266 réponses à ce sujet

[Uncle Jo]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Who in the Alliance is saying that it is "merely a power source"? Everybody else I talked to said something to the effect of it either being a super-weapon ("Capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction") or drew a blank.

Its in the files.....one message hypothesizes that its a power source.

Source?

I'd bet on headcanon.

[txgoldrush]

Uncle Jo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

better than the conventional victory pulled out of the ass, thats even more contrived.

Hell, if conventional victory was possible, it would have been done already.

While I would've prefered "conventional" (here meaning not using the Crucible) victory, I would be fine if they dropped more hints about the Crucible's ultimate effects, If they'r built it up better than just dropping the Catalyst, Control and Synthesis on us, it would work much better as a plot device. In its current incarnation however, I feel it wasn't developed enough to be the crux of the story.

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Nevermind the fear behind the thing and the effects of the Crucible might have is part of the plot. The unknown is a part of the situation.

Face it, the Crucible, Vigil, Vendetta, the Conduit all show that other cycles set up this cycle to succeed. Oh wait, nevermind that in ME1, Shepard got help from the Protheans as well.

He said hints. Hints are generally dropped before something happens not after.

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

[txgoldrush]

Uncle Jo wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Who in the Alliance is saying that it is "merely a power source"? Everybody else I talked to said something to the effect of it either being a super-weapon ("Capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction") or drew a blank.

Its in the files.....one message hypothesizes that its a power source.

Source?

I'd bet on headcanon.

One of the Shadow Broker files talks about synchronizing the energy from the crucible. Also, the Crucible war assets suggest power generation.

[D24O]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

No you don't NEED hints or forshadowing, if you want a contrived plot device, but if you want something to flow naturally out of the story, you have to set it up properly, usually via hints and forshadowing, something in which 3 failed with regards to the Crucible. 

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Who in the Alliance is saying that it is "merely a power source"? Everybody else I talked to said something to the effect of it either being a super-weapon ("Capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction") or drew a blank.

Its in the files.....one message hypothesizes that its a power source.

Source?

I'd bet on headcanon.

One of the Shadow Broker files talks about synchronizing the energy from the crucible. Also, the Crucible war assets suggest power generation.

Again... Source?

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Who in the Alliance is saying that it is "merely a power source"? Everybody else I talked to said something to the effect of it either being a super-weapon ("Capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction") or drew a blank.

Its in the files.....one message hypothesizes that its a power source.

Source?

I'd bet on headcanon.

One of the Shadow Broker files talks about synchronizing the energy from the crucible. Also, the Crucible war assets suggest power generation.

Again... Source?

Head Canon.

That's my guess.

[ld1449]

txgoldrush wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

better than the conventional victory pulled out of the ass, thats even more contrived.

Hell, if conventional victory was possible, it would have been done already.

While I would've prefered "conventional" (here meaning not using the Crucible) victory, I would be fine if they dropped more hints about the Crucible's ultimate effects, If they'r built it up better than just dropping the Catalyst, Control and Synthesis on us, it would work much better as a plot device. In its current incarnation however, I feel it wasn't developed enough to be the crux of the story.

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Nevermind the fear behind the thing and the effects of the Crucible might have is part of the plot. The unknown is a part of the situation.

Face it, the Crucible, Vigil, Vendetta, the Conduit all show that other cycles set up this cycle to succeed. Oh wait, nevermind that in ME1, Shepard got help from the Protheans as well.

He said hints. Hints are generally dropped before something happens not after.

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

If by foreshadowing you mean

Yo shep, I got our galaxy saving ticket on mars come see

Crucible presented

then sure. That's PLENTY of foreshadowing.<_<

If by foreshadowing you mean

"We're not sure what the hell it does."

*Does three completely different things, one of which made no sense in and of itself and none of which make sense considering its "just a powersource"*

Then sure. Foreshadowed.

Catalyst.

Yeah. Nowhere, except now in the EC that they stuck like half a line on the prothen VI thats like

"We have determined the Reapers have a Master."

"What?"

