392 réponses à ce sujet

[Mimitochan]

For what it's worth, i haven't been reading all those pages, but i understand OP.
I mean ME could totally have had a military consultant, why not?
I'm not saying some absurdities here are breaking the experience, just that the more if feels real, or the more we know it is close to real, the more enjoyable and valuable to me.

Plus i totally understand military people getting annoyed by some details.
I mean Hollywood and fiction have been so much exploiting the glamourous side of military and war, they are very much entitled to speak their mind, i would even say, a lot more than other people.

Also, i think it's great to have high expectations for a video game.
I think it's great to have high expectations for anything, really.

And yes, i think realism is valuable.

Modifié par Mimitochan, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:52 .

[Tup3x]

There are plenty of things that are off in ME when it comes to military stuff. I don't let it bother me much but oh boy if I would have saluted with the left hand...

[Mimitochan]

Tup3xi wrote...

There are plenty of things that are off in ME when it comes to military stuff. I don't let it bother me much but oh boy if I would have saluted with the left hand...

Maybe the scene was originally designed with the right hand salute but horizontally flipped at the last minute for some reason?

[ZombieGambit]

I think I replied to this thread a month ago, but I'm going to respond again anyway.

Things that bother me:
1. No real distinction between the Alliance Navy and the Alliance Marines.

Obviously regular Marines aren't trained to fly the ships and sailors, I guess you'd called them, aren't trained for ground combat, so why are there not two branches or even clear distinctions in ranks?

2. Kaidan and Ashley rise through the ranks much too quickly.

There's no way a Staff Lieutenant would be made a Staff Commander in 2 years and a Major after one more. That's 3 ranks in 3 years and he outranked Shepard, a Lieutenant Commander, back in ME2, that makes no sense at all. Ashley's rise is even more improbable, she went from non-commissioned officer in ME2, Operations Chief, to Lieutenant Commander an actual officer rank, a jump of 4 ranks in 1 year.

3. Occasional saluting mistakes.

Sometimes characters use their left hands, which is against the rules in all militaries apart from extreme circumstances like having an injured or otherwise disabled right hand/arm. There's also the deal with people of a higher or equal ranks saluting Shepard, particularly the Virmire Survivors.

4. There being almost no enlisted personnel at all mentioned in any of the 3 games. Off the top of my head I can think of Privates Westmoreland and Campbell, Ensign Copeland, and Specialist Traynor on the Normandy in ME3. Everyone else is an officer.

Joker is a Flight Lieutenant, Vega is a Lieutenant (I don't know specifically which rank), Cortez is a Lieutenant, Adams is a Lieutenant, Dr. Chakwas is a Major, Kaidan is a Major, and Ashley is a Lieutenant Commander. There seems to be a ridiculous amount of officers in the Alliance.

5. The Alliance using supposedly sub-par small arms to outfit their troops.

In every cutscene and instance that there are Alliance Marines using small arms they always carry the M-8 Avenger or the M-3 Predator. The Avenger is a cheap knock-off of the Lancer, what was originally the Alliance's standard issue rifle, and the Predator's description says it's not used by militaries.

There are plenty of other weapons that have descriptions saying they're used by the Alliance, but they never ever show up in the hands of anyone except Shepard and his Squadmates. The Valkyrie, Saber, Falcon, Eagle, Crusader, Valiant, Black Widow, Hurricane, Locust, and Phalanx are all Alliance weapons, why didn't BioWare give them to the Alliance. I actually recall a cutscene with a Cerberus Trooper carrying the Locust and a couple salarians carrying the Falcon. The Phalanx is also carried by all Cerberus Combat Engineers, but not a single Alliance Marine is ever seen carrying anything except the Avenger or the Predator...

EDIT: I'm going to add a couple more points.

6. Why does C-Sec wear Alliance uniforms?

I can understand that they could get the uniforms from the same supplier, it happens nowadays too, but the lack of insignia on either uniforms is just obnoxious. You can't tell them apart. Shepard, everyone on the Normandy, and Bailey wear the same exact uniform for no reason. The all blue version that C-Sec wears exists, why didn't BioWare make Bailey wear that one, instead they gave him the blue camo one that Alliance personnel wears.

