266 réponses à ce sujet

[ld1449]

txgoldrush wrote...



Please, if you can't tell that the main theme of ME3 is sacrifice and the main theme of the entire series is the conflict between the created and the creators (not overcoming all odds or uniting everybody), than you are too ignorant to criticize.

The theme of sacrifice was shoehorned in by walters. ME1 and ME2's themes, are about strength through unity, overcoming odds, overcoming the disparity of diversity.

Sacrifice was made baceuse one writer, who just so happened to be the Directors best friend liked nihilism and decided that what he said went and what he says goes.

The only "created and creator" conflict, is the geth, which was barely present in ME1 seeing as how we didn't see quarians, besides Tali, was barely present in ME2 because all we saw were "heretic" geth, and was resolved in ME3.

If you wish to find something other than ignorance you should examine the novelty of looking beyond your mirror every now and again.

[incinerator950]

Random Jerkface wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

I'll keep that in mind.

My friend, they are words to live by. I wouldn't look nearly as good as I do today if I hadn't slaughtered countless villages in my youth.

Well, I presented myself in a clean and reasonable fashion eating people. 

[txgoldrush]

ld1449 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...



Please, if you can't tell that the main theme of ME3 is sacrifice and the main theme of the entire series is the conflict between the created and the creators (not overcoming all odds or uniting everybody), than you are too ignorant to criticize.

The theme of sacrifice was shoehorned in by walters. ME1 and ME2's themes, are about strength through unity, overcoming odds, overcoming the disparity of diversity.

Sacrifice was made baceuse one writer, who just so happened to be the Directors best friend liked nihilism and decided that what he said went and what he says goes.

The only "created and creator" conflict, is the geth, which was barely present in ME1 seeing as how we didn't see quarians, besides Tali, was barely present in ME2 because all we saw were "heretic" geth, and was resolved in ME3.

If you wish to find something other than ignorance you should examine the novelty of looking beyond your mirror every now and again.

WRONG

Sacrifice while it isn't the main theme, was in ME1 and ME2.....try the end conversation with Harbinger in Arrival, especialy Renegade.

Please...sacrifice is all over ME3. Tarquin Victus, Rila, Grunt, Eve, Mordin, Legion, Thane, Koris (if not saved), Prangely (if Jack dies in ME2) and more....nevermind that sacrifice is talked about extensively throughout the conversations with the squad in ME3, and the value of the lives lost in the conflict.

Only "creator vs created" conflict the geth. Oh nevermind the hundred moments where something that was created, either literally like an AI, or uplifted to fit a purpose rebelled....friends and foes alike.

Cerberus against the Alliance, Krogan against the Galaxy, Rachni against the Protheans, Rachni against Binary Helix, Thorian against ExoGeni, Jack against Cerberus and the scientists on Pragia, Miranda aginst her father, Rachni against Cerberus, Geth against the Quarians, Overlord VI against Cerberus, infected VI against the workers, EDI against Cerberus, Yahg Broker against the old one, and the entire Reaper threat...a created who truned against his creators in the name of trying to contain the conflict between the created and the creators.....woops, there goes your argument.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 02 août 2012 - 08:11 .

[D24O]

Creator/Created relations would be a better label than Versus.

[Sebby]

The main "themes" of ME have always been juvenile power tripping and boning space waifu/manfu not "sacrifice".

[Uncle Jo]

txgoldrush wrote...

*insane troll logic and insults*

You're not worth the discussion.

[incinerator950]

Seboist wrote...

The main "themes" of ME have always been juvenile power tripping and boning space waifu/manfu not "sacrifice".

Sad but true.

[Uncle Jo]

D24O wrote...

Creator/Created relations would be a better label than Versus.

That was actually one of the main themes of the games along with Reapers against every one.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 août 2012 - 09:02 .

[devSin]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Dogg, that is called "being decent," not "depth."

Actually, Dusty wrote all the banter between James and Steve (he wrote the lines for both). That's why they're generally awesome.

From what I understand, the author for a mission will write all the lines for that mission, including the banter and interjections for all the squad. So Mac wrote everybody on Mars. John wrote everybody on Tuchanka. Etc.

