851 réponses à ce sujet

[MP-Ryan]

Been going back to my Novaguard lately in Gold, and it got me thinking. While the Novaguard is gold viable (if specced with force&damage on charge and half-blast on Nova), it certainly doesn't keep up with infiltrators past about wave 6 when the more irritating enemies start showing up regularly. I've been leading the matches (as host, mind, you can't do this off-host, too much lag on nova and the glitch) by about 10-20K until Wave 6 but then I usually fall down the match scoreboard. Not that I care about score, but it's a decent indicator of how much damage you're putting out.

The main problems that were reducing my effectiveness were not so much the bosses, but trying to fight bosses while being staggered by cheap mooks (Geth stunlock), or magic homing boss attacks (Banshee warp, Brute long-distance swipe, Atlas rockets, Phantoms who forgot to stagger after charge despite others of their kind doing so, and Geth stunlock long-distance melee).

Fixing the glitch and lag issues would go a long way toward addressing this, but as many people have said all the enemies have gotten buffs, but the novaguards haven't. A period of stun/stagger invulnerability after charge, or just making the class entirely resistant to stagger (they are supposed to be heavyweight close-range combatants, after all) would go a long way toward improving the odds for Novaguards in general. Only for Gold/Platinum though - the Novaguard still shreds silver without issue.

The problem for our Nova-toting friends (and its my favorite class) is that they do not deal out near enough damage for their risky combat style. The options are either boost the damage, which could be tricky, or give them innate abilities that mitigate some of the risky - namely, remove enemy ability to lock you in place.

If someone has done a successful PuG run through Platinum with a Novaguard I'd love to see it - Gold with randoms is giving me more than enough trouble at present.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 07 août 2012 - 04:25 .

[Kyerea]

@MP Ryan We should game some time.

[MP-Ryan]

Kyerea wrote...

@MP Ryan We should game some time.

Origin ID is HLP_MP-Ryan.  Always looking for non-randoms to play with =)

[Lucrece]

The problem with Vanguards is that Charge is not friendly with any objectives except target kills. Escort, object recovery, there are many classes that perform well with these.

[Destructo-Bot]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Been going back to my Novaguard lately in Gold, and it got me thinking. While the Novaguard is gold viable (if specced with force&damage on charge and half-blast on Nova), it certainly doesn't keep up with infiltrators past about wave 6 when the more irritating enemies start showing up regularly. I've been leading the matches (as host, mind, you can't do this off-host, too much lag on nova and the glitch) by about 10-20K until Wave 6 but then I usually fall down the match scoreboard. Not that I care about score, but it's a decent indicator of how much damage you're putting out...

Got some numbers for us? I run a full-blast area-charge novaguard with either a Talon or Eviscerator ALWAYS with disruptor ammo to prime tech bursts. It easily keeps up with every infiltrator I've met on gold so far.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 07 août 2012 - 06:10 .

[Drakham]

i think the basic question maybe here is not if the vanguards are viable on platin, but if BW maybe intentionally upgrades the mobs in higher difficulty levels, so as to thin out the classes, that will be able to still work in these environments.

I cant see how a class which has to go toe to toe with the enemy can still work if the mechanism (charge with stagger) wont work anymore.

Another aspect which was not looked at very much is, if maybe the suppose the vanguard has to use certain buffs and gears to be viable in gold/platin again.

As someone wrote before....
The guards dont have to work all in the same way and maybe for some of the guards even the charge is more or less important. I still think BW has to either bring up a better conceptual idea for more demanding enemies (for example smarter tactics or better equipment like additional weaponry) instead of just buffing numbers.
Or they have to take another look on how some of the classes work.
Im still convinced that someone over there was kind of lazy in the design area or it just did not get so much attention as other aspects of the game.

I personally think this is all a design failure with how the difficulties work in the MP but the class which has to be the closest to the enemy notices this alot easier/faster, as we dont have cover.

I mean you could even make certain maps for certain difficulty levels and control the difficulty by the amount of cover you have (just as an example).

Modifié par Drakham, 07 août 2012 - 09:53 .