7. No insignias or proper rank pins on any uniform.

Only Liara gets the Alliance insignia on one of their alternate outfits (from the Collector's Edition), and Liara's not even in the Alliance. Shepard doesn't even get it on his Dress Blues. The Spectre Insignia doesn't appear on anyone's armor except Kaidan's brown Marine armor.

Shepard's rank doesn't appear properly, as far as I know, since Kaidan also has two bars on his collar when wearing his default blue armor. So many details just overlooked. These things are important to people who understand how they work. A little effort is all we ask. How much work could it have been to add a tiny logo here and there?

Modifié par ZombieGambit, 18 septembre 2012 - 07:04 .

[Mimitochan]

@ZombieGambit > thanks for the highlight, really interesting!

[Grizzly46]

[quote]ZombieGambit wrote...
1. No real distinction between the Alliance Navy and the Alliance Marines.

Obviously regular Marines aren't trained to fly the ships and sailors, I guess you'd called them, aren't trained for ground combat, so why are there not two branches or even clear distinctions in ranks?
[/quote]

I agree. It seems to me the entire Alliance organization is one big branch with navy and ground forces mashed together, and no army branch. There's no sense in it - if ME had been a game about civilians, then I could have let it slide, but Shepard is a military officer on a military vessel in a bloody WAR!

I have said this earlier: not looking up this kind of thing is just lazy. Next stop will probably be cube-shaped planets...

[quote]
2. Kaidan and Ashley rise through the ranks much too quickly.

There's no way a Staff Lieutenant would be made a Staff Commander in 2 years and a Major after one more. That's 3 ranks in 3 years and he outranked Shepard, a Lieutenant Commander, back in ME2, that makes no sense at all. Ashley's rise is even more improbable, she went from non-commissioned officer in ME2, Operations Chief, to Lieutenant Commander an actual officer rank, a jump of 4 ranks in 1 year.
[/quote]

Considering the mess the entire structure is in, I'm not really surprised. And while at it: Shepard has saved the galaxy twice and humanity once, and he both start and end the games with the rank of Commander... isn't he brown-nosing enough or what?

[quote]
3. Occasional saluting mistakes.

Sometimes characters use their left hands, which is against the rules in all militaries apart from extreme circumstances like having an injured or otherwise disabled right hand/arm. There's also the deal with people of a higher or equal ranks saluting Shepard, particularly the Virmire Survivors.
[/quote]

Yeah, this is quite jarring, and I don't understand it - they apparently have animation files for both; why not just use the right-handed salute consistently?

[quote]
4. There being almost no enlisted personnel at all mentioned in any of the 3 games. Off the top of my head I can think of Privates Westmoreland and Campbell, Ensign Copeland, and Specialist Traynor on the Normandy in ME3. Everyone else is an officer.

Joker is a Flight Lieutenant, Vega is a Lieutenant (I don't know specifically which rank), Cortez is a Lieutenant, Adams is a Lieutenant, Dr. Chakwas is a Major, Kaidan is a Major, and Ashley is a Lieutenant Commander. There seems to be a ridiculous amount of officers in the Alliance.
[/quote]

Well, if they have borrowed the ranks from the air forces, then it would make a little more sense, since all flyers are indeed officers as far as I know - likewise, some specialists are also given a certain rank too, even if they aren't officers as such.

But this is the Alliance navy...

[quote]
5. The Alliance using supposedly sub-par small arms to outfit their troops.

In every cutscene and instance that there are Alliance Marines using small arms they always carry the M-8 Avenger or the M-3 Predator. The Avenger is a cheap knock-off of the Lancer, what was originally the Alliance's standard issue rifle, and the Predator's description says it's not used by militaries.