*Space Naruto cosplayer shows up*

Sure. That REALLY covers everything.<_<

[txgoldrush]

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

No you don't NEED hints or forshadowing, if you want a contrived plot device, but if you want something to flow naturally out of the story, you have to set it up properly, usually via hints and forshadowing, something in which 3 failed with regards to the Crucible. 

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

[MegaSovereign]

The Crucible is a power source. Nothing in the game contradicts this otherwise.

You can basically piece together what the Crucible actually does by reading the Crucible War Asset descriptions. I've made a fan-made Codex about it. The link is in my signature. The only description that seems like an asspull is the Synthesis one.  But that's understandable...considering it's synthesis.

:]

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 02 août 2012 - 04:49 .

[Uncle Jo]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however,
there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the
consquences of it being fired are discussed.

Sorry but you need them. Really. The crucible is a major element of the plot, but is being built in the background and we never know anything about what it really does until we meet the space troll which also pops out of nowhere and put also all what we know about the Reapers in question. Both have a crucial influence on the ending. Both deserved a little more foreshadowing. Or never exist to begin with.

One of the Shadow Broker files talks about synchronizing the energy from the crucible. Also, the Crucible war assets suggest power generation.

Source or it never happened.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 août 2012 - 04:48 .

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, the EC develops enough...and confirms what the alliance thinks it is.

Who in the Alliance is saying that it is "merely a power source"? Everybody else I talked to said something to the effect of it either being a super-weapon ("Capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction") or drew a blank.

Its in the files.....one message hypothesizes that its a power source.

Source?

I'd bet on headcanon.

One of the Shadow Broker files talks about synchronizing the energy from the crucible. Also, the Crucible war assets suggest power generation.

Again... Source?

Already listed them...sometimes you have to piece things together...I know...old school Bioware fans want everything explained and don't want to think about things. Nevermind Brynn Cole talking about solving the energy burst problem Dr. Lok was having.

[D24O]

txgoldrush wrote...

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

Yeah. ME's plot wasn't the strongest point, I won't argue with you there. But there's a balance between maintaining mystery, and throwing s*** from nowhere, one that BW IMO didn't get right. If they had, for example, told us that there was an interface in the Crucible, very similar to our AI terminals, there would be much less surprise at the Catalyst popping up, but still a mystery, we don't know anything about him aside from him being an AI, but we do know he was there all a long, and he doesn't just pop up. Simple things like that could've made the Crucible a much better plot device (although how the f*** you forshadow synthesis is beyond me, that can be a shamalayan twist I guess.)

[ld1449]

txgoldrush wrote...

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

No you don't NEED hints or forshadowing, if you want a contrived plot device, but if you want something to flow naturally out of the story, you have to set it up properly, usually via hints and forshadowing, something in which 3 failed with regards to the Crucible. 

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

What did it fail to foreshadow. Vigil?

You spend half the game in prothean ruins and discovering prothean tech left behind and hearing about how much the protheans did and the beacons that they left and the messages Shepard hears and the visions. Plenty of foreshadowing.

The ship as an actual Reaper, you're told repeatedly (depending on what missions you did before virmire) that the ship came from nowhere, no one knows how Saren aquired it, how it functions or even how in the world anyone could manufacture it.

You're told that the Reapers are a hyper advanced machine race.

Plenty of foreshadowing.

The genophage cure?

The genophage discussions through half of Wrex' dialogue.

Again, plenty of foreshadowing.

[MegaSovereign]

What exactly are we arguing about?

[txgoldrush]

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

Yeah. ME's plot wasn't the strongest point, I won't argue with you there. But there's a balance between maintaining mystery, and throwing s*** from nowhere, one that BW IMO didn't get right. If they had, for example, told us that there was an interface in the Crucible, very similar to our AI terminals, there would be much less surprise at the Catalyst popping up, but still a mystery, we don't know anything about him aside from him being an AI, but we do know he was there all a long, and he doesn't just pop up. Simple things like that could've made the Crucible a much better plot device (although how the f*** you forshadow synthesis is beyond me, that can be a shamalayan twist I guess.)

Read the war assets and read some of Liara's files. Sometimes you do not have to have everything explained to you.

