851 réponses à ce sujet

[Hackulator]

Novaguard is my favorite class, but Nova needs a bit of a damage buff.

[Achire]

I agree. Here are some quick calculations by Cyonan. These all assume Power Amplifier III and Adaptive War Amp V, which I'd never use on a Novaguard on Platinum instead of shield gear.

Cyonan wrote...

Assuming that the first charge is normal cooldown, and then every one after that has an additional 25% recharge speed for a Full Nova you get:

3.08 - First Charge - 2400 Damage or 779.22 DPS
2.86 - Second Charge - 2487.5 Damage or 869.76 DPS
2.67 - Third Charge - 2487.5 Damage or 931.65 DPS
2.5 - Fourth Charge - 2487.5 Damage or 995 DPS
2.35 - Every other Charge after that

It takes you 11.11 seconds to ramp up your DPS to max. During this time you do 9862.5 damage or 877.71 DPS.

After you have ramped up DPS, you'll do 1 Charge and 1 Nova every 2.35 seconds. This results in 1058.51 DPS, and about 0.5 seconds of vulnerability every charge cycle.

Half-Blast has no ramp up time. Using my number of 1 Charge, 2 Novas(One at 50% strength) per 3.5 seconds:

562.5 + (822.5 * 2) + ((822.5*0.5)*2) = 865.71 DPS

The Invulnerability frames are timed such that you have little, if any, time of being vulnerable to damage.

Due to the ramp up time of Full Nova, the overall damage done will not surpass Half-Blast until about 9.5 seconds have passed.

Modifié par Achire, 08 août 2012 - 06:58 .

[Elotana]

grayrest wrote...

Elotana wrote...

No the bonus applies to Charge. I'm saying you can take advantage of both Charge and Melee bonuses with this tactic. With both bonuses active I can usually take out Centurions etc with one charge+punch.

Not quite sure how this works. I believe Gold Centurions have 1687.5 shields and 1860 health, neither of which is mitigated and melee isn't gated so we can treat it as a single 3547.5 health pool assuming we punch with shields left.

Charge is:

250 Base * 1 +
.2 Charge 3
.3 Charge 4 (non-area)
.2 power synergy
.35 Drell Assassin (Force+Damage at 4 and 5)
.4 Power Amp IV
= 612.5

Melee is:
600 base * 1 +
.35 Fitness 1&3
.3 Fitness 4
.75 Martial Artist
.3 Melee Synergy
.25 Melee Weapon Mod
.15 Hydraulic Joints
1 Strength Enhancer III
= 2460

612.5 + 2460 = 3072.5

Am I missing something? I do a martial artist+melee synergy+weapon synergy build and have to use a wraith shot between the charge and melee to kill things.

The guy I was responding to was talking about silver, you're right on gold. (Although I usually just take a second punch or intersperse a quick Hurricane burst on gold since the DR is even more vital there.)

Modifié par Elotana, 08 août 2012 - 07:20 .

[Achire]

I figured I might as well calculate the same numbers without Amps.

3.08 - First Charge - 1997.5 (387.5 + 805*2) Damage or 648.5 DPS
2.86 - Second Charge - 2060 (450 + 805*2) Damage or 720.3 DPS
2.67 - Third Charge - 2060 (450 + 805*2) Damage or 771.5 DPS
2.5 - Fourth Charge 2060 (450 + 805*2) Damage or 824.0 DPS
2.35 - Every Charge after 2060 (450 + 805*2) Damage or 876.6 DPS

DPS during ramp-up is 736.0.

For half-blast:
450 + 665*2 + 665*0.5*2 = 2245 Damage in 3.5s or 641.4 DPS

The modifier for half-blast is an additional -40% penalty which works the same way as damage bonuses from training, mods or gear. This is why the DPS difference is small with full gear, but widens considerably when using other gear or mods than power damage.

A Prime on Platinum has 15356 Shields and 21937 Armor. Using the DPS numbers from above and ignoring the shield gate or individual abilities, it would take around 42.5 seconds for Full Nova or a massive 58 seconds for Half-Blast just to take a Prime down. It's not quite this bad since you can shoot and use tech bursts, but damn is it unimpressive in any case.