There are plenty of other weapons that have descriptions saying they're used by the Alliance, but they never ever show up in the hands of anyone except Shepard and his Squadmates. The Valkyrie, Saber, Falcon, Eagle, Crusader, Valiant, Black Widow, Hurricane, Locust, and Phalanx are all Alliance weapons, why didn't BioWare give them to the Alliance. I actually recall a cutscene with a Cerberus Trooper carrying the Locust and a couple salarians carrying the Falcon. The Phalanx is also carried by all Cerberus Combat Engineers, but not a single Alliance Marine is ever seen carrying anything except the Avenger or the Predator...[/quote]
[/quote]

Lazy programming again. This is the same phenomenon that makes my Shepard pull out an M3 all the time in cutscenes when he NEVER uses it in gameplay.

[inb4lock]

Having read most of the comments on the thread, I think what most people are annoyed about is two things.

1. Consistency: If you establish some thing, at least be consistent about it.
If you (as an example) state that the System Alliance is a single unified military. Don’t mix the ranks. If you make codex explaining lore and technology, stick to them. If you don’t, then don’t make them at all. Don’t tell me in a codex that the sun turned blue and then show it as Barbie pink.

2. Respect: If you are going to use elements from something, take the 30 seconds it takes to verify your facts, or hire someone who knows something about it to help you get them right. When you have a fanbase like the one Bioware has got, you have to respect those who loves the game to get simple things right. I know it’s a game, but to a lot of the fans it is more than that, it is a world where they have spent countless hours. I’m not saying that they should copy the way things are done in Canada, the US or North Korea. But universal things should be correct.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Amen OP. I fully agree with you. Technically I've never been in the military (I'm in "reserve" ).
Every single error like this in games, movies makes me like wtf it's not right. However then I think yeah, it was cheaper to make a mistake so the company earns more cash. I'm not hating but it's a common mistake for 95% of companies.

[LandoCalrisian]

I guess if ME3 was realeased 5 years ago the OP would have been complaining that it's unrealistic for there to be gays in the fictional future's outer-space magical military.

By the way OP, regarding the left-handed salute, I'm actually a member of the United Nations Space Marine Army Relief Taskforce (U.N.S.M.A.R.T). We're just getting started, but someday we might become the Earth Systems Alliance, unless Obama lets Iran blow up the whole world with nuclear weapons before that happens. We all salute with our left hands because top-secret studies show that left handed people are smarter and more stylish, and the United Nations Space Marines only accept the smartest and most stylish (hence all female soldiers wear high heels)! So, that's probably why the outer space biotic superheroes and aliens of the distant future all salute with their left hands in this documentary known as "The Mass Effect Trilogy".

[Bierwichtel]

LandoCalrisian wrote...

I guess if ME3 was realeased 5 years ago the OP would have been complaining that it's unrealistic for there to be gays in the fictional future's outer-space magical military.

By the way OP, regarding the left-handed salute, I'm actually a member of the United Nations Space Marine Army Relief Taskforce (U.N.S.M.A.R.T). We're just getting started, but someday we might become the Earth Systems Alliance, unless Obama lets Iran blow up the whole world with nuclear weapons before that happens. We all salute with our left hands because top-secret studies show that left handed people are smarter and more stylish, and the United Nations Space Marines only accept the smartest and most stylish (hence all female soldiers wear high heels)! So, that's probably why the outer space biotic superheroes and aliens of the distant future all salute with their left hands in this documentary known as "The Mass Effect Trilogy".

there's one in every thread...

mantra: ignore the troll, ignore the troll... no...

listen buddy, some people posting here actually have served, some of us have been in wars, we are allowed to be p*ssed off about stuff like this...
------------

the same way you would have the right to complain about someone describing an orc wrong, or someone using 6 sided die to roll an attack...

you do sound like an rpger is all...

btw... I really enjoy Spoony's Counter Monkey stories even though I really don't understand the fascination with rpg... table top that is...

Modifié par Bierwichtel, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Bierwichtel]

not that strategy play is not like table top in some fashion, it just has a sadly darker purpose...