The conversations that the character writer are responsible for are the ones on the ship and on the Citadel (all the content that comes between missions).

Modifié par devSin, 02 août 2012 - 09:11 .

[txgoldrush]

Uncle Jo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

*insane troll logic and insults*

You're not worth the discussion.

Please....

Leviathan coming into play will strengthen my argument even further that the main theme is about the conflict between the created and the creators.

Oh wait, more new evidence of foreshadowing of the Crucible....watch the conversation between Shep, Hackett, and Anderson right after the Cerberus coup....it foreshadows three things....the Crucible isn't Prothean, it disperses energy (a blantant suggestion that its an energy source), and the dilemma on how to direct the energy at the Reapers.

Its all in th enarrative, haters miss it.

[Renmiri1]

Chris Hepler wrote Thane and EDI for ME3. Two big fails IMHO. Even if he is not responsible for the ****** EDI got, he maimed the character. EDI was more alive and human in ME2 without a body than in ME3. And Thane ? He completely retconned the character and ignored all of ME2 developments to make him a redshirt. A dramatic death was all Thane was in ME3. Tear jerker for teens.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 02 août 2012 - 09:36 .

[PoisonMushroom]

txgoldrush wrote...

Please....

Leviathan coming into play will strengthen my argument even further that the main theme is about the conflict between the created and the creators.

Oh wait, more new evidence of foreshadowing of the Crucible....watch the conversation between Shep, Hackett, and Anderson right after the Cerberus coup....it foreshadows three things....the Crucible isn't Prothean, it disperses energy (a blantant suggestion that its an energy source), and the dilemma on how to direct the energy at the Reapers.

Its all in th enarrative, haters miss it.

Themes aren't something that should be missable. They should be obvious and there should be signs of it everywhere because they're the core concepts that drive everything forward and tie everything together. It's not something that's just embedded deep in the narrative for only smart people to find. So saying 'it's all in the narrative, haters miss it' just reiterates the point that people did miss it, because it was only brushed upon as a concept.

In my opinion, the whole Quarian/Geth conflict was far less to do with creators/creations, and had much more to do with the arguement as to whether synthetics can be classed at real living things. 'Does this unit have a soul?' This ties in nicely with edi, and her development of more human-like qualities. And that all felt like part of what I'd consider to be the definitive theme of Mass Effect and that's unity; trying to find understanding and harmony despite differences. Destroy and synthesis butcher both of those themes respectively.

So you can say the themes were there, but I think you're lying to yourself. I also think you're doing exactly what Bioware did. They created an ending and tried to backpedal to through the story to try and find reasons why it fit. Twist parts to fit their new ending. Also no matter how much creator/creation conflict they put in the Leviathan DLC, it proves nothing. It's just another example of backpedalling. Nothing more than an attempt to add more creator/creation conflict so their ending fits better.

[txgoldrush]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Please....

Leviathan coming into play will strengthen my argument even further that the main theme is about the conflict between the created and the creators.

Oh wait, more new evidence of foreshadowing of the Crucible....watch the conversation between Shep, Hackett, and Anderson right after the Cerberus coup....it foreshadows three things....the Crucible isn't Prothean, it disperses energy (a blantant suggestion that its an energy source), and the dilemma on how to direct the energy at the Reapers.

Its all in th enarrative, haters miss it.

Themes aren't something that should be missable. They should be obvious and there should be signs of it everywhere because they're the core concepts that drive everything forward and tie everything together. It's not something that's just embedded deep in the narrative for only smart people to find. So saying 'it's all in the narrative, haters miss it' just reiterates the point that people did miss it, because it was only brushed upon as a concept.

In my opinion, the whole Quarian/Geth conflict was far less to do with creators/creations, and had much more to do with the arguement as to whether synthetics can be classed at real living things. 'Does this unit have a soul?' This ties in nicely with edi, and her development of more human-like qualities. And that all felt like part of what I'd consider to be the definitive theme of Mass Effect and that's unity; trying to find understanding and harmony despite differences. Destroy and synthesis butcher both of those themes respectively.

