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[Achire]

Not all Smashguards spec 6 in Charge. Nobody is still going to take the other Rank 6 evolution, though.

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

Y'know, I'd love to see Biotic Charge in the list for this week's balance changes. Too bad the chances of that happening are about equal to the chances of a shotgun ever being Vanguard-friendly and still useful at low levels - in other words, slim to none.

I messaged Fagnan earlier about being unable to stagger Phantoms with Charge on Platinum. He said he'd bring that up with the gameplay team, so we might get that eventually at least.

Not just Platinum - I started another thread because it's not even reliable on Gold at present.  See here:  http://social.biowar.../index/13566205

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 08 août 2012 - 04:42 .

[Achire]

It has never been 100% reliable. Some animations such as the flip are high priority and will not be interrupted by stagger. Sometimes melee capable enemies melee instantly after a charge that should have staggered them. This is mostly seen on Guardians and Phantoms.

You can't stay close to a Phantom and expect to live even if they are staggered. If they have a melee attack 'saved up', they can instantly grab you when the stagger animation ends. Just roll away after the charge, and use Nova and shoot while keeping a safe distance. Note that after the stagger ends they might aggressively run towards you and again instantly sync kill if they used a melee attack before. You need to keep the Phantom in range of your Nova while maximizing the distance to avoid the sync kill.

That's how I deal with Phantoms on Gold with a Force&Damage specced charge in any case. There are other ways (Scorpion!), and I'm sure people have developed other/better strategies. Feel free to share. However what you absolutely must not do is charge a Phantom and then use Nova in her face like an idiot, and expect not to get grabbed. The Nova animation lasts longer than the stagger, and you are incredibly vulnerable to sync kills while using it.

I have been told that the cart-wheel counts as a melee attack for the sync kill, but I have never bothered to confirm this myself.

Modifié par Achire, 08 août 2012 - 05:11 .

[RamsenC]

I'm finally playing single player and now I understand why Vanguard is underpowered. It completely wrecks insanity with no challenge whatsoever and all weapon/class balance comes from SP. Even if you stick with charge + shotgun only it's a cakewalk compared to ME2. Kinda disappointing, but still fun.

Modifié par RamsenC, 08 août 2012 - 05:20 .

[Methew]

Elotana wrote...

Methew wrote...

Thoughts on Drellguard using Acolyte?

Strips shields to allow you to Pull freely with a Biotic Charge follow up. Just pulled 81k on Silver. 50 Biotic Kills, 75 Kills, 25 Pistol Kills.

It's utterly worthless against armor though.

Tried it, went back to simply charging and meleeing. It's faster and the weapon switching / charge mechanic is just too frustrating.

Really?

Meleeing?

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

It has never been 100% reliable. Some animations such as the flip are high priority and will not be interrupted by stagger. Sometimes melee capable enemies melee instantly after a charge that should have staggered them. This is mostly seen on Guardians and Phantoms.

You can't stay close to a Phantom and expect to live even if they are staggered. If they have a melee attack 'saved up', they can instantly grab you when the stagger animation ends. Just roll away after the charge, and use Nova and shoot while keeping a safe distance. Note that after the stagger ends they might aggressively run towards you and again instantly sync kill if they used a melee attack before. You need to keep the Phantom in range of your Nova while maximizing the distance to avoid the sync kill.

That's how I deal with Phantoms on Gold with a Force&Damage specced charge in any case. There are other ways (Scorpion!), and I'm sure people have developed other/better strategies. Feel free to share. However what you absolutely must not do is charge a Phantom and then use Nova in her face like an idiot, and expect not to get grabbed. The Nova animation lasts longer than the stagger, and you are incredibly vulnerable to sync kills while using it.

I have been told that the cart-wheel counts as a melee attack for the sync kill, but I have never bothered to confirm this myself.

On PC, at least, you can charge, side roll once, jerk the camera 90 degrees, and roll again, bringing you up beside her but out of immediate melee range, fire nova, and charge.

However, if she fails to stagger after charge 1, there is a good chance she's going to walk up to you frantically hitting the charge button again and stick a sword through you, which is what's been happening to me lately.

But yeah, as a rule firing Nova immediately in front of a phantom is not smart - but that's not what's getting me killed, it's her sync-kill BS after she fails to stagger.