[Tsuker]

honestly all the semantic inaccuracies like saluting and ranks, don't bother me that much. mostly because it is a cultural thing related more to the specific nations' habits (like you said in the US the marines don't refer to them as soldiers, and in other countries it is not like that.)

the things that did bother me were more logical combat stuff, specifically 2 things:
-in some cut scenes people would shoot from the hip rather then the shoulder, wich any one that ever used an assault rifle will know makes aiming for over 10 meters virtually impossible.
-the active lights on the weapons and armor, this is the "biggest" military flaw if you ask me, any one that was in any army knows that active lights and anything that reflects light(like the hand watch) has to be covered for obvious reasons.

i know these things are results of the "rule of cool", but they are militarily wrong. also i still love mass effect since these are really small things in the overall game and, it is a game after all, flaws will always exist.

[DreGregoire]

I don't think it's unreasonable to point out things that we consider flaws in a product we purchased. Those who just want us to put up and shut up are going to be disappointed because it isn't in human nature to do so. The BSN is a clear indicator of that. If I, and others, didn't care about the product and/or the producer of future products then we wouldn't bother pointing out the things that we believe could use some improvement. However, I do care about Bioware products because I am a huge fan of theirs and fully intend on buying their products in the future. And I can assure any and all that the next time I see a left handed salute in a Mass Effect playthrough I am likely to mention it again, because it speaks to me on a level that can not be silenced. This does not mean that if there was a valid, Mass Effect Universe, reason for saluting left handed that I wouldn't accept it and move on, but to date I have not heard anything other than, "We tried to catch it all but missed some." I do think in some instances it may have been a technical issue, which if it were it would be good to know.

[Untonic]

Bierwichtel wrote...

Untonic wrote...

If you want to get critical about this game, you might just want to blow it up.

It's Sci Fi, you're not going to get much realism... looking for it here is a near-endless journey. Plus this is like 180 years in the future, perhaps some huge war used the Right-handed salute as a symbol like how the peace-sign of the Swastika was destroyed by the N A Z I s.

Perhaps a new military code? Maybe Marines don't do much, and they are just considered soldiers? I've never bee nin the military but I don't see the problem if they are called soliders, after all Earth is United, it isn't U.S.A. Space-Mode Activated.

And besides, if everything was so realistic, it would be pointless to play the game when it would be like real-life so you get up and do exactly how it is ingame if it was real. Games are to escape, notice how there isn't anyone fat and that everyone has the same outfit...

Just my opinion on the situation

you are of course right on the point of escapism.

it's just a point of personal pride for a soldier (for any vocation, may it be chef, medical personnel, IT people, etc. really) to see at least those things done right that are easily done right...

I'm not expecting a movie to get the uniforms down to the last detail (which is illegal anyway) but is it soooo hard to salute correctly?

and speaking for the whole undead community, Resident Evil anyone?, the actors went through zombie school...

so comparing the effort put into zombies to the effort put into soldiers...

 Eh true, but all I know is that the game shouldn't be too realistic. It's nice to get the details, but the story is about the large matters at hand, I would rather have them focus on that than be almsot down to the molecule on how things should run in the world of a military command state.

 And I understand you for taking a point of view of being in the forces. But I'm worried that if it was just like real-life, soldiers who had traumatic experiences IRL wouldn't want to play a game that would simulate those feelings and start some havoc.... doesn't always happen, but some horrors just shouldn't be reminded of.

 Of course I would love to get it spot on, so then it is realistic, but like I said the escapism I think really inspires the aspect that we can create these universes that are like ours but viewing them differently, as people do. I mean some people would view having their best friend die as like you leave Kaiden or Ash on Virmire to die, or something like that, like a real emotional consequence that lives on.

  So many standpoints, so many truths, so many reality checks, but everything is not enough. Who knows, maybe the next game will be more revolved around a soldier in the frontlines than a Galactic Super Stud/Chick?

Modifié par Untonic, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Yate]

'Soldier' seems to have a different connotation in the ME universe, as it's a class like Engineer or Vanguard. Other things are good points though. It should be simple to swap the salute animations, right? A patch would be wonderful.