So you can say the themes were there, but I think you're lying to yourself. I also think you're doing exactly what Bioware did. They created an ending and tried to backpedal to through the story to try and find reasons why it fit. Twist parts to fit their new ending. Also no matter how much creator/creation conflict they put in the Leviathan DLC, it proves nothing. It's just another example of backpedalling. Nothing more than an attempt to add more creator/creation conflict so their ending fits better.

Sorry, but the theme of sacrifice (the main theme of ME3) is NOT been brushed through, it was DEFINED throughout the game, and definitely ends on the theme in the EC. In fact, you can say the Paragon and Renegade system is heavily based on sacrifice in ME3, the foil between Shepard and TIM revolves around this theme, and the ending defines the theme. There is so many conversations about sacrifice, it should be highly obvious.

"In my opinion, the whole Quarian/Geth conflict was far less to do with creators/creations, and had much more to do with the arguement as to whether synthetics can be classed at real living things."

How do the created rebel against their creators? Maybe because they expand beyond what the creators intended. Thats what the geth did, they became sentient, the quarians didn't want this, and so teh geth fought back. Yes, EDI learning to understand organics is huge, however, because she has..she turns against her creators, Cerberus.

"And that all felt like part of what I'd consider to be the definitive theme of Mass Effect and that's unity; trying to find understanding and harmony despite differences. Destroy and synthesis butcher both of those themes respectively."

Because its simply not the theme of the series, thats what fans do not get. It really wasn't a theme in ME1 because the Renegade is allowed to subvert it. ME2 was about loyalty, not getting people to work together. Only in ME3 does it become a theme, but its not the main theme. Its a secondary theme.

Hell, what do TVTropers think the main theme of the series is.....

http://tvtropes.org/...ffect/TropesA-D

[Allstar27]

Sorry for asking this (haven't read the entire thread) but who wrote Ashley in ME3?

[PoisonMushroom]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but the theme of sacrifice (the main theme of ME3) is NOT been brushed through, it was DEFINED throughout the game, and definitely ends on the theme in the EC. In fact, you can say the Paragon and Renegade system is heavily based on sacrifice in ME3, the foil between Shepard and TIM revolves around this theme, and the ending defines the theme. There is so many conversations about sacrifice, it should be highly obvious.

"In my opinion, the whole Quarian/Geth conflict was far less to do with creators/creations, and had much more to do with the arguement as to whether synthetics can be classed at real living things."

How do the created rebel against their creators? Maybe because they expand beyond what the creators intended. Thats what the geth did, they became sentient, the quarians didn't want this, and so teh geth fought back. Yes, EDI learning to understand organics is huge, however, because she has..she turns against her creators, Cerberus.

"And that all felt like part of what I'd consider to be the definitive theme of Mass Effect and that's unity; trying to find understanding and harmony despite differences. Destroy and synthesis butcher both of those themes respectively."

Because its simply not the theme of the series, thats what fans do not get. It really wasn't a theme in ME1 because the Renegade is allowed to subvert it. ME2 was about loyalty, not getting people to work together. Only in ME3 does it become a theme, but its not the main theme. Its a secondary theme.

Hell, what do TVTropers think the main theme of the series is.....

http://tvtropes.org/...ffect/TropesA-D

'Sorry, but the theme of sacrifice (the main theme of ME3) is NOT
been brushed through, it was DEFINED throughout the game, and definitely
ends on the theme in the EC. In fact, you can say the Paragon and
Renegade system is heavily based on sacrifice in ME3, the foil between
Shepard and TIM revolves around this theme, and the ending defines the
theme. There is so many conversations about sacrifice, it should be
highly obvious.'

I didn't mention sacrifice, at all. I was quoting something you'd said about creator/creation conflict.

'How do the created rebel against their creators? Maybe because they
expand beyond what the creators intended. Thats what the geth did, they
became sentient, the quarians didn't want this, and so teh geth fought
back. Yes, EDI learning to understand organics is huge, however, because
she has..she turns against her creators, Cerberus.'

The Geth weren't rebelling, they were responding to violence. The sentience aspect is what's important. It's unity again; working in harmony and towards understanding. Acting against this concept is usually shown as being a bad thing in Mass Effect. The Quarians didn't understand the Geth's new found sentience, and rather than trying to understand them, they acted against this concept of unity and tried and destroy them. It works out badly for everyone.