[Achire]

- (Platinum) The force threshold to cause Phantoms to stagger lowered to Gold levels

****. YES. Thank you Fagnan!

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

- (Platinum) The force threshold to cause Phantoms to stagger lowered to Gold levels

****. YES. Thank you Fagnan!

Am I the only one thinking BioWare doesn't want to touch Vanguards with a ten foot pole?
It's like they don't... have much love for the class, tbh.

Preferring to nerf the platinum phantom instead of boosting Charge? Seems like a cop-out, imo.

That is not to say I'm not pleased, quite the opposite, actually.

[LULZferBAKON]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Achire wrote...

- (Platinum) The force threshold to cause Phantoms to stagger lowered to Gold levels

****. YES. Thank you Fagnan!

Am I the only one thinking BioWare doesn't want to touch Vanguards with a ten foot pole?
It's like they don't... have much love for the class, tbh.

Preferring to nerf the platinum phantom instead of boosting Charge? Seems like a cop-out, imo.

That is not to say I'm not pleased, quite the opposite, actually.

I feel like Vanguards have been completely shafted compared to what they were back in ME1.

[-Preie-]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Achire wrote...

- (Platinum) The force threshold to cause Phantoms to stagger lowered to Gold levels

****. YES. Thank you Fagnan!

Am I the only one thinking BioWare doesn't want to touch Vanguards with a ten foot pole?
It's like they don't... have much love for the class, tbh.

Preferring to nerf the platinum phantom instead of boosting Charge? Seems like a cop-out, imo.

That is not to say I'm not pleased, quite the opposite, actually.

I feel like Vanguards have been completely shafted compared to what they were back in ME1.

I agree. I assume they would like to stay with charge, while is both cool and unique, it is too full of glitches. It is also hard to balance, probably hidden by complicated coding.

And I said this in another post, but they must have some numbers or something kind of method we are not seeing to deem the Vanguard as "fine." I think they took a step wrong in ME2 by making the vanguard a berserk type of warrior, which I suppose is fine to some. But I lost all feelings for the class with no tanking and nova spamming Vanguard.

Anyways, I am still trying to work on a comrehensive list of changes but so many were suggested. It is taking awhile to both accuratly condense posts and try to keep bias out

[-Preie-]

Whoa whoa... double posting is cool

Modifié par -Preie-, 09 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[Achire]

It's possible that there were other classes with the same problem when it comes to Phantoms. Much easier to just change the threshold than to add force to multiple abilities.

[-Preie-]

So force and damage is a no brainier now, other than radius right?

[Achire]

Frankly I'm not sure if it actually works. Going to do some more testing.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

It's possible that there were other classes with the same problem when it comes to Phantoms. Much easier to just change the threshold than to add force to multiple abilities.

Still, doesn't seem like they are bothered by the class becoming more and more underpowered as new DLC, characters and balance changes pile on and on. The slayer, compared to the phantom, implies as much.
Not even the sword tree was given to a character who carries a bleepin' sword.

I'd honestly like to know why BioWare feels their vanguard roster is fine.

[-Preie-]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

I'd honestly like to know why BioWare feels their vanguard roster is fine.

If you find out... let me know! But it is appearent within this very forum topic that others agree the Vanguard is up to snuff too. Why, I will never know...

[Achire]

Well, I did a couple of test runs on Vancouver/Cerb/Platinum and I couldn't get a SINGLE stagger in. Every time you use a power such as Charge on Platinum, Phantoms go into the "talk to the hand" pose. You can't stagger while they do that. So basically this didn't help anything at all.

Modifié par Achire, 09 août 2012 - 01:15 .

[-Preie-]

Ha ha.. I did a test on gold to see if I could pinpoint a number too. I ended up getting sync-killed. And then the party laughed and quit

[Achire]

I did some more testing. The Phantom stagger force threshold change did not go live. I can't stagger them on my Kroguard unless I have Barrier on (+30% Force). On the Novaguard, I can't stagger at all. Exactly like it was before.

[MP-Ryan]

I finally unlocked a Slayer, and whilst I'm sure I am NOT playing this character correctly yet, I was getting sliced-and-diced by Phantoms like you would not believe. Does Phase Disruptor not bother them at all? Yeesh.  Oh yeah, and charge was only staggering them periodically.  I especially loved how they can melee you mid-dodge and stun you... that's awesome.  If this is how the slayer normally performs, I'm sticking with Novaguard and Kroguard.

Gold difficulty.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 09 août 2012 - 02:44 .