[Grubas]

Ok but from all things why be upset about the lefthanded salute? Why not about something else?
ME is not an accurate depiction of modern military, and it never claimed to be.

I dont mind discussing and comparing it, its very interesting. Just i think you demand that bioware takes modern military customs into consideration when creating their fictional storys. Like they should seak official aproval from an expert.
But you know even offical military media fails to depict an authentic picture of military life.

[Adanu]

... are you people still whining about this crap? Repeat after me.

This. is. a. game. with. no. bearing. on. real. life. set. nearly. two. centuries. after. our. time.

**** will change. Be glad they paid any attention to making ranks and such crap at all.

[Aravius]

ZombieGambit wrote...

crypticcat 2o2p wrote...
Shepard is a Commander. Maybe in the future, ranks across branches of the military are unified, blurring the lines between army/navy/airforce because of the need to have one singular military presence in space.
As far as I can piece together, the ranks are:
Yeoman;
Serviceman;
Corporal;
Specialist;
Chief;
Lieutenant;
Lieutenant Commander;
Commander;
Captain;
Rear Admiral;
Admiral.
So maybe the branches that make out the Alliance's military presence like to pay hommage to their heritage by using old idiom liberally?

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander, that fact is just never mentioned it seems.

Official Systems Alliance ranks:

• Serviceman 3rd class/Private 2nd class
• Serviceman 2nd class/Private 1st class
• Serviceman 1st class/Corporal (Jenkins ME1)

NCOs

• Service Chief
• Gunnery Chief (Ashley ME1)
• Operations Chief (Ashley ME2)

Officers

• 2nd Lieutenant
• 1st Lieutenant (James ME3)
• Staff Lieutenant (Kaidan ME1)
• Lieutenant Commander (Shepard ME series  and Ashley ME3)
• Staff Commander (Kaidan ME2)
• Captain/Major (Anderson ME1, Dr. Chakwas ME series, and Kaidan ME3)
• Rear Admiral/General
• Admiral (Hackett ME series and Anderson ME3)
• Fleet Admiral

How Ashley went from an NCO to Lieutenant Commnder in 3 years is a mystery and Kaidan also rose too quickly, he even outranks Shepard. Joker also mistakenly says something about the Virmire Survivor "pulling a gun on a superior officer," yeah no, neither are his subordinates. Even Hackett's rank is messed up considering that in previous games he was Admiral of the 5th Fleet only, but suddenly in ME3 he's still just an Admiral, not Fleet Admiral, and in command of all the Alliance fleets.

I don't even even know where things like Yeoman, Specialist, or Flight Lieutenant fit.

I think your ranking is wrong. Shepard is a Commander or O-5, Kaiden is a Major or O-4

[Arathyl]

ZombieGambit wrote...

I think I replied to this thread a month ago, but I'm going to respond again anyway.

Things that bother me:
1. No real distinction between the Alliance Navy and the Alliance Marines.

Obviously regular Marines aren't trained to fly the ships and sailors, I guess you'd called them, aren't trained for ground combat, so why are there not two branches or even clear distinctions in ranks?

2. Kaidan and Ashley rise through the ranks much too quickly.

There's no way a Staff Lieutenant would be made a Staff Commander in 2 years and a Major after one more. That's 3 ranks in 3 years and he outranked Shepard, a Lieutenant Commander, back in ME2, that makes no sense at all. Ashley's rise is even more improbable, she went from non-commissioned officer in ME2, Operations Chief, to Lieutenant Commander an actual officer rank, a jump of 4 ranks in 1 year.

3. Occasional saluting mistakes.

Sometimes characters use their left hands, which is against the rules in all militaries apart from extreme circumstances like having an injured or otherwise disabled right hand/arm. There's also the deal with people of a higher or equal ranks saluting Shepard, particularly the Virmire Survivors.