Being the diplomatic shepard and working towards unity painted as being the best option. Side with the Geth, Tali tries to kill herself. Side with Quarians, someone kills Legion. Make peace and achieve unity and everyone is happy. The creator/creation conflict wasn't what it was really about. There was no dialogue about how synthetics and organics are destined to fight. It was the exact opposite. The whole war was painted as being a tragic event that didn't need to happen, if the Quarian's had worked towards trying to understand the Geth. It was unity good, working against unity bad.

EDI didn't rebel because she had deemed herself superior to organics or any of the things the catalyst eludes to. She did exactly what Jacob, Miranda and the Cerberus scientists did. They left Cerberus because cerberus became uber-villains and TIM went absolutely nuts. So that had nothing to do with synthetics.

'Because its simply not the theme of the series, thats what fans do not
get. It really wasn't a theme in ME1 because the Renegade is allowed to
subvert it. ME2 was about loyalty, not getting people to work together.
Only in ME3 does it become a theme, but its not the main theme. Its a
secondary theme.'

I think you're wrong if you don't think it was a strong theme throughout. It was strongest in ME3, I'll give you that but it's been a big deal since day one. Also, the option to subvert the theme doesn't mean the theme didn't exist. If anything this should be further proof that the theme was there to begin with!

ME1 - Much more about a lack of unity. which is the perfect setup for a trilogy about working towards unity. Start ununified and with your help end united. That's pretty much exactly how the trilogy plays out. Humans don't yet have a place in the galaxy. Lots of xenophobia which you can try to work against. The final choices are about unity. You can save the council despite the fact they overlooked humanity or you can subvert unity and just look out for humanity's best interests.

ME2 - TIM is constantly trying to put humanity first. He's a villain. The whole game is about uniting people from all over the galaxy to fight together because it's this diverse selection of people that's required for the job. Legion is introduced, which shows a whole other side to the geth. Leaving him unactivated achieves nothing. Activate and try and understand the Geth is a step towards peace.

ME3 - It's a game about uniting the galaxy to stop the Reapers. Your attempts to unite the galaxy are literally graded with the EMS score. Secondary theme really?

Modifié par PoisonMushroom, 03 août 2012 - 12:37 .

[txgoldrush]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but the theme of sacrifice (the main theme of ME3) is NOT been brushed through, it was DEFINED throughout the game, and definitely ends on the theme in the EC. In fact, you can say the Paragon and Renegade system is heavily based on sacrifice in ME3, the foil between Shepard and TIM revolves around this theme, and the ending defines the theme. There is so many conversations about sacrifice, it should be highly obvious.

"In my opinion, the whole Quarian/Geth conflict was far less to do with creators/creations, and had much more to do with the arguement as to whether synthetics can be classed at real living things."

How do the created rebel against their creators? Maybe because they expand beyond what the creators intended. Thats what the geth did, they became sentient, the quarians didn't want this, and so teh geth fought back. Yes, EDI learning to understand organics is huge, however, because she has..she turns against her creators, Cerberus.

"And that all felt like part of what I'd consider to be the definitive theme of Mass Effect and that's unity; trying to find understanding and harmony despite differences. Destroy and synthesis butcher both of those themes respectively."

Because its simply not the theme of the series, thats what fans do not get. It really wasn't a theme in ME1 because the Renegade is allowed to subvert it. ME2 was about loyalty, not getting people to work together. Only in ME3 does it become a theme, but its not the main theme. Its a secondary theme.

Hell, what do TVTropers think the main theme of the series is.....

http://tvtropes.org/...ffect/TropesA-D

'Sorry, but the theme of sacrifice (the main theme of ME3) is NOT
been brushed through, it was DEFINED throughout the game, and definitely
ends on the theme in the EC. In fact, you can say the Paragon and
Renegade system is heavily based on sacrifice in ME3, the foil between
Shepard and TIM revolves around this theme, and the ending defines the
theme. There is so many conversations about sacrifice, it should be
highly obvious.'

I didn't mention sacrifice, at all. I was quoting something you'd said about creator/creation conflict.

