad way that a male Hawke delivered "diplomatic" lines, and the surly, abrasive way that a female Hawke delivered "aggressive" lines. And "sarcastic" Hawke had some truly hilarious dialogue. But at the end of the day, Hawke didn't feel as multi-dimensional to me as many of the companion characters in the game, and I think that's partly because the dialogue system wasn't handled as well as it could have been.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me personally, the idea of paraphrases isn't the problem – it was the way the tones were handled that created problems for me when playing DA2. I think part of the problem is that a person's demeanour is an entirely separate thing from the particular thoughts and opinions that he or she chooses to convey, and by conflating the two, the dialogue system in DA2 ended up feeling disjointed.

That being said, I do think the dialogue wheel system has a lot of potential. Specifically, I think that many of my problems with the dialogue wheel system could be solved if it provided a way for me to choose the point that I want the PC to make, or the information that I want him or her to convey, separately from the character's demeanour.

Having the ability to choose how a character will respond to a situation and what position he or she will take on an issue is very different from having the ability to choose only the character's demeanour. Playing DA2, I felt that I sometimes had the ability to choose how Hawke would respond to a situation, while at other times, I had to pick a tone and guess what opinion Hawke would express when responding to an NPC. And having a certain kind of control in some situations but not others made the game feel disjointed to me.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 août 2012 - 04:35 .

[Olmerto]

Xewaka wrote...
"That instance" is the entire gameplay for me. I choose the Horizon conversation because it is an undeniable example of the core problem inherent to paraphrasing, but at every turn, lacking the knowledge on what the character will say - and will not say - makes the game unplayable for me. What's the point in choosing dialogue when what the character says is, effectively, a random guess?

You're grossly exaggerating with "a random guess".  It's hardly that.  And while I grant that for argument's sake your example is a proper one, were I to actually check it out I might find another case of player misinterpretation.  A lot of "issues" seem to be overstated here.  And even if your example is valid, it certainly doesn't invalidate the paraphrase system; at best it shows an error in execution.  Not an irremedial flaw in the system.

And how do you square the fact that I and others find the game perfectly "playable" and logical, yet you find it "unplayable"?  I have a very, very limited capacity to tolerate poor mechanics in games.  I hardly buy any anymore because so few measure up to my standards.  The dialog in DA2 was a positive aspect for me, once I accepted the ramifications of a voiced protagonist.  The dialog system -- as opposed to the more streamlined combat and gameplay -- was something that continues to appeal to me in Bioware games.

Have you actually seen the Deus Ex dialogue? Look at the screenshot up there. The diamond shows the intent. When an option is highlighted, it reproduces as much dialogue as it can fit in the screen. It is much more informative and helpful in making the choice. Regardless of the inspiration in the writing, Deus Ex is much more succesful at presenting information to the player.

Deus Ex HR doesn't even compare with DA2.  The dialog is simple, and the lines by Jenson are almost uniformly delivered without emotion.  The writing and delivery is much more pedestrian, and the dialog system (with intent indicia) falls flat to me.  In essence, DE:HR dialog is boring and the "intent" given isn't any more helpful than Bioware's icons.  I much prefer the dynamism and power of DA2's dialog, and the way Bioware delievers it.  I would not like to see the DE system in DA.

Mind you, lest you think I'm just a Bioware fanboy, I boycotted DA2 until recently when out of boredom I saw I could buy it for less than $8.  I hated the presentation of the game in the demo, and saw the seeming validity in the negative player reviews.  Upon playing the full game I saw that the same Bioware writing quality and dialog were present and my previous complaints began to fade into the background.  I realized I had judged Bioware prematurely and too harshly.  DA2 is actually a pretty good game.  Not as grand or detailed as DA:O, but good nonetheless.  I'm sorry "Exalted March" was cancelled when, previously, I was happy with any sign the "new direction" had failed.

[Nomen Mendax]

Olmert wrote...

...

I also feel that Bioware intends to create some suspense in their dialog with the paraphrases.  I just think that's now part of the game and they don't want you to be certain what is going to happen next.  But when they do that -- and they did the same thing with full text dialog in earlier games -- it doesn't matter what dialog choice you make, you're probably going to be a little surprised, because that's what they want.

IMO, you shouldn't criticize the paraphrase system.  You should talk to Bioware about their writing generally, because it's not really the paraphrase system that's bothering you.  If they wanted, they could clearly write paraphrases that corresponded more certainly to the actual response.  But isn't it obvious that they often try to be a little wry in their paraphrase style?  Sure.  And that's how they roll.

