392 réponses à ce sujet

[iSousek]

Pypek_360 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


They don't like to be called soldiers because they aren't. A soldier is a member of an army whereas Marines are naval infantry and support. Marines aren't soldiers in the same way that sailors aren't soldiers.

Well, I get it all now, had to look 'Soldier' up on wikipedia . Apparently I didn't get it because it's a language thing.
In Poland, everybody that serves in the Army is called a soldier, doesn't matter wheter he's a pilot, seaman, paratrooper or whatever. Well.. you always learn something new .

So is it everywhere in the world. Soldier can be a person that serves in the armed forces. It is, and always was back to middle ages when the word originated. In this terminology marine is a type soldier

Or, in more narrow sense, soldier is a member of land forces. In this term, a Marine is not a soldier.

Also the whole 'you cant call a marine a soldier' is more of an US cultural product. It is very common in other countries to adress all members of armed forces (no matter the departement) as soldiers.

[Zso_Zso]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We have a winner !

MutoidMan wrote...

What appears to be the meta main topic of this thread - whether historic Western military traditions can be expected to be honored by a fictional future almagam of some of Earth's most powerful militaries exactly as they are by today's actual militaries - is an interesting one.

I found the following article which I think allows for the possibility of a non-insulting left-handed salute coming about (and back) in the future:www.qmmuseum.lee.army.mil/history/vignettes/respect1.html

All those trumpeting "traditions can never change", please read the above link for the history of salutation including left handed ones!

Modifié par Zso_Zso, 03 août 2012 - 01:23 .

[JaegerBane]

NKKKK wrote...
I don't care if he's a cerberus operative or not, IN ANY ARMED FORCES IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, YOU SALUTE WITH THE RIGHT HAND. To do otherwise is disrecptuful. So this Cerberus marine was disrepctifing Shepard, maybe that's why he's gone afterwards. Who knows.

The modern military right-handed salute has its roots in the medieval belief that being left-handed was a sign that you were either descended from or influenced by Satan (I kid you not). The salute itself stems from the situation that high-ranking soldiers would be wearing hinged faceplates or otherwise some kind of face protection which obscured their features. When addressing their King, it was forbidden in most of the nations of medieval Europe to do it while your face was obscured, either facing another direction or wearing a mask etc.

Hence, since a given soldier would need to make sure his faceplate or helmet stayed clear of his face, when addressing his liege, he'd hold it up with his hand, and since virtually all soldiers were either right-handed or disguised the fact they were left handed due to the superstitions at the time, they used the right hand to do it. This ritual gesture of respect to their authority evolved into the current salute we see today.

The point is that the right-handed thing is purely based on superstition. It's quite conceivable that, in the world of ME, where there's been a wholesale move to a more diversity-orientated attitude, it would have been modified to take into account.

Third, MARINES DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES SOLDIERS, this has happened in all three games at one point or another.

They don't call themselves soldiers in the *US MARINES* because they aren't in the army (this is true of HM Royal Marines too, but they can still be called soldiers). In Mass Effect the vast majority of troops in the human armed forces are technically Navy - the actual concept of an 'army' in literal terms is bordering on obsolete, and its made pretty clear that the Alliances troops were initially drawn from the worlds armed forces.

The point is that you had troops from all over the world who were effectively transferred into a brand new supra-national military branch that is only partially related to anything we have today (I mean, technically, I would imagine something like the Alliance would be branded as Air Force more than anything else), with a massive amount of reorganisation going on to ready military forces to fight and operate over a medium that has never been fought across before in human history. Hence, assuming that *everything* would operate precisely as it would today in a completely different military branch with a completely different background is downright silly.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 03 août 2012 - 02:08 .

[Han Shot First]

iSousek wrote...

Also the whole 'you cant call a marine a soldier' is more of an US cultural product. It is very common in other countries to adress all members of armed forces (no matter the departement) as soldiers.

It also common to call any type of firearm a 'gun' even though guns technically aren't pistols or rifles. Guns are actually a type of artillery weapon or a crew served machine gun.

Just because soldier is in common usage for all military personnel in a ground combat role, doesn't mean the word is technically correct. Marines aren't actually soldiers.