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

I did some more testing. The Phantom stagger force threshold change did not go live. I can't stagger them on my Kroguard unless I have Barrier on (+30% Force). On the Novaguard, I can't stagger at all. Exactly like it was before.

That is just... wonderful<_<

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 09 août 2012 - 02:50 .

[RinShepard]

Achire wrote...

Well, I did a couple of test runs on Vancouver/Cerb/Platinum and I couldn't get a SINGLE
stagger in. Every time you use a power such as Charge on Platinum,
Phantoms go into the "talk to the hand" pose. You can't stagger while
they do that. So basically this didn't help anything at all.

Achire wrote...

I did some more testing. The Phantom stagger force threshold change did not go live. I can't stagger them on my Kroguard unless I have Barrier on (+30% Force). On the Novaguard, I can't stagger at all. Exactly like it was before.

I did those exact same tests when I saw the balance changes and got the exact same results. Was confusing me so I went here to see if anyone else noticed it.

[Achire]

Not really sure what weapons to use now. The Piranha nerf did nothing, and will result in a very big nerf later on. See Krysae nerf on June 12, TC nerf on June 26 since that didn't work, and finally July 24 coup de grace.

A Scorpion is pretty much required on Platinum. With ULM it doesn't weight too much (at X anyway), so it can be used a sidearm. It does, of course, rule out using a Talon at the same time. There don't really seem to be too many good shotguns with a low weight. It's pretty much the Wraith or nothing, and it sucks compared to the Talon. Not really much point in using the Piranha and getting reliant on a crutch that will be taken away.

[megawug]

The change doesn't seem to work... charged a moving phantom and nothing happened, other than my AV getting sliced and diced.

[Quething]

I've asked around but never heard a conclusive answer to this: what's the relationship between damage and force? There must be one, since enough damage can cause staggers and enough force can cause damage (even before impact with a surface) but without direct math, it's hard to make coherent suggestions. If they buffed the everloving crap out of Charge and Nova force so that even drellguards can take Area and still stagger phantoms/atlases/primes with enough bonuses from passives & gear, would that meaningfully improve our ability to kill too? Conversely, if they buffed our damage enough to be meaningful, would that provide enough force to remove the need for a force buff?

[Lexa_D]

Achire wrote...

Not really sure what weapons to use now. The Piranha nerf did nothing, and will result in a very big nerf later on. See Krysae nerf on June 12, TC nerf on June 26 since that didn't work, and finally July 24 coup de grace.

A Scorpion is pretty much required on Platinum. With ULM it doesn't weight too much (at X anyway), so it can be used a sidearm. It does, of course, rule out using a Talon at the same time. There don't really seem to be too many good shotguns with a low weight. It's pretty much the Wraith or nothing, and it sucks compared to the Talon. Not really much point in using the Piranha and getting reliant on a crutch that will be taken away.

Hate to say its name, but - Reegar?
Also, Hurricane.

[disappearingone11]

MP-Ryan wrote...

I finally unlocked a Slayer, and whilst I'm sure I am NOT playing this character correctly yet, I was getting sliced-and-diced by Phantoms like you would not believe. Does Phase Disruptor not bother them at all? Yeesh.  Oh yeah, and charge was only staggering them periodically.  I especially loved how they can melee you mid-dodge and stun you... that's awesome.  If this is how the slayer normally performs, I'm sticking with Novaguard and Kroguard.

Gold difficulty.

Most Slayers I've seen look for relatively safe spots and spam biotic slash, preferably through a wall (similar to what many do with the Phoenix and smash). They rarely charge or use phase disruptor. The tactic can be effective against slow moving enemies, especially Geth, but not so much against fast/agile opponents, especially phantoms. I wouldn't say it's the right way to use him, but it seems to be one of the most common, so I guess at least some people think it's good. I can say that it's unbelievably annoying to play with people doing this, though (Shadows who spam their tech slash cause the same problem): don't stand anywhere nearby unless you enjoy unending earthquakes, and goddess help you if you're trying to line up head shots.

Personally, I don't normally take him into gold matches, and given his fragility, I find it hard to use him and a vanguard, period. I'm currently experimenting with a 3/6/6/5/6 build and have successfully used him as such on silver (haven't tried it yet on gold). But of course, this means I'm effectively using him as a weak soldier with a biotic AoE, so it's definitely not a "how to make him a good vanguard" solution.