[Drakham]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

Been going back to my Novaguard lately in Gold, and it got me thinking. While the Novaguard is gold viable (if specced with force&damage on charge and half-blast on Nova), it certainly doesn't keep up with infiltrators past about wave 6 when the more irritating enemies start showing up regularly. I've been leading the matches (as host, mind, you can't do this off-host, too much lag on nova and the glitch) by about 10-20K until Wave 6 but then I usually fall down the match scoreboard. Not that I care about score, but it's a decent indicator of how much damage you're putting out...

Got some numbers for us? I run a full-blast area-charge novaguard with either a Talon or Eviscerator ALWAYS with disruptor ammo to prime tech bursts. It easily keeps up with every infiltrator I've met on gold so far.

pics removed

It can vary also with the roles you take on in the team with your vanguard. Some people concentrate on killing as much as fast as possible and others sometimes take a few seconds out time to move around and check the flanks which is time they are not shooting and wont show in the scores....

So you can only compare in my eyes at least if you have similar play patterns/styles.

[disappearingone11]

Buffing BC's force for stagger and giving x seconds of significant DR after charging seems like the best solution: it's the defining ability of all vanguards and should be useful to all varieties (not equally so per say, but viable to all even on platinum). It's a matter of making BC worthwhile and not suicidal to use, giving us a few seconds to do some close range damage before falling back, which is as it should be. It could also indirectly help the melee issue because a big boost to DR would allow non-Krogan vanguards to viably choose some melee buffs in the fitness tree, giving us a few seconds to use them without being slaughtered as well.

[Elder_Jefferson]

Zanru wrote...

disappearingone11 
Case in point. Granted, I haven't mastered the Slayer by any means (I've had him for about a week), but it's readily apparent that he's not well equipped to be a vanguard. He can be a makeshift soldier with lightweight weapons and his phase disruptor, and biotic slash is a nice AoE ability that can hit through walls. But how frustrating is it to have great melee abilities combined with the durability of wet tissue paper? And using BC for anything other than defense can be suicidal even on bronze.

I'm baffled, do you guys use his light melee and spec for melee damage at all?

Melee? Maybe I'm subpar or something, but trying to melee gold enemies tend to leave me dead. Phantoms and bosses welcome my charges and melee attempts.

[MP-Ryan]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Got some numbers for us? I run a full-blast area-charge novaguard with either a Talon or Eviscerator ALWAYS with disruptor ammo to prime tech bursts. It easily keeps up with every infiltrator I've met on gold so far.

It may in part depend on your weapon choices.  I'm stuck with a Carnifex VI on my gold-ready novaguard because my Talon is only level 1 and my Eviscerator is equally heavy.  And a Disciple is just useless at that difficulty.  I also have extremely bad luck at unlocking consumables and virtually never get disruptor ammo.

However, if you dive into the class builder website, you'll note the damage that charge/nova does compared to the damage output from tactical cloak... and probably cry =)

[Pedactor]

The Rank 4, 5, and 6 evolutions need to provide tactile gameplay choices of Biotic Charge much like Tactical Cloak does.

Also, this post needs to stay up.

[LULZferBAKON]

Pedactor wrote...

The Rank 4, 5, and 6 evolutions need to provide tactile gameplay choices of Biotic Charge much like Tactical Cloak does.

Also, this post needs to stay up.

So something like Survivability vs Damage?

[Pedactor]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Pedactor wrote...

The Rank 4, 5, and 6 evolutions need to provide tactile gameplay choices of Biotic Charge much like Tactical Cloak does.

Also, this post needs to stay up.

So something like Survivability vs Damage?

I don't know if that will work.  They all need survivability.  Maybe Priming vs. detonation.

Melee Synergy vs. weapon/power synergy?

I think the 100% barrier restore should really be baseline, the last evolution is such a no brainer.

[Pedro Costa]

Pedactor wrote...
I think the 100% barrier restore should really be baseline, the last evolution is such a no brainer.

agreed

[MP-Ryan]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Pedactor wrote...
I think the 100% barrier restore should really be baseline, the last evolution is such a no brainer.

agreed

Yeah, has anyone in the history of ME3 ever specced it otherwise?  If they have, I'd love to see the video

[LULZferBAKON]

MP-Ryan wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Pedactor wrote...
I think the 100% barrier restore should really be baseline, the last evolution is such a no brainer.

agreed

Yeah, has anyone in the history of ME3 ever specced it otherwise?  If they have, I'd love to see the video

If it was 100% restore vs a hefty shotgun bonus I think I'd stop to think about that for a moment.

