53 réponses à ce sujet

[F4H bandicoot]

David7204 wrote...

What exactly do you think communication is? It's the conveying of information.

Indeed it is. However, the QEC's don't transmit or convey any data through space, they work on a quantum level, this is why there's no lag even when you are on the other side of the galaxy to the other, whereas with standard equipment there would be.
The only way you could jam it is by interfering with how the thing works on a quantum level I would assume.

[Tealjaker94]

David7204 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Learn a bit of physics...

When talking to Anderson on the Normandy, it's clearly real-time communications. That means it's definitely not lightspeed comms via electromagnetic signals. QEC's and comm buoys are the only FTL comms known, and as far as I know, only QEC's are instantaneous real-time comms.

Oh, so I guess when to speak to someone in real time on the phone, it must involve quantum physics since real time communication without it is impossible. Is that right?

 
Do you talk to people in different star clusters using your phone?

[RadicalDisconnect]

David7204 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

David7204 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

devSin wrote...

The whole idea of it is silly. Everybody in the galaxy has a QEC paired with the Normandy now.

Just make up some excuse. The game is full of things that are absurd.

What's even funnier is that Anderson was able to communicate to the Normandy using random QEC's on Earth. Oh, and in London, you have a handy-dandy QEC that apparently has quantum pairs with all your previous squadmates. What, does the ME universe have quantum triplets? Quantum qradruplets?

Oh my God. Why don't you use your brain for a minute? Just because the fundamental core of the system is point-to-point doesn't mean it can't be rerouted through regular lightspeed or FTL communications.

Learn a bit of physics...

When talking to Anderson on the Normandy, it's clearly real-time communications. That means it's definitely not lightspeed comms via electromagnetic signals. QEC's and comm buoys are the only FTL comms known, and as far as I know, only QEC's are instantaneous real-time comms.

Oh, so I guess when to speak to someone in real time on the phone, it must involve quantum physics since real time communication without it is impossible. Is that right?

LEARN SOME PHYSICS

On Earth, the delay is negligible because light travels so fast. When you're thousands of light years away, the situation is different.

Just to help your knowledge, this is the speed of light.

[David7204]

Do you people understand what rerouting is? Do you understand that it's possible to copy a signal and send it out again?

I'll repost. The answer is stupidly simple. The QEC connects to a station on Earth instantly, which in turn rerouts it using conventional lightspeed signals to wherever Anderson is and vice-versa.

Modifié par David7204, 01 août 2012 - 11:15 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What exactly do you think communication is? It's the conveying of information.

Indeed it is. However, the QEC's don't transmit or convey any data through space, they work on a quantum level, this is why there's no lag even when you are on the other side of the galaxy to the other, whereas with standard equipment there would be.
The only way you could jam it is by interfering with how the thing works on a quantum level I would assume.

As I said, it could be that the ME universe has fictional things like quantum level jammers and quantum triplets/quads/however-many-the-author-wants.

[AlanC9]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

xsdob wrote...

When was quantum entanglement jammed?

Beginning with Admiral Hackett.

Which only means that Hackett isn't on the ship with Normandy's pair in that scene.

[RadicalDisconnect]

David7204 wrote...

Do you people understand what rerouting is? Do you understand that it's possible to copy a signal and send it out again?

I'll repost. The answer is stupidly simple. The QEC connects to a station on Earth instantly, which in turn rerouts it using conventional lightspeed signals to wherever Anderson is and vice-versa.

QEC hub on Earth? Okay, that's a bit better. Still, a QEC hub on Earth seems like an easy target for reapers. To a giant space cuttlefish, what can a strong source of conventional comms signal possibly mean?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 01 août 2012 - 11:21 .

[EsterCloat]

Hackett's quantum entanglement input device was on the fritz.

[F4H bandicoot]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Do you people understand what rerouting is? Do you understand that it's possible to copy a signal and send it out again?