Actually it is the paraphrase system that bothers me, but I do agree with you that there are other things they are doing that also bother me.  As you suggest they want more ownership of the PC than I am comfortable with.  Obviously I would prefer a system that allows me to feel that I own more of the PC's character while still allowing them to achieve their goals - and that's what I'm suggesting.

I also think you might be right with your contention that Bioware is intending to "create some suspense in their dialog with the paraphrases" and its something that I strongly dislike.  I want to play a game where I get to choose what the PC does, and it isn't really possible to do that unless you know what you are choosing to do.

At this point I'm willing to assume that a compromise is possible with what I want in a game and with what Bioware says they are trying to do.  All they have really said (that I know about) is that they want a more cinematic presentation. 

[Olmerto]

jillabender wrote...

Personally, I'm okay with the idea of playing a character that's more Bioware's character than mine – in principle. And I'm okay with the idea of not knowing exactly what that character is going to say – in principle.

One of my main problems with the paraphrase system in DA2 was the fact that choosing for Hawke to express a certain opinion sometimes required choosing a particular tone. As others have pointed out, switching from "aggressive" to "witty/sarcastic" or "diplomatic" responses in DA2 often led to a character who felt inconsistent in a way that was jarring. But because each tone tended a bit to the extreme end of its descriptor, consistently choosing a particular tone could lead to a character who felt like a caricature.

I had fun playing Hawke, don't get me wrong – I liked the warm, compassionate, and sometimes sad way that a male Hawke delivered "diplomatic" lines, and the surly, abrasive way that a female Hawke delivered "aggressive" lines. And "sarcastic" Hawke had some truly hilarious dialogue. But at the end of the day, Hawke didn't feel as multi-dimensional to me as many of the companion characters in the game, and I think that's partly because the dialogue system wasn't handled as well as it could have been.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for me personally, the idea of paraphrases isn't the problem – it was the way the tones were handled that created problems for me when playing DA2. I think part of the problem is that a person's demeanour is an entirely separate thing from the thoughts and opinions that he or she chooses to convey, and by conflating the two, the dialogue system in DA2 ended up feeling disjointed.

That being said, I do think the dialogue wheel system has a lot of potential. Specifically, I think that many of my problems with the dialogue wheel system could be solved if it provided a way for me to choose the thoughts or opinions that I want the PC to convey separately from the character's demeanour.

I heartily agree that the tone is what is causing issues, not the paraphrasing system.  But unless you have flat delievery (see Deus Ex), varying and conflicting tones are a necessary aspect of a voiced character with multiple mindsets.  In my playthroughs, I did choose some different icons (b/c the paraphrase was more appealing) and occasionally there was an unnatural change of tone.  But I understood why.  The question is, can Bioware do anything about this issue without gutting the dynamism and variety of their dialog choices?

[jillabender]

Olmert wrote…

I heartily agree that the tone is what is causing issues, not the paraphrasing system. But unless you have flat delievery (see Deus Ex), varying and conflicting tones are a necessary aspect of a voiced character with multiple mindsets. In my playthroughs, I did choose some different icons (b/c the paraphrase was more appealing) and occasionally there was an unnatural change of tone. But I understood why. The question is, can Bioware do anything about this issue without gutting the dynamism and variety of their dialog choices?

I think that we'll probably see improvement from Bioware with regard to this issue. I've started playing Mass Effect 1 just recently, and it seems to me so far that it avoids the problem of jarring changes in tone while still offering dynamic and memorable dialogue and voice acting, so I have faith that Bioware can achieve that in the Dragon Age series as well.

One of my frustrations with DA2 was that the story emphasized the significance of Hawke's decision to support either the mages or the templars, but the paraphrase system didn't always allow me the freedom to decide for myself how and why Hawke arrived at that decision.

I would have been fine with that if the authored narrative itself had provided me with more knowledge of the how and why, but for the most part, I found that the writing didn't quite give me enough to go on with regard to Hawke's motivations.

As a result, I felt that I'd been left in a kind of limbo, with an authored narrative that didn't satisfy my curiosity, but that sometimes got in the way when I tried to satisfy that curiosity by imagining Hawke's motivations on my own.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 août 2012 - 04:49 .

[Rurik948]

Strongly oppose to the changes described in the first post as I consider them nothing more than another reduction of dialog system and further alienation of the PC.

Intend and Tone are already perfectly implemented in DA2 icons. And it has nothing to do with the wheel clarity problems, the users have complained of. Pure tone which indicates the direction of auto-dialogs in fact will move a protagonist even further away from a player. At least paraphrasing gives you an idea of what your fellow creation is going to say.  