That being said, it is a bit nitpicky.

[majormajormmajor]

so full of edgy teenagers this fooking thread

[lillitheris]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Rubios wrote...

You know the military facts of a fictional army created in 2149?

Please tell us more about those facts.

NKKKK wrote...
cause to me, the immersion breaks. 

So you serve in the Systems Alliance? Cool story bro.

There seems to be a certain…rigidity of thinking…that prevents these contemporary military types (or former, or wannabe) from understanding that *gasp* the SA isn’t exactly like [whatever military they happen to serve in].

[lillitheris]

Han Shot First wrote...

Just because soldier is in common usage for all military personnel in a ground combat role, doesn't mean the word is technically correct. Marines aren't actually soldiers.

Yes, they are.

Dictionary
1 a : one engaged in military service and especially in the army b : an enlisted man or woman c : a skilled warrior

(Emphasis added. Especially, but not only.)

Whether the contemporary American marines prefer to be known as the subtype of soldier called ‘marine’ is a different matter. They’re still soldiers.

I’m curious whether these same people complain about Total War: Rome (or whatever) not using modern military nomenclature… Now, this bit is important: if you want to respond to that by saying “but it’s historically accurate!”—good for you. Now just imagine that ME is also ‘historically accurate’ for 2184.

Modifié par lillitheris, 03 août 2012 - 07:41 .

[Jorina Leto]

NKKKK wrote...


http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

I don't care if he's a cerberus operative or not, IN ANY ARMED FORCES IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, YOU SALUTE WITH THE RIGHT HAND. To do otherwise is disrecptuful. So this Cerberus marine was disrepctifing Shepard, maybe that's why he's gone afterwards. Who knows.

It's the future. Such things may change.

NKKKK wrote...
Third, MARINES DO NOT CALL THEMSELVES SOLDIERS, this has happened in all three games at one point or another. Even L.A. Noire, a great game whose developes did their research, made that mistake in an otherwise flawless game.

Now I'm not a marine, I'm an Airman, but even I know these damn rules and terms, and the first two examples aren't jarhead exclusive. They fit in the whole armed services.

The Alliance ground forces are not the United States Marine Corps. Your argument is invalid.

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 03 août 2012 - 07:47 .

[NKKKK]

It's the future. Such things may change.

(Salute)

Read the thread

Yes, they are.

No they're not

Modifié par NKKKK, 03 août 2012 - 10:29 .

[Zkyire]

NKKKK wrote...

It's the future. Such things may change.

(Salute)

Read the thread

Yes, they are.

No they're not

Why should he even read through 10 pages of this?

It is just people telling you that you cannot predict the future and you replying with "Nah I can lol".

It's not even a discussion.

[Krakefer.ch]

Shepard's not in USMC so "soldier"'s just fine.

About the salute. Seriously ??? You're a master troll.

[ParaNeuman]

Chris Priestly wrote...

You know this is a video game and not, you know, real life, right?

Blasphemy! Mass effect IS real life  I will not hear of this madness any longer.

[eternalnightmare13]

Chris Priestly wrote...

You know this is a video game and not, you know, real life, right?

You're not even trying any more, Chris, are you?

[Peregrin25]

Don't forget, you only salute when you are wearing a cover, without you stand at attention and give the proper greeting of the day weather it be morning noon or night!.

I have served with different militaries from around the world. British, Korean, Australian, Greek, French, Canadian, German, Egyptian, Jordanian and Iraqi militaries.

Although the salutes are a little different they are all done with the right hand and almost never done when not wearing a cover.

Heather Cline wrote...

I hate to tell you this but those people who are left handed salute with their left hand. Though left handed people are a minority in the world, they do exist. It isn't an insult to salute with your left hand if you are left handed. Seriously that's just messed up saying that the guy saluting with his left hand is insulting someone without knowing if the person is left handed or not.

As for this comment. All military personnel that I have been around. Me being a U.S. Marine, all of us are trained in Boot Camp to salute with the right hand and right hand only. Army is that way, Navy and Air Force are that way. British Royal Marines and Royal Army are that way, As is most of the other militaries from around the world.

