851 réponses à ce sujet

[disappearingone11]

I don't play the Slayer like a vanguard of any kind because I can't, and that's the whole point. This is very different from saying that he's useless or ineffective, and has no bearing at all on him being different from other vanguards--he should be different, or else there would be no point in having multiple vanguards. I'm also not singling him out by any means, for he's actually more of a soldier/adept hybrid than most due to the phase disruptor. His problem is that he lacks the durability he needs to properly dish out and absorb melee and other close range damage, a problem he shares with the majority of the class.

[LULZferBAKON]

I've been thinking, shouldn't the Vanguards deal the kind of damage Infiltrators do? I mean, we'd actually have to put ourselves in harms way to do so.

[Pedro Costa]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

I've been thinking, shouldn't the Vanguards deal the kind of damage Infiltrators do? I mean, we'd actually have to put ourselves in harms way to do so.

And that is another reason why people don't like vanguards - we deal too little damage, we can't tolerate taking much damage and we expose ourselves to damage too much.

Not to say I want to compete with a GI in terms of damage output (and allow me to be frank right now: I ever so loathe the "but it's a glass cannon" argument most GI players use, especially when they bring extreme emphasis on the "glass" part. No, dear player, a glass cannon is _any_ vanguard that isn't a krogan. Well, the glass part.), far from it since in my eyes, the GI it is the most OP thing BioWare ever released on the multiplayer.

I'd, however, like for my high-risk class to actually have a high reward, and for it, as a biotic/weapon specialist hybrid to be more than a friggin' adept with biotic charge.
Like staggering a freaking phantom after a Biotic Charge. Or having the power that not only consumes all of your barriers at once but whose damage depends entirely on the percentage of barrier you still have to actually have a meaningful damage on my surrounding enemies. Or having decent weapon buffs, like infiltrators (tech/weapon specialists hybrid) and soldiers do.
Reapers forbid that the only class _forced_ to be in the enemies' face be allowed to actually deal with them quickly enough as to not get itself killed.

Even the N7 Shadow is a better Vanguard than most Vanguards, and that, by itself, should be enough to get the point across.

Ok, rant done. As usual, some hyperbole employed to better illustrate some points.

[godlike13]

Buff the 15% weapon damage after charge to 50%. Same with the power damage too, buff it to 50%.

I think that'd be a serious start. Making him a bit more of an actual high-risk high-reward class, rather then the high-risk marginal-reward class he is now.

Modifié par godlike13, 07 août 2012 - 01:11 .

[Achire]

I'm pretty sure the required force to stagger a Phantom on Platinum is 1200, seeing as you can't stagger them on a 1160 N Kroguard charge unless you buff it up with Barrier Power Synergy. Either this requirement needs to be brought down a lot, or Charge needs more Force.

The base force of Charge is 500 N. The base force of the Kroguard Charge is 750 N. I personally believe Phantoms should be staggerable even without Charge Rank 5 Power Synergy, since you really don't want that on a Drell Vanguard. The simplest solution is to buff the base Force to 650. This would result in a 1202.5 N Charge with Rank 2&4 of Charge and 35% from Alliance Training/Drell Assassin. Another way to achieve this would be to bump the base Force to only 600, and up the Rank 4 evolution to 45%.

The formula for damage reduction is presented in this thread. The current 50% Damage Reduction of Charge actually reduces damage taken by 37.5%. In a defensive Justicar Bubble, this jumps to 90% DR or effectual 67.5% DR. Buffing the DR to 60% would result in an effective 45% DR (or 75% in defensive bubble). It definitely should not be above 65%, as that results in an almost 80% effective DR while in a defensive bubble.

Here is my suggestion for buffing Charge. The current values are in presented in parenthesis. I'm not sure if this'd be enough, but I'm reluctant to go too far with either. All these buffs can be included in balance changes, as hoping for anything more is a fool's errand. These are similar to ones proposed on Balance ALL the Things by GP, tyhw and Shampoohorn. Feel free to poke holes in these ideas.