[MP-Ryan]

LULZferBAKON wrote...
If it was 100% restore vs a hefty shotgun bonus I think I'd stop to think about that for a moment.

Only if the bonus allowed you to one-shot a Banshee or Phantom.  Otherwise, I'd be taking the barrier upgrade.

[Destructo-Bot]

A dead vanguard's DPS is zero.

[disappearingone11]

Elder_Jefferson wrote...

Zanru wrote...

disappearingone11 
Case in point. Granted, I haven't mastered the Slayer by any means (I've had him for about a week), but it's readily apparent that he's not well equipped to be a vanguard. He can be a makeshift soldier with lightweight weapons and his phase disruptor, and biotic slash is a nice AoE ability that can hit through walls. But how frustrating is it to have great melee abilities combined with the durability of wet tissue paper? And using BC for anything other than defense can be suicidal even on bronze.

I'm baffled, do you guys use his light melee and spec for melee damage at all?

Melee? Maybe I'm subpar or something, but trying to melee gold enemies tend to leave me dead. Phantoms and bosses welcome my charges and melee attempts.

A well-built vanguard should have strong melee abilities. That said, the Slayer is not a well-built vanguard. My point is just that he's capable of doing very good melee damage, but getting it comes at the cost of what little durability he has. So, yes, on gold it will tend to leave you dead. Hence the frustration.

[disappearingone11]

Full shield restoration is pretty much mandatory unless you abandon charge altogether. And speaking of the Slayer, that's arguably the best way to viably build him.

[Elder_Jefferson]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Full shield restoration is pretty much mandatory unless you abandon charge altogether. And speaking of the Slayer, that's arguably the best way to viably build him.

I never thought of that. A vanguard w/o a charge? I think I'll give it a shot on my slayer.

I don't use him for melee, either, but a piranha wielding, biotic spamming dude who plays chicken with the enemy

[disappearingone11]

Elder_Jefferson wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...

Full shield restoration is pretty much mandatory unless you abandon charge altogether. And speaking of the Slayer, that's arguably the best way to viably build him.

I never thought of that. A vanguard w/o a charge? I think I'll give it a shot on my slayer.

I don't use him for melee, either, but a piranha wielding, biotic spamming dude who plays chicken with the enemy

You can do it, and it makes him a somewhat decent soldier. Phase disruptor is quite handy (no pun intended) when maxed out, too.

Here's the catch: if you do it, you're no longer allowed to call him a vanguard.

[MP-Ryan]

Y'know, I'd love to see Biotic Charge in the list for this week's balance changes. Too bad the chances of that happening are about equal to the chances of a shotgun ever being Vanguard-friendly and still useful at low levels - in other words, slim to none.

[Achire]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Y'know, I'd love to see Biotic Charge in the list for this week's balance changes. Too bad the chances of that happening are about equal to the chances of a shotgun ever being Vanguard-friendly and still useful at low levels - in other words, slim to none.

I messaged Fagnan earlier about being unable to stagger Phantoms with Charge on Platinum. He said he'd bring that up with the gameplay team, so we might get that eventually at least.

[Quething]

MP-Ryan wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Pedactor wrote...
I think the 100% barrier restore should really be baseline, the last evolution is such a no brainer.

agreed

Yeah, has anyone in the history of ME3 ever specced it otherwise?  If they have, I'd love to see the video

You can get away with it on a kroguard. I've played around with it just for variety, and it's fun to drop a Carnage right out of a Charge. Trouble is, chance-to-proc abilties are fundamentally poor game design without some player control over the proc chance. If you give a player a really strong riposte skill with a 50% chance to proc on block, and the player is able to sacrifice other stats to increase both block chance and proc chance, that's good, because the player can build around making that riposte reliable. If you give a player a really strong cooldown elimination with a 25% chance to proc period ever that the player can't do anything to control, that's bad, because the player can't do anything to force that when she needs it and is thus going to ignore it in favor of abilities she can actually plan around.

Modifié par Quething, 08 août 2012 - 01:08 .