'How do the created rebel against their creators? Maybe because they
expand beyond what the creators intended. Thats what the geth did, they
became sentient, the quarians didn't want this, and so teh geth fought
back. Yes, EDI learning to understand organics is huge, however, because
she has..she turns against her creators, Cerberus.'

The Geth weren't rebelling, they were responding to violence. The sentience aspect is what's important. It's unity again; working in harmony and towards understanding. Acting against this concept is usually shown as being a bad thing in Mass Effect. The Quarians didn't understand the Geth's new found sentience, and rather than trying to understand them, they acted against this concept of unity and tried and destroy them. It works out badly for everyone.

Being the diplomatic shepard and working towards unity painted as being the best option. Side with the Geth, Tali tries to kill herself. Side with Quarians, someone kills Legion. Make peace and achieve unity and everyone is happy. The creator/creation conflict wasn't what it was really about. There was no dialogue about how synthetics and organics are destined to fight. It was the exact opposite. The whole war was painted as being a tragic event that didn't need to happen, if the Quarian's had worked towards trying to understand the Geth. It was unity good, working against unity bad.

EDI didn't rebel because she had deemed herself superior to organics or any of the things the catalyst eludes to. She did exactly what Jacob, Miranda and the Cerberus scientists did. They left Cerberus because cerberus became uber-villains and TIM went absolutely nuts. So that had nothing to do with synthetics.

'Because its simply not the theme of the series, thats what fans do not
get. It really wasn't a theme in ME1 because the Renegade is allowed to
subvert it. ME2 was about loyalty, not getting people to work together.
Only in ME3 does it become a theme, but its not the main theme. Its a
secondary theme.'

I think you're wrong if you don't think it was a strong theme throughout. It was strongest in ME3, I'll give you that but it's been a big deal since day one. Also, the option to subvert the theme doesn't mean the theme didn't exist. If anything this should be further proof that the theme was there to begin with!

ME1 - Much more about a lack of unity. which is the perfect setup for a trilogy about working towards unity. Start ununified and with your help end united. That's pretty much exactly how the trilogy plays out. Humans don't yet have a place in the galaxy. Lots of xenophobia which you can try to work against. The final choices are about unity. You can save the council despite the fact they overlooked humanity or you can subvert unity and just look out for humanity's best interests.

ME2 - TIM is constantly trying to put humanity first. He's a villain. The whole game is about uniting people from all over the galaxy to fight together because it's this diverse selection of people that's required for the job. Legion is introduced, which shows a whole other side to the geth. Leaving him unactivated achieves nothing. Activate and try and understand the Geth is a step towards peace.

ME3 - It's a game about uniting the galaxy to stop the Reapers. Your attempts to unite the galaxy are literally graded with the EMS score. Secondary theme really?

You ar enot getting it.

Yes, the Geth and EDI have a good reason...but they still rebelled. Many cases the created are your allies, and other cases the created are your foes. In many cases teh creators were just misguided, in other cases they a plain evil, like Henry Lawson.

No, here are the CLEAR main themes in each game.....

ME1 is NOT about galactic unity, it is about humanity trying to find its place and its role in the galaxy. Paragons will use diplomacy and try to foster galactic relationships, while the Renegade will do anything possible to solve the problem and put humanity first. The very notion that Shepard can let the humans take over the galactic power ensures that unity is not the main theme here, but identity. See how the council in the Council survives ending views humanity through Shepard. However, the conflicts between created and the creators are abudant here. Feros, Noveria, Virmire, the use of Rachni by Cerberus and the Thorian by Exogeni, the AI funneling credits in the citadel, as well of course, the Geth. Nevermind the uplifting of the Krogan.

ME2 is not about uniting the team...in fact, it does a poor job of it because the crew doesn't socialize and their are only a few conflicts. The goal is to make everyone loyal and believe in the mission, which means solving personal issues. Its about preperation for a tough task. Thats the main theme. However, conflicts between created and creators...lets see Jack and Miranda are examples of created turning against creators, Zaeed's storyline of how his group turned on him and its important because they are significant foes in ME2, Jacobs father's fantasy world, the VI infected by the mech virus, the geth turning against Tali's father, the krogan subjects turning against Jedore, Project Overlord, the origins of the yahg Shadow Broker, and maybe even Samara and Morinth.

