851 réponses à ce sujet

[-Preie-]

Hello folks,

I don't know about the general attitude of the BSN forums about the vanguard
class, but I wish to discuss some issues that I see relevant. If you disagree,
wish to suggest improvements, or just talk about the class that is more than
welcome.

The feel I had about the Vanguard class was a combat specialist that utilizes
biotics to further his abilities. Correct? In fact, the Mass Effect 2 manual
states, " The Vanguard is a powerful biotic warrior able to jump across
the battlefield in an instant to charge the enemy and attack at close range,
combining the offensive power of an Adept and a Soldier.

Now we have the fundamentals, let’s break down into the gameplay and practicality.
In general, a close-quarter combatant would need an abundance of health/shield
(closely akin to the warrior) or be dodge and have special abilities to assist
in combat (the rogue). In the first Mass Effect, you could build a tank-like Vanguard
with biotics to crowd control if necessary. In Mass Effect 2, however, they moved
away with this with the quick favorite of Charge. Which turned out ok but the
pathing issues could lead to a quick death and no real way to play like a
"tank." So in Mass Effect 3, I did run into few instances of glitched
pathing, but Single Player went ok... with a few deaths.

However, now we arrive at multiplayer and some of the fundamental flaws with
this class. It has become apparent that we can easily kill trash mobs fast. The
issue is with the bosses. Not only do we risk insta- kills, we usually don't
have the damage output to contribute, unless we can do explosions (which are
fine, it gets teams to work together). But the issue of being instant killed
needs to be changed. We are supposed to get up close and personal, yet we are
punished for doing so. This is especially apparent in Platinum.

In addition, the weight penalty is unfriendly to us. If we actually try to be a
combative class, with a heavy power shotgun... we lose out in our
survivability. We are supposed to be soldier like… Not pistol wiping, adepts.

Another issue I have is that we, I suppose along with the fury, are the
only class that HAS TO !!!! HAS TO host in order to prevent
flying through the world, leaving our teammates to fend for themselves. Why
hasn't there been a patch to reset if you go too far out of bounds?
Furthermore, it kind of stinks we don't have the true ability to survive if lag
prohibits us. I mean we actually have to get in close (to nova right). Why
don't we have a little more survivability?

And finally, the Human Vanguard, or in general... shockwave needs to be buffed
or something rangy needs to be address for the vanguard class. The beam on the
N7 was a nice addition, but with objects like hack and upload. I feel dead out
of water with my dumb weak pistol to keep above 200% cool down reduction.

I truly love the vanguard class. I equivocate it to a Battle mage. I just wish
it was more... user-friendly?

Any input? Any at all?

Modifié par -Preie-, 02 août 2012 - 12:49 .

[Mozts]

You missed a bracket at the very beginning. I can't understand the code without it.

[-Preie-]

Is that a little better? I wrote it in Word for easier editing. Didn't know it would be a nightmare to cut and paste, Ha!

Modifié par -Preie-, 02 août 2012 - 12:50 .

[SierraGHOSTN7]

There are weapon mods. Use them.
I actually dislike people who spam powers. Smashguards mostly just spamsmash.
And with the cooldown you have the variety. Equip good weapon you feel good using. Even if it doesn't have the 200% cooldown, don't worry. You don't play Charge -> WAIT FOR THE COOLDOWN TO CLICK THE BUTTON TO USE THE POWER, but you can charge, shoot or roll and then use another power.
Weapons are for you to use them.
It is about variety. There are some enemies you can kill without problems, others are more problematic. But, if you just could kill everything the same way it would be boring.

[Invader Nemesis]

Vanguard could be a better class. There are only a few people who can really play this class with out spamming the crap out of their powers. I think I like the asari the most out of this class. I don't use charge and I put the GPS on her and use the Grenade V gear bonus.

[disappearingone11]

My main issue with vanguards is that some really need more health in order to be fully utilized on harder difficulties. The ones with low health/shields (I'm especially thinking of the two newest ones, Phoenix and Slayer) are often forced to either spam charge to keep their shields up, or stick to cover and effectively play as a soldier or adept. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the tank-like abilities of the Krogan Battlemaster who makes other vanguards seem weak by comparison, but I do find using most vanguards to be a tough balancing act.

[-Preie-]

That is a the problem. Bronze and Silver can be easy. But in the higher difficulties, it is impossible. And that is what this discussion is about. How to balance. Not make "The Next Over-powered."

The health is so low that you have to rely on the invincibility frames to survive.Or spamming other powers to play it safe. Charge is useless

[Destructo-Bot]

After a charge, vanguards need major damage mitigation of melee, stagger/interrupt immunity, and close range weapons fire and a very brief invulnerability to sync kills. If everything else stays the same, the class won't change much on lower levels (good vanguards are already nigh-immortal below gold) while making them practical for gold and platinum for regular players.

A large buff to FORCE (but not damage) for Charge and nova would also be welcome. And I do mean a LARGE buff to it.

Why won't this make them overpowered? As long as the buffs are balanced appropriately, the Vanguards should still favor light single weapons, making their damage output stay about the same. They will stay excellent mook slayers on lower levels, while having a role as aggro sponge on higher difficulties (rather than a god class damage dealer)

The Kroguard is pretty close to what the vanguard class should be. Vanguards DO NOT belong in cover. A vanguard in cover should be the equivalent of a low powered soldier.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[RinShepard]

If you're using half-blast as your Human Vanguard, you don't need 200% cooldown so you can carry a more powerful weapon for those hack objectives.