Once again - charge needs some balance tweaking to remove some of the risk associated with the almost non-existent reward it provides on Gold/Platinum.  Invulnerability to sync kills or guaranteed staggers against all enemies would be a good start that would help it keep up at those difficulties.

[MAGlKARP]

I really like the idea (I forget who posted it first, sorry) of giving the old Mass Effect 2 damage multiplier for when you shoot enemies point blank to vanguards.

It screams synergy with charge and would really give vanguards a proper feeling of a biotic/soldier combo.

[Pedactor]

I don't know, I don't think there's really a means to make Biotic Charge compelling like Tactical Cloak.

Maybe Biotic Charge shouldn't be given out to the Drellguard, Asari, Phoenix, and Slayer. Maybe they should get a gap-closer, but maybe something different.

I have spent time trying to come up with ideas, but I don't know how long coding new stuff in would take.

What if the Drellguard got a Biotic Hurricane Kick? Innate AoE that primes everything within X for a BE? Hits multiple times on a single target?

What if the Asari Vanguard had a Slam element to her charge that stripped shields and barriers and had the HIGHEST force value that also applied Warp to all affected targets?

What if the Cerberus Smashguard's Lash WAS his charge? I.E.: You don't move, you suck the target to you at incredible force and then punch it in the face, biotically charging it and causing it to slam back down on a area of 5 M around a target?

And the Slayer, what if he got a clone of Shadow Strike but biotic based that primed targets and gave him Reave protection and Biotic Slash had a 75% DR on its animation for a detonator?

I can go on. I just think Biotic Charge, aside from the Barrier restoration, is effectively a crappier Throw since it puts you in Sync range. I mean it almost seems like they just gave up on this.

[Pedactor]

Up.

[grayrest]

Achire wrote...

Not all Smashguards spec 6 in Charge. Nobody is still going to take the other Rank 6 evolution, though.

I take the power cooldown on the Krogan since 1k shields at 55% DR is usually enough (and ops takes care when it isn't) and it's nice to be able to charge more often. I'd take it on the Asari as well since she doesn't need to charge to Kishock snipe but I spec 4/6/6/6/4 instead.

The cooldown option would be considerably more compelling if it was a higher chance. Getting three charges in a row is a lot of fun and that'd happen twice as often at 33% as it does at the current 25%.

[LULZferBAKON]

Pedactor wrote...

I don't know, I don't think there's really a means to make Biotic Charge compelling like Tactical Cloak.

Maybe Biotic Charge shouldn't be given out to the Drellguard, Asari, Phoenix, and Slayer. Maybe they should get a gap-closer, but maybe something different.

I have spent time trying to come up with ideas, but I don't know how long coding new stuff in would take.

What if the Drellguard got a Biotic Hurricane Kick? Innate AoE that primes everything within X for a BE? Hits multiple times on a single target?

What if the Asari Vanguard had a Slam element to her charge that stripped shields and barriers and had the HIGHEST force value that also applied Warp to all affected targets?

What if the Cerberus Smashguard's Lash WAS his charge? I.E.: You don't move, you suck the target to you at incredible force and then punch it in the face, biotically charging it and causing it to slam back down on a area of 5 M around a target?

And the Slayer, what if he got a clone of Shadow Strike but biotic based that primed targets and gave him Reave protection and Biotic Slash had a 75% DR on its animation for a detonator?

I can go on. I just think Biotic Charge, aside from the Barrier restoration, is effectively a crappier Throw since it puts you in Sync range. I mean it almost seems like they just gave up on this.

I love those Charge ideas.

[Elotana]

Methew wrote...

Elotana wrote...

Methew wrote...

Thoughts on Drellguard using Acolyte?

Strips shields to allow you to Pull freely with a Biotic Charge follow up. Just pulled 81k on Silver. 50 Biotic Kills, 75 Kills, 25 Pistol Kills.

It's utterly worthless against armor though.

Tried it, went back to simply charging and meleeing. It's faster and the weapon switching / charge mechanic is just too frustrating.

Really?

Meleeing?

Anything with shields and no armor can be taken down quicker and more reliably with Charge->Heavy Melee than with Acolyte->Pull->Charge. Heavy melee animation gives 50% DR which stacks with the post-Charge DR to make it one of the safest tactics for Drellguards, while Acolyte charge requires you to be out of cover for precious seconds and have rock-steady aim, and also carry two weapons and switch much more frequently.