I'll repost. The answer is stupidly simple. The QEC connects to a station on Earth instantly, which in turn rerouts it using conventional lightspeed signals to wherever Anderson is and vice-versa.

QEC hub on Earth? Okay, that's a bit better. Still, a QEC hub on Earth seems like an easy target for reapers. To a giant space cuttlefish, what can a strong source of conventional comms signal possibly mean?

We are even told the Harby's crew target communication centres, powerplants first etc first, as these stop people eascaping, and stop word from spreading, I doubt he would forget his plans as he reaped over the hub.

[AlanC9]

devSin wrote...

The whole idea of it is silly. Everybody in the galaxy has a QEC paired with the Normandy now.

Just make up some excuse. The game is full of things that are absurd.

That's a bit much . It's sensible for the governments to have QEC links between their political and military HQs, and Alliance Command can just relay to the Normandy. Anderson's got an operating link somewhere on Earth. Anyone else using one?

You'd definitely want any  hub somewhere in deep space, and preferably mobile.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 août 2012 - 11:24 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

devSin wrote...

The whole idea of it is silly. Everybody in the galaxy has a QEC paired with the Normandy now.

Just make up some excuse. The game is full of things that are absurd.

I find the idea that just about everyone in the whole goddamn galaxy knows Shepard's extranet contact info.

Does Cerberus/Alliance hand out that info to anyone out on the street?

[F4H bandicoot]

AlanC9 wrote...

devSin wrote...

The whole idea of it is silly. Everybody in the galaxy has a QEC paired with the Normandy now.

Just make up some excuse. The game is full of things that are absurd.

That's a bit much . It's sensible for the governments to have QEC links between their political and military HQs, and Alliance Command can just relay to the Normandy. Anderson's got an operating link somewhere on Earth. Anyone else using one?

You'd definitely want any  hub somewhere in deep space, and preferably mobile.

But QEC's were a stupid thing to have only 6 months early because only the TIm appears to have one.
In some respects I think it's only included en masse in 3 because it sounds futuristic and cool. 

[M920CAIN]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Quantum entanglement communicators rely on quantum pairs that always share the same quantum state. Thus, shouldn't communications via quantum bits be immune to traditional electromagnetic jamming?

The only disadvantage to QEC's is their point-to-point nature means that you need a lot of quantum entangled pairs to have comms with all ships. Mathematically, it's N(N + 1) number of pairs (two pairs for two-way comms), where N is the number of ships you want in your network. It can potentially be costly and inefficient.

Well according to the codex, you are right, but QEC technology is one part of "future technology", for sending information you need 2 things: device and medium (in our case cable, waves, quantum bits... etc). Maybe the device that recorded Hackett's message was partly broken, the medium was working fine, but the device was performing poorly.

[luk3us]

In ME2 it was fine, but then in ME3 they forgot the lore behind it.

Its the same thing with Thanix missiles.... It sounds cool, but if you think about it...

[M920CAIN]

M920CAIN wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Quantum entanglement communicators rely on quantum pairs that always share the same quantum state. Thus, shouldn't communications via quantum bits be immune to traditional electromagnetic jamming?

The only disadvantage to QEC's is their point-to-point nature means that you need a lot of quantum entangled pairs to have comms with all ships. Mathematically, it's N(N + 1) number of pairs (two pairs for two-way comms), where N is the number of ships you want in your network. It can potentially be costly and inefficient.

Well according to the codex, you are right, but QEC technology is one part of "future technology", for sending information you need 2 things: device and medium (in our case cable, waves, quantum bits... etc). Maybe the device that recorded Hackett's message was partly broken, the medium was working fine, but the device was performing poorly. Mmm kinda like fiber optics, lots of bandwidth to use, but if you record with a ****ty webcam u still send out a ****ty message.

[devSin]

AlanC9 wrote...

That's a bit much . It's sensible for the governments to have QEC links between their political and military HQs, and Alliance Command can just relay to the Normandy. Anderson's got an operating link somewhere on Earth. Anyone else using one?