[Uncle Jo]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Crucible is a power source. Nothing in the game contradicts this otherwise.

You can basically piece together what the Crucible actually does by reading the Crucible War Asset descriptions. I've made a fan-made Codex about it. The link is in my signature. The only description that seems like an asspull is the Synthesis one.  But that's understandable...considering it's synthesis.

:]

I began to read and will continue after I get some rest. Wanted to ask you though. The Crucible is meant to override the Catalyst's control over the Reapers, wouldn't it imply that the designers somehow knew about the brat? Why are the "commands" of the crucible for destroy and control on the citadel?

Sorry if my questions actually make no sense, I'm a little bit tired.

[ld1449]

MegaSovereign wrote...

What exactly are we arguing about?

Sovereign.

You should know by now any thread I'm drawn to just tends to veer off course until its smashing right into the ground.

Truth be told we're arguing about how stupid Mac Walter's plot devices are. Or at least that's how it started.

To recap, the pieces Mac wrote were

Kai Leng

Arrival

TIM (ME3)

Cerberus, ME3

The ending, of course,

The intro

the abhorrently stupid dialogue in the intro

and like one or two other things I'm sure I've missed.

[txgoldrush]

ld1449 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

No you don't NEED hints or forshadowing, if you want a contrived plot device, but if you want something to flow naturally out of the story, you have to set it up properly, usually via hints and forshadowing, something in which 3 failed with regards to the Crucible. 

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

What did it fail to foreshadow. Vigil?

You spend half the game in prothean ruins and discovering prothean tech left behind and hearing about how much the protheans did and the beacons that they left and the messages Shepard hears and the visions. Plenty of foreshadowing.

The ship as an actual Reaper, you're told repeatedly (depending on what missions you did before virmire) that the ship came from nowhere, no one knows how Saren aquired it, how it functions or even how in the world anyone could manufacture it.

You're told that the Reapers are a hyper advanced machine race.

Plenty of foreshadowing.

The genophage cure?

The genophage discussions through half of Wrex' dialogue.

Again, plenty of foreshadowing.

Vigil is an outright Deus Ex Machina.

The Cipher wasn't foreshadowed....neither was the Fifth Fleet coming to the rescue because Drew K had a massive plot hole in regards to Joker during the Ilos mission.

ME1 is far more contrived than ME3.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Already listed them...sometimes you have to piece things together...I know...old school Bioware fans want everything explained and don't want to think about things. Nevermind Brynn Cole talking about solving the energy burst problem Dr. Lok was having.

You didn't list anything. All you said was "Shadow Broker files". Go and find the file or post the name of the file and where to find it.

You ever hear of this cool new thing the kids call "burden of proof"?

[txgoldrush]

ld1449 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

What exactly are we arguing about?

Sovereign.

You should know by now any thread I'm drawn to just tends to veer off course until its smashing right into the ground.

Truth be told we're arguing about how stupid Mac Walter's plot devices are. Or at least that's how it started.

To recap, the pieces Mac wrote were

Kai Leng

Arrival

TIM (ME3)

Cerberus, ME3

The ending, of course,

The intro

the abhorrently stupid dialogue in the intro

and like one or two other things I'm sure I've missed.

What is Shepards magical strategy to use against the Reapers in the intro than? What advice could Shepard give to the allaince brass?

Nothing, because he is in the dark as everyone else, except for the fact that they are coming.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Already listed them...sometimes you have to piece things together...I know...old school Bioware fans want everything explained and don't want to think about things. Nevermind Brynn Cole talking about solving the energy burst problem Dr. Lok was having.

You didn't list anything. All you said was "Shadow Broker files". Go and find the file or post the name of the file and where to find it.

You ever hear of this cool new thing the kids call "burden of proof"?

The letter from Cole to Lok.

[TookYoCookies]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Already listed them...sometimes you have to piece things together...I know...old school Bioware fans want everything explained and don't want to think about things. Nevermind Brynn Cole talking about solving the energy burst problem Dr. Lok was having.

You didn't list anything. All you said was "Shadow Broker files". Go and find the file or post the name of the file and where to find it.

You ever hear of this cool new thing the kids call "burden of proof"?