Just because one is left handed, they still have to salute with the right hand, regardless of their dominant side. There is no acception to this. It just is.

Even though this story is all science fiction. The rules still apply. Propper code of conduct and military type way of life should be handled propperly regardless of it not being real and only a fictional story.

As for alot of comments stating against this, it should still matter.

Most well writen stories fact and fiction when military is involved, they go above and beyond to make it as realistic as possible as far as code of conduct and how a military should opperate. That right there shows initiative to make it right and accurate. On that note, BioWare failed when it came to that. But oh well. Nothing we can do about that now.

Modifié par Peregrin25, 04 août 2012 - 02:50 .

[Peregrin25]

lillitheris wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Just because soldier is in common usage for all military personnel in a ground combat role, doesn't mean the word is technically correct. Marines aren't actually soldiers.

Yes, they are.

No, they most certainly are not!

Marine as Marines. Soldier is Army.

This is deffinately not part of the topic of this post, but I am a United States Marine and anyone else that is would side with me.

Marines are Marines nothing more, nothing less.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

I have been lurking in this thread for some time and I am amused at the reasoning of why a left handed salute would (or should be) acceptable. Why would any or all militaries change such a mundane tradition? You also have to take into account the fact that saluting with which-ever hand you choose would just look sloppy in military processions and other ceremonies that involve saluting. I would think that there are other more pressing controversial military traditions that the militaries of the World should try to overturn (i.e. the Role of women in combat)

[Han Shot First]

lillitheris wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Just because soldier is in common usage for all military personnel in a ground combat role, doesn't mean the word is technically correct. Marines aren't actually soldiers.

Yes, they are.

Dictionary
1 a : one engaged in military service and especially in the army b : an enlisted man or woman c : a skilled warrior

(Emphasis added. Especially, but not only.)

Whether the contemporary American marines prefer to be known as the subtype of soldier called ‘marine’ is a different matter. They’re still soldiers.

I’m curious whether these same people complain about Total War: Rome (or whatever) not using modern military nomenclature… Now, this bit is important: if you want to respond to that by saying “but it’s historically accurate!”—good for you. Now just imagine that ME is also ‘historically accurate’ for 2184.

Marines are no more soldiers than knives are forks.

Dictionaries aren't concerned with whether or not words are correct technical nomenclature. They're concerned with how words are used in every day language.

If you look up 'gun' in the dictionary you'll be told that it means 'a firearm.' While that is true for every day usage, it is also technically incorrect. A pistol is not actually a gun.

Likewise Marines aren't soldiers.

That being said, the whole Marine/soldier thing is incredibly nitpicky. It also isn't really an issue in the game as soldier is in common usage to refer to all military personnel employed in a ground combat role, and many countries do call their Marines soldiers.

The US Marines even went through periods where they did exactly that. Old recruiting posters for example often have 'Soldiers of the Sea' emblazoned on it.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 août 2012 - 05:44 .

[Peregrin25]

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...
 I would think that there are other more pressing controversial military traditions that the militaries of the World should try to overturn (i.e. the Role of women in combat)

To answer that question. I don't know what reasons the U.S. Army has for that, but as for the Marine Corps.

One of the reason we do not allow female combatants is the male mental cpacity. Meaning a man seeing a woman go down as a casualty flips on a specific natural human responce that would impede that persons ability to focus on the obective at hand.

There are specifics to that as to what captured women may endure seeing as being a front line soldier or marine you are more likely to become a casualty or possibly a p.o.w.

I am not saying women are not capable of being front line worthy but there are things to take into consideration that could possibly impede mission success.

I honestly can't say what I would do or how I would react to watching a female getting blown up compared to one of my friends I watched get blown up. He being a man, I do think it would have affected me moreso had it been a woman. On top of it, I am also a trained combat aidsmen and I don;t know how I would feel ripping off her clothes to patch up her wounds while waiting for a CAS EVAC.

It however would be necessary, I just think it would become an unecessary distraction regardless of any FUBAR situation.

Men have a tendancy to get over protective, and that could cause trouble when he should be focusing on the more serious issues.