You'd definitely want any  hub somewhere in deep space, and preferably mobile.

You still have to relay the information normally, and then figure out how to construct that information at the source in a way so that the correct interaction happens.

We know there's one on the Citadel (that Miranda somehow uses). We know the salarians (both the councilor and the dalatrass) have access to one. We'll assume that the salarian and asari councilor are using the one from the Citadel. The dalatrass is on Sur'Kesh, so they have one. The quarians somehow have one. Hackett and Anderson both have access (Hackett's not on Earth, so either the conversation with both of them can't be happening in real time or they both have their own setups).

So although we could speculate that there's some sort of hub (if such a thing is even possible), they would still have to receive the communication over normal channels (the FTL comm buoys and such). This doesn't seem like something you would want to bank on in the middle of galactic annihilation (and it wouldn't make sense for the allied races to use it, then, since they could just contact the Normandy directly over standard FTL comms).

[inko1nsiderate]

Ok, I'm a physicist, so let's talk some physics.

First:

In real quantum entanglement the pairs have to be entangled at creation of the pair of particles (eg they are now described as a super position of possible quantum states that are constrained by some conservation law to have corresponding values when the quantum state is measured). These entangled pairs then have to be transmitted some distance, and then measured.

Second:

After these pairs are measured they are no longer entangled. Measuring a entangled pair of particles removes their correlation between states.

Third:

The correlation between states of entangled pairs is only evident after you have measured the states of objects, and compared the data to the other experiment that measured the states of these objects. You then see that Bell's Inequality is exactly followed. In principle, you cannot use them to communicate FTL because the correlation between states is only evident when comparing ensembles of the two experiments.  This comparison necessarily requires coventional communication.

Fourth:

There is such a thing as a quantum singlet, doublet, triplet, etc. The image most people have in their mind of a entangled state is one of a spin singlet quantum state. There is no net spin, so at the end of the day the entangled particles must be measured in opposite spin states if there is conservation of angular momentum.

Fifth:

Based on the real physics each QEC can only transmit as many bits as it has entangled pairs, entangled pairs are destroyed when they are measured, so even if we ignore that we can't transmit information faster than the speed of light in a meaningful way with quantum entanglement, we still have the problem that a QEC has to be hard wired to another QEC and can only be used a finite amount of times and would also have a limited amount of total data that could be sent in the lifetime of the two entangled QECs.

From this point on I am going to ignore the actual physics and assume that QEC's work, but keep some of the basic physical principles of real quantum entanglement, but somehow kill relativity and you're able to somehow re-entangle particles after they've been measured to 'transmit' information.

Six:

Even if we ignore most of the previous points, the quantum states are fragile. An errant photon (electron) and your entangled electron (photon) is no longer entangled. That means interference can happen if there is enough outside particle flux near a QEC such that a lot of the transmitted data is, essentially, random measurement that wasn't part of your QEC's design specs and thus cannot be used as useful signal.

Seventh:

Interference in quantum mechanics comes down entirely to relative phase between two quantum states (true interference, of the wave kind, not of your signal degrading because your quantum states were collapsed by an outside source). If you sent a beam of particles in similar states as the QEC uses, but with a different phase, you could (in principle) selectively interfere with the QEC on the quantum mechanical level.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 02 août 2012 - 12:09 .

[devSin]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Even if we ignore most of the previous points, the quantum states are fragile. An errant photon (electron) and your entangled electron (photon) is no longer entangled. That means interference can happen if there is enough outside particle flux near a QEC such that a lot of the transmitted data is, essentially, random measurement that wasn't part of your QEC's design specs and thus cannot be used as useful signal.

But don't you need to abandon this as well to even approach the presentation in the game?

Could something overcome any shielding on the QEC unit and actually be simple stray particles? (It seems this would either happen all the time or not at all.)