You also get a bigger hot streak bonus for Heavy Melee on top of the Charge bonus, since the Charge bonus doesn't require Charge to be the killing blow
Fitness 5: 75% bonus from 500 base damage, lasts 20 seconds
Charge 5: 25% bonus from 250 base damage, lasts 15 seconds

Modifié par Elotana, 08 août 2012 - 04:44 .

[Jackville Assington]

Vanguards are the one class that seems the most selfish. It seems like a solo, 1 man team character,

[Arppis]

Jackville Assington wrote...

Vanguards are the one class that seems the most selfish. It seems like a solo, 1 man team character,

Infiltrators can be the same too. Both classes have abilities that let them play "solo" and them both can be used to revive people fast.

[Elotana]

Jackville Assington wrote...

Vanguards are the one class that seems the most selfish. It seems like a solo, 1 man team character,

I really don't see how you can call any class "selfish" in a horde game.

[Jackville Assington]

Arppis wrote...

Jackville Assington wrote...

Vanguards are the one class that seems the most selfish. It seems like a solo, 1 man team character,

Infiltrators can be the same too. Both classes have abilities that let them play "solo" and them both can be used to revive people fast.

You have a point there, but Infiltrators I find have some team support moves. Whether it be laying down mimes, or going cloak to help with hacking missions. Vanguards I find have the least team support.
I'm not complaining about Vanguards being like this, hell there should always be a more solo orientend character aviailable as an option.

[Pedactor]

Arppis wrote...

Jackville Assington wrote...

Vanguards are the one class that seems the most selfish. It seems like a solo, 1 man team character,

Infiltrators can be the same too. Both classes have abilities that let them play "solo" and them both can be used to revive people fast.

Infiltrators specced for duration are the definition of team player.  They can be invaluable with across-the-map hack/drone/pizza missions and can also draw fire to allow easier objectives since they can reposition and flank so easily.

This is exactly what I mean:

Compelling choices in Rank 4 and 6 of Cloak that help define your playstyle vs. what in Biotic Charge?

[Methew]

Elotana wrote...
Charge 5: 25% bonus from 250 base damage, lasts 15 seconds

?

Is Drell heavy melee technically considered a power because they biotically charge it?

[Elotana]

Methew wrote...

Elotana wrote...
Charge 5: 25% bonus from 250 base damage, lasts 15 seconds

?

Is Drell heavy melee technically considered a power because they biotically charge it?

No the bonus applies to Charge. I'm saying you can take advantage of both Charge and Melee bonuses with this tactic. With both bonuses active I can usually take out Centurions etc with one charge+punch.

[Pedro Costa]

Pedactor wrote...
Compelling choices in Rank 4 and 6 of Cloak that help define your playstyle vs. what in Biotic Charge?

Crappy single target boost vs area (I still go with damage boost, tho ), and a no-brainer in the guise of 25% chance of no-cooldown vs reliably get your meager protection back (krogans excluded).
...Yeah, it is lacking.

Adding to past suggestions to buff impact force so it reliably staggers any target, if rank 4a Charge made charge into a single-target primer and 4b was given a biotic detonation boost, you'd chose to either stay the team's detonator or a self-reliant biotic bomb (per example, charge -> smash, or charge -> Nova) and 6a would give you a 33% chance of double damage/force and no cooldown with 6b restoring 100% barrier and increasing damage reduction after every charge, you'd also be able to chose between improved survivability or insane damage output.

[Pedactor]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Pedactor wrote...
Compelling choices in Rank 4 and 6 of Cloak that help define your playstyle vs. what in Biotic Charge?

Crappy single target boost vs area (I still go with damage boost, tho ), and a no-brainer in the guise of 25% chance of no-cooldown vs reliably get your meager protection back (krogans excluded).
...Yeah, it is lacking.

Adding to past suggestions to buff impact force so it reliably staggers any target, if rank 4a Charge made charge into a single-target primer and 4b was given a biotic detonation boost, you'd chose to either stay the team's detonator or a self-reliant biotic bomb (per example, charge -> smash, or charge -> Nova) and 6a would give you a 33% chance of double damage/force and no cooldown with 6b restoring 100% barrier and increasing damage reduction after every charge, you'd also be able to chose between improved survivability or insane damage output.