65% (50%) Damage Reduction for 4 seconds after charging. Effectual DR 48.75% (37.5%).
600 N (500 N) Base Force

Rank 4: Force and Damage bonus upped to 45% (30%). Area Charge has good utility and should stay the same.
Rank 5: Weapon Bonus buffed to 30% (15%) for 6s (3s).
Rank 5: Power Synergy buffed to 35% (25%)

Rank 6: Chance for no cooldown buffed to 40% (25%)

One downside is that it would be possible to stagger Gold Phantoms without speccing for Force&Damage. This would make Kroguard Charge less unique on this difficulty. I don't see it as a big loss, though. Only Kroguards could stagger multiple Phantoms on Platinum, even with these changes.

Modifié par Achire, 07 août 2012 - 01:25 .

[godlike13]

Like ur ideas, but how about,
Rank 5: Weapon Bonus buffed to 40% (15%) for 6s (3s).
Rank 5: Power Synergy buffed to 45% (25%)

[Achire]

That would be nice. My problem is that the power bonus should be a little bigger than the weapon bonus, but without upping the force to high enough to stagger Platinum Phantoms with Area Charge. I.e. Rank 5 Power Synergy needs to be smaller than Rank 4 Force&Damage bonus. Now another thing making this harder is that Smashguard, Asari Vanguard and Kai Leng get 45% Power Bonus from the class skill instead of 35% like Novaguard and Drellguard.

Staggering multiple Phantoms is something I think should stay a Kroguard specialty. One way to make this work would be to lower the base force to 550 N and make Rank 4 a massive 65% damage/force increase. It might be too much, though. It would probably be smarter to just lower the force requirement of staggering Phantoms on Platinum.

Modifié par Achire, 07 août 2012 - 01:42 .

[megawug]

Is there any gear that increases force? Or just biotic damage?

[godlike13]

Achire wrote...

That would be nice. My problem is that the power bonus should be a little bigger than the weapon bonus, but without upping the force to high enough to stagger Platinum Phantoms with Area Charge. I.e. Rank 5 Power Synergy needs to be smaller than Rank 4 Force&Damage bonus. Now another thing making this harder is that Smashguard, Asari Vanguard and Kai Leng get 45% Power Bonus from the class skill instead of 35% like Novaguard and Drellguard.

Staggering multiple Phantoms is something I think should stay a Kroguard specialty. One way to make this work would be to lower the base force to 550 N and make Rank 4 a massive 65% damage/force increase. It might be too much, though. It would probably be smarter to just lower the force requirement of staggering Phantoms on Platinum.

Well the Kroguard would still be special in that he can do it on his first Charge, where the other would have to stack Charges to be able to do it. Plus he's a lot more meatier then every other Vanguard.

I just think Vanguards should be high-risk high-reward, and a serious damage boost after charge would go a long way in making them that again.

Hell Infiltrator is a Tech/Combat hybrid class and they get a base 40% flat damage bonus after TC. So why not let Vanguards, the Biotic/Combat hybrid class, get something similar with Charge.

Modifié par godlike13, 07 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[Achire]

megawug wrote...

Is there any gear that increases force? Or just biotic damage?

All gear and consumables increase damage only, not force.

I like the suggested 40% weapon damage buff, I'm just not sure how to make it work with all this other stuff.

Modifié par Achire, 07 août 2012 - 02:04 .

[Elder_Jefferson]

What drives me batty (?) is that every enemy gun on the map targets me as soon as I charge - even during the charge, in many cases (I'm looking at you, atlas missiles, that-can-follow-a-vanguard- from-point-A-to-point-. So I blast in and take out a punk or two, but his 40 cronies gun me down. Great strategy, right there.

If anything, it sure enough teaches me to rely more on my teammates, and to pick and choose when to charge. Unfortunately, on Gold, I haven't found the right time to charge yet...

[Elotana]

Elder_Jefferson wrote...

If anything, it sure enough teaches me to rely more on my teammates, and to pick and choose when to charge. Unfortunately, on Gold, I haven't found the right time to charge yet...

There is no wrong time to charge on Gold. Seriously.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...
I like the suggested 40% weapon damage buff, I'm just not sure how to make it work with all this other stuff.

Why not make it so that Biotic Charge has a base 20% power/force/weapon damage boost, with ranks 5a and 5b only "specializing" the type of damage you want to do after a Biotic Charge?

[Achire]

Because that would require a patch

[Dendio1]

I gave up on vanguards until the glitch is fixed, and overall lag reduced

[Kyerea]

Achire wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Novaguard is amazing and the only "buff" it needs is a bugfix so you can play without hosting.