"
ME3 - It's a game about uniting the galaxy to stop the Reapers. Your attempts to unite the galaxy are literally graded with the EMS score. Secondary theme really?"

Yep because all results require sacrifice, the main theme of ME3.

[PoisonMushroom]

txgoldrush wrote...

You ar enot getting it.

Yes, the Geth and EDI have a good reason...but they still rebelled. Many cases the created are your allies, and other cases the created are your foes. In many cases teh creators were just misguided, in other cases they a plain evil, like Henry Lawson.

No, here are the CLEAR main themes in each game.....

ME1 is NOT about galactic unity, it is about humanity trying to find its place and its role in the galaxy. Paragons will use diplomacy and try to foster galactic relationships, while the Renegade will do anything possible to solve the problem and put humanity first. The very notion that Shepard can let the humans take over the galactic power ensures that unity is not the main theme here, but identity. See how the council in the Council survives ending views humanity through Shepard. However, the conflicts between created and the creators are abudant here. Feros, Noveria, Virmire, the use of Rachni by Cerberus and the Thorian by Exogeni, the AI funneling credits in the citadel, as well of course, the Geth. Nevermind the uplifting of the Krogan.

ME2 is not about uniting the team...in fact, it does a poor job of it because the crew doesn't socialize and their are only a few conflicts. The goal is to make everyone loyal and believe in the mission, which means solving personal issues. Its about preperation for a tough task. Thats the main theme. However, conflicts between created and creators...lets see Jack and Miranda are examples of created turning against creators, Zaeed's storyline of how his group turned on him and its important because they are significant foes in ME2, Jacobs father's fantasy world, the VI infected by the mech virus, the geth turning against Tali's father, the krogan subjects turning against Jedore, Project Overlord, the origins of the yahg Shadow Broker, and maybe even Samara and Morinth.

"
ME3 - It's a game about uniting the galaxy to stop the Reapers. Your attempts to unite the galaxy are literally graded with the EMS score. Secondary theme really?"

Yep because all results require sacrifice, the main theme of ME3.

'You ar enot getting it.'

I am but I think you're wrong.

'Yes, the Geth and EDI have a good reason...but they still rebelled. Many cases the created are your allies, and other cases the created are your foes. In many cases teh creators were just misguided, in other cases they a plain evil, like Henry Lawson.'

So you're just going to overlook all the other people that rebelled against Cerberus? It had nothing to do with synthetics. The fact that EDI was synthetic was incidental. You're just taking one demographic and say that that's the important one. This is what I mean about backpedalling. Sure some creator/conflict happened, but all you're doing is sifting through events where it wasn't the important aspect, and trying to say that it is.

'ME1 is NOT about galactic unity, it is about humanity trying to find its place and its role in the galaxy'.................. 'the krogan subjects turning against Jedore, Project Overlord, the origins of the yahg Shadow Broker, and maybe even Samara and Morinth.'

Again everything you're saying is just incidental. Creator/creation conflict is at best a recurring subplot motif. It doesn't tie together the story.and it certainly isn't the message that Mass Effect is trying to make. If Mass Effect was about the inevitability of creator/creation conflict then the Geth/Quarian storyline would be unresolvable, as would the situation with the Krogan and the Rachni. It's the exact opposite. These are things that can be resolved through attempts at understanding and working towards harmony. They're all painted as needless tragic events, not inevitable conflict. 

Read this quote:  "If you sometimes confuse plot with theme, keep the two elements separate by thinking of theme as what the story is about, and plot as the situation that brings it into focus. You might think of theme as the message of the story--the lesson to be learned, the question that is asked, or what it is the author is trying to tell us about life and the human condition. Plot is the action by which this truth will be demonstrated." 

The theme is unity and creator/creation conflict is merely plot that the player can resolve in order to show the importance of unity. The Geth, the Krogan, the Rachni, the Turians. They're all enemies to humanity at some point and in the end through successful diplomacy and choices they can all become allies. 

'Yep because all results require sacrifice, the main theme of ME3. '

Stop bringing sacrifice into it. I'm aware that this is an important aspect of ME3 and I have never argued otherwise.

Modifié par PoisonMushroom, 03 août 2012 - 12:35 .