There are plenty of women that are put in harms way regardless of wheather or not they are front line soldiers or marines and still have combat experience. In all honesty. I believe it should stay that way. I have mad respect for females in the military but there are just some things I think they should stay clear of regardless of if they are capable. Not to mention, it is hard to say how well a woman would handle herself in the situations I found myself in when I was in Iraq back in 2005. There are probably other reasons, but that is the only common sence reason I can come up with.

Modifié par Peregrin25, 04 août 2012 - 05:37 .

[Joryn01]

As a former Airman, I did not even notice that there was someone saluting with their left hand, probably because in the end I didn't care. I just liked the story and nothing silly like that broke my immersion. Now yes, left handed salute is wrong but really, who cares. It's just a video game. I have never seen someone salute with their left hand, even if they are injured, they just make sure they render a respectful greeting. But that is real life. If you really have that much of a problem with it then don't play.

[Han Shot First]

Joryn01 wrote...

As a former Airman, I did not even notice that there was someone saluting with their left hand, probably because in the end I didn't care. I just liked the story and nothing silly like that broke my immersion. Now yes, left handed salute is wrong but really, who cares. It's just a video game. I have never seen someone salute with their left hand, even if they are injured, they just make sure they render a respectful greeting. But that is real life. If you really have that much of a problem with it then don't play.

It is a fairly embarrasing mistake, but I also don't see this as a game breaking issue.

It is like noticing a car in the background while watching Lord of the Rings, or noticing that an extra in Spartacus is wearing a wrist watch. It is something to laugh at and at worse briefly breaks immersion, but it is nothing more than a minor blooper that doesn't spoil the whole experience.

[Grimez7]

smh. its a video game based on a collaboration of all of the militaries in the world 200 years in the future. i don't even see how that is comparable

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Peregrin25 wrote...

TheShogunOfHarlem wrote...
 I would think that there are other more pressing controversial military traditions that the militaries of the World should try to overturn (i.e. the Role of women in combat)

To answer that question. I don't know what reasons the U.S. Army has for that, but as for the Marine Corps.

One of the reason we do not allow female combatants is the male mental cpacity. Meaning a man seeing a woman go down as a casualty flips on a specific natural human responce that would impede that persons ability to focus on the obective at hand.

There are specifics to that as to what captured women may endure seeing as being a front line soldier or marine you are more likely to become a casualty or possibly a p.o.w.

I am not saying women are not capable of being front line worthy but there are things to take into consideration that could possibly impede mission success.

I honestly can't say what I would do or how I would react to watching a female getting blown up compared to one of my friends I watched get blown up. He being a man, I do think it would have affected me moreso had it been a woman. On top of it, I am also a trained combat aidsmen and I don;t know how I would feel ripping off her clothes to patch up her wounds while waiting for a CAS EVAC.

It however would be necessary, I just think it would become an unecessary distraction regardless of any FUBAR situation.

Men have a tendancy to get over protective, and that could cause trouble when he should be focusing on the more serious issues.

There are plenty of women that are put in harms way regardless of wheather or not they are front line soldiers or marines and still have combat experience. In all honesty. I believe it should stay that way. I have mad respect for females in the military but there are just some things I think they should stay clear of regardless of if they are capable. Not to mention, it is hard to say how well a woman would handle herself in the situations I found myself in when I was in Iraq back in 2005. There are probably other reasons, but that is the only common sence reason I can come up with.

While I don't disagree with you on the fact that there are men that would have an issue with women being in situations where they risk being captued, maimed, etc. but hasn't that been an issue in the current wars? Granted not in great numbers mind you, but it has happened nonetheless since the asymetric warfare tactics the enemy has been using blur the notion of having a frontline. There have been female POWs at least going back to the original Gulf War and there have been a number of casualities from enemy fire and IEDs. It may not be in comparable numbers but it has happened and it is a reality that I think that should addressed in a reasonable way.

Pulling them away from an undefined frontline isn't really addressing the issue so much as it ignoring openly debating and discussing the issue in a meaningful way. I myself am on the fence with the issue however I think there need to be a meaningful discussion on the matter since there will always be a War to fight and with an all volunteer Military numbers is alway gonna be important.