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Interference in quantum mechanics comes down entirely to relative phase between two quantum states (true interference, of the wave kind, not of your signal degrading because your quantum states were collapsed by an outside source). If you sent a beam of particles in similar states as the QEC uses, but with a different phase, you could (in principle) selectively interfere with the QEC on the quantum mechanical level.

That doesn't sound like something EDI could "clean up". :-)

In other words, even if it's possible to interfere with it, is it actually possible for it to be overcome on only one end?

[LucasShark]

Short of destroying the device itself? yes.

Something else about their univers eBioware completely forgot... add to the list...

[inko1nsiderate]

devSin wrote...
But don't you need to abandon this as well to even approach the presentation in the game?

Could something overcome any shielding on the QEC unit and actually be simple stray particles? (It seems this would either happen all the time or not at all.)

That doesn't sound like something EDI could "clean up". :-)

In other words, even if it's possible to interfere with it, is it actually possible for it to be overcome on only one end?

Things that could penetrate the shielding and be stray particles:

neutrinos, some kinds of dark matter partilces, other exotic particles that are weakly interacting with standard model particles, any weakly interacting particle that travels through the shield before decaying into strongly interacting partilce (eg any kind of dark matter).  

What I was implying is that they Reapers could shut down most communication with just bursts of random particles.  Increase the background flux of particles like neutrinos, dark matter, or more boring particles like electrons and photons and you can hamper communication of many kinds.

Perhaps more importantly, the interference doesn't even need to happen at the entangled pairs either.  It can happen in the wires, it can happen in the projection device.  Anything that increases signal to noise ratio will do it.

EDI could perhaps clean it up because that kind of 'quantum' interference would have a different signature than random interference (it will look more akin to neutrino oscillation than, say, brownian motion).  With a complicated enough alogirithim she may be able to improve the signal to noise ratio.

If we are abandoning most of the real physics, then I say that the interference is actually do to Reapers interfering with whatever physical process the QECs use to constantly re-entangle particles between QECs.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 02 août 2012 - 12:53 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

inko1nsiderate, we need more people like you on the boards.

Based on what you know, even if the QEC can "re-entangle" the pairs, would it make sense for all reapers to communicate to each other via QEC? You will need N(N + 1) number of pairs where N is the number of reaper ships.

[inko1nsiderate]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

inko1nsiderate, we need more people like you on the boards.

Based on what you know, even if the QEC can "re-entangle" the pairs, would it make sense for all reapers to communicate to each other via QEC? You will need N(N + 1) number of pairs where N is the number of reaper ships.

You'd need those bare minimum.  Presumably there is some time scale for re-entanglement, so you'd need N(N+1)*B where B is the maximum number of bits you want to have in your network sent in the time scale for re-entanglement.

[wizardryforever]

I would say that you don't have quantum entangled pairs with everyone you talk to on the com.  Probably just Anderson and Hackett.  The others likely just use the regular comm network to talk to you.  The asari and salarian councilors, and the dalatross just call you up using the phone.  Like the council did in ME1.  I think Traynor even says that you have a call on a secure channel when the dalatross calls you for the sabotage offer.  This implies that it isn't a quantum pair call, or it would automatically be secure.

[RadicalDisconnect]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

inko1nsiderate, we need more people like you on the boards.

Based on what you know, even if the QEC can "re-entangle" the pairs, would it make sense for all reapers to communicate to each other via QEC? You will need N(N + 1) number of pairs where N is the number of reaper ships.

You'd need those bare minimum.  Presumably there is some time scale for re-entanglement, so you'd need N(N+1)*B where B is the maximum number of bits you want to have in your network sent in the time scale for re-entanglement.

Wow. That seems a bit inefficient. And what about the husks? If I remember correctly, reapers can use husks as communication nodes for other husks and reapers. It's looking like QEC is making less and less sense.

On another note, are there things such as quantum triplets, quadruplets, and so on so forth?

[shepdog77]

Wow, more and more nitpicking...