It seems to me the person who started the thread dislikes paraphrasing only because it breaks cinematic experience. BUT THIS IS A GAME, NOT A MOVIE. It can use some cinematic and quite succesfully , but only when it is not interfere with the player immersion and interactivity. Otherwise the basics of this genre are ruined.

I am sure If Bioware wants to remain a big developer and doesn't want to change an audience with every setting update, it needs to create a system much more flexible than the one described in the first post.

Modifié par Rurik948, 04 août 2012 - 12:59 .

[Xewaka]

Olmert wrote...
You're grossly exaggerating with "a random guess".  It's hardly that.  And while I grant that for argument's sake your example is a proper one, were I to actually check it out I might find another case of player misinterpretation.  A lot of "issues" seem to be overstated here. And even if your example is valid, it certainly doesn't invalidate the paraphrase system; at best it shows an error in execution.  Not an irremedial flaw in the system.

And this is where you're wrong. It is, in fact, an inherent flaw of the system. The paraphrases, by design, lack the space to reproduce anything but the most basic overall direction of the dialogue. By design, they lack the space to present nuance. By design, they lack the space to give specific content information. By design, the paraphrases hide the line that will come. By design, paraphrases deny the player the capability to know what exactly will his/her character say before it says it.

Olmert wrote...
And how do you square the fact that I and others find the game perfectly "playable" and logical, yet you find it "unplayable"?  I have a very, very limited capacity to tolerate poor mechanics in games.  I hardly buy any anymore because so few measure up to my standards.  The dialog in DA2 was a positive aspect for me, once I accepted the ramifications of a voiced protagonist.  The dialog system -- as opposed to the more streamlined combat and gameplay -- was something that continues to appeal to me in Bioware games.

I square it with the fact that some people, for whatever reason, don't care about what their character will say, only that it goes in a general direction -- even if the paraphrase and the actual dialogue are directly at odds, which happens too often.

Olmert wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Have you actually seen the Deus Ex dialogue? Look at the screenshot up there. The diamond shows the intent. When an option is highlighted, it reproduces as much dialogue as it can fit in the screen. It is much more informative and helpful in making the choice. Regardless of the inspiration in the writing, Deus Ex is much more succesful at presenting information to the player.

Deus Ex HR doesn't even compare with DA2.  The dialog is simple, and the lines by Jenson are almost uniformly delivered without emotion.  The writing and delivery is much more pedestrian, and the dialog system (with intent indicia) falls flat to me.  In essence, DE:HR dialog is boring and the "intent" given isn't any more helpful than Bioware's icons.  I much prefer the dynamism and power of DA2's dialog, and the way Bioware delievers it.

Why are you critizicing the writing, when I am referring to the dialogue choice UI? I will concede that you're entitled to believe that DX:HR writing and voice acting is worse than DA2. But, again, please pay attention to the point I'm making:
Deus Ex Human Revolution shows the full line that will be spoken, while Dragon Age 2 does not; therefore, Deus Ex Human Revolution gives more information to the player than Dragon Age 2.
Do you disagree with the former, bolded statement? If so, can you explain why? Because I'm having a hard time figuring out how "Full line" is less information than "four random words that sorta mighta kinda could relate to the line that will be spoken, if you're lucky and are in the same mindset as the writer when s/he wrote the paraphrasing".

Modifié par Xewaka, 04 août 2012 - 08:26 .

[Olmerto]

Xewaka wrote...

Why are you critizicing the writing, when I am referring to the dialogue choice UI? I will concede that you're entitled to believe that DX:HR writing and voice acting is worse than DA2. But, again, please pay attention to the point I'm making:
Deus Ex Human Revolution shows the full line that will be spoken, while Dragon Age 2 does not; therefore, Deus Ex Human Revolution gives more information to the player than Dragon Age 2.
Do you disagree with the former, bolded statement? If so, can you explain why? Because I'm having a hard time figuring out how "Full line" is less information than "four random words that sorta mighta kinda could relate to the line that will be spoken, if you're lucky and are in the same mindset as the writer when s/he wrote the paraphrasing".

I believe you are entitled to prefer the dialog system that best appeals to you.  As am I.  However, just stating that Deus Ex gives you more information about the upcoming line does not make it objectively better.  I believe that the paraphrase system of Bioware provides more "pop" and heightens interest in their dialog with a voiced protagonist.  It's more cinematic, and that apparently is the effect Bioware is shooting for.  We can argue till the cows come home about the effectiveness of the dialog presentation, but it's always going to be highly subjective.