4. There being almost no enlisted personnel at all mentioned in any of the 3 games. Off the top of my head I can think of Privates Westmoreland and Campbell, Ensign Copeland, and Specialist Traynor on the Normandy in ME3. Everyone else is an officer.

Joker is a Flight Lieutenant, Vega is a Lieutenant (I don't know specifically which rank), Cortez is a Lieutenant, Adams is a Lieutenant, Dr. Chakwas is a Major, Kaidan is a Major, and Ashley is a Lieutenant Commander. There seems to be a ridiculous amount of officers in the Alliance.

5. The Alliance using supposedly sub-par small arms to outfit their troops.

In every cutscene and instance that there are Alliance Marines using small arms they always carry the M-8 Avenger or the M-3 Predator. The Avenger is a cheap knock-off of the Lancer, what was originally the Alliance's standard issue rifle, and the Predator's description says it's not used by militaries.

There are plenty of other weapons that have descriptions saying they're used by the Alliance, but they never ever show up in the hands of anyone except Shepard and his Squadmates. The Valkyrie, Saber, Falcon, Eagle, Crusader, Valiant, Black Widow, Hurricane, Locust, and Phalanx are all Alliance weapons, why didn't BioWare give them to the Alliance. I actually recall a cutscene with a Cerberus Trooper carrying the Locust and a couple salarians carrying the Falcon. The Phalanx is also carried by all Cerberus Combat Engineers, but not a single Alliance Marine is ever seen carrying anything except the Avenger or the Predator...

IT'S THE ILLUSIVE MAN! SOMEBODY GET HIM!!!

[Maxga]

gen. Italia wrote...

One other thing: why alien races have the same military ranks as humans?
former Polish Navy soldier here

That is probably a translation from the alien language into English or whatever future language everyone is speaking. 

[DreGregoire]

Aravius wrote...
I think your ranking is wrong. Shepard is a Commander or O-5, Kaiden is a Major or O-4

Here Codex Screenshot about Alliance ranks from ME1 showing how Bioware sees the ranks. *shrugs*

Modifié par DreGregoire, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Chris Priestly wrote...

You know this is a video game and not, you know, real life, right?

No, they apparently don't.

I think Star Trek fans whine less than these guys.

[Bierwichtel]

And I repeat, this is a matter of pride and respect.

Someone who never served can not in any way understand this.

of course it is just a game...

btw soldiers do not whine, well chair force does... (maybe no offence flyboys )

---
lead, follow or get the f'ck out of my way.

[Bierwichtel]

Modifié par Bierwichtel, 15 septembre 2012 - 12:15 .

[N7 Lisbeth]

DreGregoire wrote...

Aravius wrote...
I think your ranking is wrong. Shepard is a Commander or O-5, Kaiden is a Major or O-4

Here Codex Screenshot about Alliance ranks from ME1 showing how Bioware sees the ranks. *shrugs*

Unless I'm wildly missing something:

In ME1: Shepard is O-4, Lieutenant Commander. Kaidan is O-2, Lieutenant. Ashley is E-5 (not equivalent to RL ranks), Gunnery Chief.

In ME2: Shepard is promoted to O-5, Staff Commander. Kaidan is promoted to O-5 Staff Commander. Ashley is promoted to E-6 (not equivalent to RL ranks) Operations Chief.

In ME3: Shepard is arrested after events of ME2 (Cerberus ties or Cerberus ties plus Arrival DLC consequences), spends six months in the brig, and reinstated as previous O-5 Staff Commander. Kaidan is promoted to O-6, Major. Ashley is promoted to O-4 Lieutenant Commander. (Unsure if she was promoted to O-5 when she was fully invested as a Spectre.)

I think Aravius mixed up Navy and Marine ranks there for Kaidan. (Major for Marines is O-4.) Mass Effect frankensteins the USN (for officers) and the USM (for enlisted) ranks together. To make things a little more confusing, they vastly truncate the Enlisted ranks so it doesn't match.

Without reading the majority of the posts here, I'm guessing a lot of the hubbub is about the enlisted ranks.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 15 septembre 2012 - 12:59 .