[Destructo-Bot]

My case is that vanguards should not be a high damage output class. They should be mook killers and aggro sponge/tanks extraordinaire.

[-Preie-]

Or have the specs to choose either tank or power and weapon soldier. And I do have dual nova blasts but the instant kills are still an issue and the need to get shields up faster outweighs the rewards of a heavier gun

[Jonathan Shepard]

Many of these suggestions would be welcome. As an avid Vanguard fan, even just a couple of these would be a godsend.

[disappearingone11]

The bottom line for me is that the class is suppossed to be a soldier/biotic hybrid, but most vanguards are heavily skewed to the biotic side, with the humans in particular being little more than adepts who can charge. I'm not saying it should be 50/50, but it shouldn't be 10/90 or 20/80, either. And if you're playing a character whose defining ability is charge, then you have to be able to absorb or better avoid some damage: 800-900 health and shields doesn't cut it on gold or platinum (not to mention that even getting your health that high comes at the cost of melee strength, which is counter intuitive for the class). It's also wrong that some vanguards have really powerful melee abilities but often have to rely on extended range/radius bonuses and the ability to hit through walls in order to live long enough to use them.

So, yeah, either more health/shields, or as Destructo-Bot says, more damage mitigation. The standard human vanguards effectively have mitigation with the half blast nova, and of course the Krogan's a tank (you could even argue that he's a bit OP), but as for the rest...yes, they can be used effectively, but not by playing like vanguards.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 02 août 2012 - 02:46 .

[Alcyone80]

I have been playing my asari vanguard solidly for the past week on silver/gold and she does pretty well. Stasis and headshot with a trusty Carnifex is your best friend but also Stasis/charge is pretty fun.

IMHO the vanguard's job is to clear out the trash mobs quickly so the rest of the team can deal to the bosses without being sniped at from all sides. I've found the best teams to roll with have been ones with a Demolisher and either an Infiltrator or a Destroyer with piranhas.

[Soggy-Snake-]

Vanguards are perfectly fine on Gold. Weapons like the Talon are great on the Asari. Its more of a problem on Platinum due to the fewer low level troops and lack of survivability.

[wyldByll10]

100% Damage invulnerability for (x) seconds after a biotic charge would help. Something to spec this in the evolution tree. This coupled with a boost to health and shields...say 900 or so would make them the tank they need to be. The KroGuard is a tank if spec'd right....to some degree. The human vanguard is weak and dead meat on higher levels of play.

[-Preie-]

That is the problem tho. If we are going to be restrained for a "trash" killer (which would be a terrible idea ) then Platinum is heading in the wrong direction with all the boss mobs. I assume that is where it will continue to go too.

Another issue we aren't mentioning, is how do you fellow Vanguards assist with hacks, uploads, and escorts? You cannot do much, right?

Plus we still have the issue that we are NOT fine if we don't host to lag-charge fail or fall out of the walls, ha :/

[Destructo-Bot]

If the vanguard became a true tank his/her role should become BAIT during hacks and such to keep all the enemies away from the objectives.

[samb]

I never understood why a vangaurd or soldier would have the same shields and health as an adept or engineer. That's like saying a wizard has the same toughness as a knight. BW dev team wins the special Olympics.

[Alcyone80]

I'm not sure what other Vanguards do during hacks, uploads and escorts but the asari with stasis and a carnifex is invaluable - esp against Cerberus with all those pesky Phantoms. Plus lift grenades are handy too. Novaguard is pretty limited although useful for the mobs that break into your circle - Geth hunters, I'm looking at you ;-)

I only play Vanguard when I host though - usually I just start a Gold match by myself and others come along eventually. No point in waiting around for the lobby to fill up.

[-Preie-]

samb wrote...

I never understood why a vangaurd or soldier would have the same shields and health as an adept or engineer. That's like saying a wizard has the same toughness as a knight. BW dev team wins the special Olympics.

It is strange. Maybe they need passive DR in certain classes? I don't know. It all just seems flawed

[RamsenC]

In ME2 there was a 2x damage bonus for being point blank. In ME3 that no longer exists and Vanguard got nothing to compensate. Charge should give a 40% damage bonus, like cloak, for 4 seconds after charging along with the DR boost. This would help boss killing, but will still be risky due to sync kills. Otherwise Vanguard is really no better than an Adept or Engineer with a shotgun, which is just wrong.

Right now Adrenaline Rush gives a 70% weapon damage bonus (or 50% with 40% DR), with a shield boost, and you activate it at no risk to yourself. Charge needs something to compete with that. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 août 2012 - 05:27 .

[-Preie-]

See.. this is my point. The Vanguard is missing a core survivability button. I am surprise my other fellow vanguards have stayed this quiet about it!

[Hackulator]

Novaguard is amazing and the only "buff" it needs is a bugfix so you can play without hosting.

[Achire]

Hackulator wrote...

Novaguard is amazing and the only "buff" it needs is a bugfix so you can play without hosting.

On Platinum? Please do write a guide.