On Platinum? Please do write a guide.

You can do it, but it's typically a good idea to throw a Piranha /w Shredder and Smart Choke on your Novaguard or a high-level Wraith since you'll experience a decent amount of coverplay on Platinum. Novaguards on Platinum typically work best on the small and confined maps, which enables him/her to tie up sub-boss/infantry mobs with Nova roll-cancelling so Infiltrators and Soldiers can mop up bosses. Not the most effective class to be using on Plat, but it can be done and still score 2nd on Scoreboard.

[Elotana]

Using a choked Piranha X makes a class Platinum-viable? Someone stop the presses!

Modifié par Elotana, 07 août 2012 - 03:40 .

[Elotana]

Guys, Quarian Engineers are totally top-tier if you use a Black Widow X. Bow before my theorycrafting prowess.

[Kyerea]

Elotana wrote...

Using a choked Piranha X makes a class Platinum-viable? Someone stop the presses!

HIgh-level Piranhas and Wraiths relatively low weight enables a decent cooldown on BC and Nova. So yes, it helps this character in particular play better on Platinum. Which as I'm sure you might know, involves tons of bosses and sub-bosses. Smaller maps are of benefit to Novaguard on Platinum, larger maps might result in needless deaths.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

Because that would require a patch

Ah, there's that, then

[Achire]

Elotana wrote...

Guys, Quarian Engineers are totally top-tier if you use a Black Widow X. Bow before my theorycrafting prowess.

Oh man, DnVill so has you beat. Drellguards are god tier if you hug a right-hand corner with a Reegar! Vanguards are just fine on Platinum.

In all seriousness, it never was about whether or not Novaguards are Platinum viable or not. Obviously I know they are, and yes I do use a Piranha X with Scorpion X&ULM and Disruptor Ammo IV. The question is if all this risk and all this crap we have to deal with on Platinum are worth the trouble, and the answer is just plain no. High risk, low reward.

Modifié par Achire, 07 août 2012 - 04:02 .

[Zanru]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Elder_Jefferson wrote...

Just unIocked the slayer, and he's pretty much the antithesis of a vanguard. I only charge lonely enemies or enemies located outside of my immediate sphere of trouble.

Case in point. Granted, I haven't mastered the Slayer by any means (I've had him for about a week), but it's readily apparent that he's not well equipped to be a vanguard. He can be a makeshift soldier with lightweight weapons and his phase disruptor, and biotic slash is a nice AoE ability that can hit through walls. But how frustrating is it to have great melee abilities combined with the durability of wet tissue paper? And using BC for anything other than defense can be suicidal even on bronze.

I'm baffled, do you guys use his light melee and spec for melee damage at all?

[usctrojanbulldog]

9 out of 10 times I test phase disruptor for responsiveness before wave one, I cry. Ohhhhhhhh Lag, how you vex me...........

[Teratoid]

Zanru wrote...

I'm baffled, do you guys use his light melee and spec for melee damage at all?

When I play him I use his melee to avoid fire more than anything. And sometimes to stunlock that stupid Geth Hunter that catches me when I'm still cooling off from a recent Charge. 

No point in speccing for melee damage apart from that, IMO. He's pretty flimsy as it is. Plus, with Phase Disruptor, having higher barrier strength is nice.

[Kyerea]

Achire wrote...

Elotana wrote...

Guys, Quarian Engineers are totally top-tier if you use a Black Widow X. Bow before my theorycrafting prowess.

Oh man, DnVill so has you beat. Drellguards are god tier if you hug a right-hand corner with a Reegar! Vanguards are just fine on Platinum.

In all seriousness, it never was about whether or not Novaguards are Platinum viable or not. Obviously I know they are, and yes I do use a Piranha X with Scorpion X&ULM and Disruptor Ammo IV. The question is if all this risk and all this crap we have to deal with on Platinum are worth the trouble, and the answer is just plain no. High risk, low reward.

Agreed, I assumed you meant to imply that it wasn't a usable character in Platinum. It's usable, just not as viable as well... all the other classes in the game. I've used it a couple times in Platinum, but you are relagated to trash-mobs and sub-bosses. Which is really a waste of a character slot at that point.