Very cool idea.

Still don't think BC is very compelling and not really supportive of it staying slathered like TC on every Vanguard, but this change, in and of itself, would do quite a bit to address alot of its crappiness.

[D Amiri]

Elotana wrote...

Methew wrote...

Elotana wrote...

Methew wrote...

Thoughts on Drellguard using Acolyte?

Strips shields to allow you to Pull freely with a Biotic Charge follow up. Just pulled 81k on Silver. 50 Biotic Kills, 75 Kills, 25 Pistol Kills.

It's utterly worthless against armor though.

Tried it, went back to simply charging and meleeing. It's faster and the weapon switching / charge mechanic is just too frustrating.

Really?

Meleeing?

Anything with shields and no armor can be taken down quicker and more reliably with Charge->Heavy Melee than with Acolyte->Pull->Charge. Heavy melee animation gives 50% DR which stacks with the post-Charge DR to make it one of the safest tactics for Drellguards, while Acolyte charge requires you to be out of cover for precious seconds and have rock-steady aim, and also carry two weapons and switch much more frequently.

You also get a bigger hot streak bonus for Heavy Melee on top of the Charge bonus, since the Charge bonus doesn't require Charge to be the killing blow
Fitness 5: 75% bonus from 500 base damage, lasts 20 seconds
Charge 5: 25% bonus from 250 base damage, lasts 15 seconds

With the Pull buffs, it's actually faster, easier, and safer to just spam Acolyte,Pull, Acolyte, Pull, Pull, Acolyte into groups of mobs than to Charge, detonate, or switch weapons.  The only enemy I always charge after a Pull are Phantoms because their jet boots allow them to mitagate the Pull tick damage and their arial clocking makes shotting them while Pulled difficult.  All other mobs I just shot or Pull(.92 sec CD) them again.  With the Ack you only need to change weapons against Bosses.  Even against Brutes, Ravagers, and Pyros Ack + nades works just fine, no need to switch.

If you are Charging to kill enemies with a Drellguard, then a Reegar or Pirahna will kill much faster and safer than trying to use a melee build.  Going melee is not worth the loss of health/shield and movement bonus.  It's not the small shield gate that kills melee builds, it's running around with one bar of health with a small shield gate that does.  By not getting your full 900 health you are increasing the amount of time you have one red bar during the match.

As far as the Ack and cover.  Why are you in cover?  Most Drell players I see are strafing in and out of soft cover and using their mobility to get out of line of sight.  This gives plenty of time to charge your Acolyte, Arc Pistol, GPS, or Graal.

[Pedactor]

This shall not drop off page 1.

[grayrest]

Elotana wrote...

No the bonus applies to Charge. I'm saying you can take advantage of both Charge and Melee bonuses with this tactic. With both bonuses active I can usually take out Centurions etc with one charge+punch.

Not quite sure how this works. I believe Gold Centurions have 1687.5 shields and 1860 health, neither of which is mitigated and melee isn't gated so we can treat it as a single 3547.5 health pool assuming we punch with shields left.

Charge is:

250 Base * 1 +
.2 Charge 3
.3 Charge 4 (non-area)
.2 power synergy
.35 Drell Assassin (Force+Damage at 4 and 5)
.4 Power Amp IV
= 612.5

Melee is:
600 base * 1 +
.35 Fitness 1&3
.3 Fitness 4
.75 Martial Artist
.3 Melee Synergy
.25 Melee Weapon Mod
.15 Hydraulic Joints
1 Strength Enhancer III
= 2460

612.5 + 2460 = 3072.5

Am I missing something? I do a martial artist+melee synergy+weapon synergy build and have to use a wraith shot between the charge and melee to kill things.

Modifié par grayrest, 08 août 2012 - 07:17 .

[Achire]

Jackville Assington wrote...


You have a point there, but Infiltrators I find have some team support moves. Whether it be laying down mimes, or going cloak to help with hacking missions. Vanguards I find have the least team support.

You must REALLY hate mimes.

@MP-Ryan, I suggest rolling backwards to left or right. The animation is the same speed as a side roll, but it obviously takes you much further away. You can Nova immediately, and if you have around +200% CD you can Charge quite fast after the Nova.