I like what Bioware has done.  I like the "dialog game" Bioware has devised. I understand the arguments you and others make for more comprehensive knowledge of the precise dialog -- it's a control thing -- but that direction appears weaker in cinematic voiced dialog to me, and that apparently is Bioware's conclusion as well.  As already discussed, in DA2 I always felt the paraphrases allowed me to make reasonably informed choices in conversations while maintaining the impact of hearing the actual voiced lines, and I never once felt compelled to reload the game and replay a conversation due to a misleading paraphrase.*  And yet I recall having to do this in previous Bioware games despite being given the full text.  I believe it's in the writing, not the dialog system.

* I will concede that it's possible that not reloading conversations might be a function of lessened control over my character; I expect less precision so I accept the unforeseen consequences more readily.  It's an interesting personal inquiry.

[Nomen Mendax]

Rurik948 wrote...

Strongly oppose to the changes described in the first post as I consider them nothing more than another reduction of dialog system and further alienation of the PC.

Intend and Tone are already perfectly implemented in DA2 icons. And it has nothing to do with the wheel clarity problems, the users have complained of. Pure tone which indicates the direction of auto-dialogs in fact will move a protagonist even further away from a player. At least paraphrasing gives you an idea of what your fellow creation is going to say.  

It seems to me the person who started the thread dislikes paraphrasing only because it breaks cinematic experience. BUT THIS IS A GAME, NOT A MOVIE. It can use some cinematic and quite succesfully , but only when it is not interfere with the player immersion and interactivity. Otherwise the basics of this genre are ruined.

I am sure If Bioware wants to remain a big developer and doesn't want to change an audience with every setting update, it needs to create a system much more flexible than the one described in the first post.

The way Bioware does paraphrasing doesn't give as much of an idea of what the PC is going to say because they intentionally don't include the phrasing of the line in the paraphrase (i.e. the paraphrase uses different words from the spoken line).  Often this isn't a problem but it certainly is enough of the time to bother me.

I found the second line I put in bold amusingly ironic.  I strongly dislike Bioware's obsession with making CRPGs into "cinematic experiences" and would much rather they focused their efforts on making them as much like PnP RPGs as possible.  I think there are a lot of things they could to to give more choice to the player, make gameplay more interesting, and make the NPCs more real but these all get a lot harder to do when you are focusing on cinematic presentation.  I'd be a lot happier with seeing the full text of my replies, getting rid of the dialogue wheel and going back to a non-voiced PC, but none of these things are going to happen.

David Gaider has been pretty clear that Bioware is interested in the cinematic side of the game, and making conversations more cinematic and flowing.  As I said in my OP I don't think their current paraphrasing system works well for that and I also prefer intent and tone to paraphrases for the other reasons I originally stated.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 04 août 2012 - 03:49 .

[jillabender]

Olmert wrote…

I like what Bioware has done. I like the "dialog game" Bioware has devised. I understand the arguments you and others make for more comprehensive knowledge of the precise dialog -- it's a control thing -- but that direction appears weaker in cinematic voiced dialog to me, and that apparently is Bioware's conclusion as well.

Well, for me it is a control thing, but not quite in the way that it seems to be for some people. I'm okay with having less control in the sense of the PC being more Bioware's character than mine.

My problem with the DA2 dialogue system wasn't so much that I had to guess which dialogue options would contradict my conception of my character – as you've said, having less freedom to define the character for yourself is probably inevitable to some degree with a voiced PC.

My problem with the DA2 dialogue system was that I had to guess without much help which dialogue options would contradict Bioware's conception of whichever version of Hawke I was playing. The tone and paraphrase system didn't always make it clear, for example, which dialogue options would contradict the idea of an "angry, aggressive, pro-mage Hawke," or the idea of a "diplomatic, pro-templar Hawke."

I'm fine with playing a character whose demeanour changes depending on the situation – when it's appropriate. In fact, I'm all for that, since it makes a character feel more multi-dimensional. And there were times when changes in Hawke's demeanour worked well.

But when I can choose a dialogue option that, based on the paraphrase, seems consistent with the way Hawke has acted previously, and suddenly it feels as though a completely different person is speaking, it creates a problem for me.

If the character is intended to be more Bioware's character than mine, that's fine, but in that case, I want to be able to play a consistent and believable version of Bioware's character. And I want to be able to understand the character on a deeper level than what I found to be possible with Hawke.

Modifié par jillabender, 04 août 2012 - 04:49 .