Lol, goldrush is definition of a bio-drone. If Hudson/Walters sh*t on a plate that dude would pay $80 for a collectors edition napkin, scarf it down, then come on the BSN saying it was the best steak ever and how everyone else is a whiner.. Lol, dudes a joke.

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 02 août 2012 - 05:03 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Already listed them...sometimes you have to piece things together...I know...old school Bioware fans want everything explained and don't want to think about things. Nevermind Brynn Cole talking about solving the energy burst problem Dr. Lok was having.

You didn't list anything. All you said was "Shadow Broker files". Go and find the file or post the name of the file and where to find it.

You ever hear of this cool new thing the kids call "burden of proof"?

The letter from Cole to Lok.

Better, but you're still doing it wrong.

[MegaSovereign]

Uncle Jo wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Crucible is a power source. Nothing in the game contradicts this otherwise.

You can basically piece together what the Crucible actually does by reading the Crucible War Asset descriptions. I've made a fan-made Codex about it. The link is in my signature. The only description that seems like an asspull is the Synthesis one.  But that's understandable...considering it's synthesis.

:]

I began to read and will continue after I get some rest. Wanted to ask you though. The Crucible is meant to override the Catalyst's control over the Reapers, wouldn't it imply that the designers somehow knew about the brat? Why are the "commands" of the crucible for destroy and control on the citadel?

Sorry if my questions actually make no sense, I'm a little bit tired.

First off, thanks for reading.

While it's unknown if the designers of the Crucible knew about the Catalyst AI, the Citadel was included into the design since it's the command station of the Mass Relay network.

The Destroy/Control functionality being on the Citadel doesn't necessarily mean that the original designers knew about the AI construct who already had control over the Reapers.

EDIT:

Just my thoughts on this. If I had to guess I'd say the original intent of the Crucible was to only destroy the Reapers, but over time other (presumably indoctrinated) factions added in the Control functionality  into its design.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 02 août 2012 - 05:09 .

[ld1449]

txgoldrush wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

D24O wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, but you do not always need hints or foreshadowing.....however, there are some foreshaodwing on the Crucible, nevermind that the consquences of it being fired are discussed.

No you don't NEED hints or forshadowing, if you want a contrived plot device, but if you want something to flow naturally out of the story, you have to set it up properly, usually via hints and forshadowing, something in which 3 failed with regards to the Crucible. 

But when something is supposed to be mysterious, you don't need a lot of foreshadowing. There is no rule to this. Part of the story was the mystery behind the Crucible's effects.

Nevermind ME1 also failed in foreshadowing many of its revelations, and mE2 is in the same boat as well with the Human Reaper.

What did it fail to foreshadow. Vigil?

You spend half the game in prothean ruins and discovering prothean tech left behind and hearing about how much the protheans did and the beacons that they left and the messages Shepard hears and the visions. Plenty of foreshadowing.

The ship as an actual Reaper, you're told repeatedly (depending on what missions you did before virmire) that the ship came from nowhere, no one knows how Saren aquired it, how it functions or even how in the world anyone could manufacture it.

You're told that the Reapers are a hyper advanced machine race.

Plenty of foreshadowing.

The genophage cure?

The genophage discussions through half of Wrex' dialogue.

Again, plenty of foreshadowing.

Vigil is an outright Deus Ex Machina.

The Cipher wasn't foreshadowed....neither was the Fifth Fleet coming to the rescue because Drew K had a massive plot hole in regards to Joker during the Ilos mission.

ME1 is far more contrived than ME3.

Again. If you've read the books (like you claim) then you should recall that Drew states very clearly that the Citadel would be impossible to attack outright not only because the ward arms close, and because it has a constant fleet detail but also because the Citadel relay is linked to several other major relays, including arcturus relay, the biggest base the alliance has.

Considering Mass relays allow near instantaneous travel and coms it isnt impossible for joker to have hauled his ass back to arcturus and sent them a message like "Hey saddle up!"

And again, it wasn't, it was sufficiently foreshadowed and had something of a prescedent with both Prothean Beacons, messages left by the protheans warning us. Vigil was just a bit more straightforward than brain pictures.