851 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Excuse me, but I would like to bring up an idea, since everybody is already talking about vanguards. How would a batarian vanguard work?

Blade Armor. Ballistic Blades and Charge. Perfect.

[disappearingone11]

-Preie- wrote...

I agree. I assume they would like to stay with charge, while is both cool and unique, it is too full of glitches. It is also hard to balance, probably hidden by complicated coding.

And I said this in another post, but they must have some numbers or something kind of method we are not seeing to deem the Vanguard as "fine." I think they took a step wrong in ME2 by making the vanguard a berserk type of warrior, which I suppose is fine to some. But I lost all feelings for the class with no tanking and nova spamming Vanguard.

Anyways, I am still trying to work on a comrehensive list of changes but so many were suggested. It is taking awhile to both accuratly condense posts and try to keep bias out

Most of the people who think vanguards are fine seem to either be focused solely on Krogans and novaguards, or they've adapted their playstyle to make vanguard X effective by using him/her as a makeshift adept or soldier (well, that or they only play on bronze and don't understand the scaling problems). What gets ignored is being able to use vanguards as vanguards: the class isn't just broken at the practical level, it's broken at the conceptual one, and Bioware either can't fix it without a massive overhaul or just doesn't care.

[disappearingone11]

tonnactus wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Excuse me, but I would like to bring up an idea, since everybody is already talking about vanguards. How would a batarian vanguard work?

Blade Armor. Ballistic Blades and Charge. Perfect.

I'd rather not see this. Not that I don't like the Batarian soldier--he's my favorite of the class--but Batarians and biotics don't really go together. I still think it's wrong that the Batarian sentinel has shockwave.

[Fade9wayz]

disappearingone11 wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

I finally unlocked a Slayer, and whilst I'm sure I am NOT playing this character correctly yet, I was getting sliced-and-diced by Phantoms like you would not believe. Does Phase Disruptor not bother them at all? Yeesh.  Oh yeah, and charge was only staggering them periodically.  I especially loved how they can melee you mid-dodge and stun you... that's awesome.  If this is how the slayer normally performs, I'm sticking with Novaguard and Kroguard.

Gold difficulty.

Most Slayers I've seen look for relatively safe spots and spam biotic slash, preferably through a wall (similar to what many do with the Phoenix and smash). They rarely charge or use phase disruptor. The tactic can be effective against slow moving enemies, especially Geth, but not so much against fast/agile opponents, especially phantoms. I wouldn't say it's the right way to use him, but it seems to be one of the most common, so I guess at least some people think it's good. I can say that it's unbelievably annoying to play with people doing this, though (Shadows who spam their tech slash cause the same problem): don't stand anywhere nearby unless you enjoy unending earthquakes, and goddess help you if you're trying to line up head shots.

Personally, I don't normally take him into gold matches, and given his fragility, I find it hard to use him and a vanguard, period. I'm currently experimenting with a 3/6/6/5/6 build and have successfully used him as such on silver (haven't tried it yet on gold). But of course, this means I'm effectively using him as a weak soldier with a biotic AoE, so it's definitely not a "how to make him a good vanguard" solution.

Well, I'm not an elite player either, but here's how I use him. I have only three points in BS, and maxed PD with area and shields debuff, maxed fitness with a mix of melee and shields. On Silver, that build eats Phantoms, and tanking Geth with light melee is very feasible. I have consistantly outscored BS spamming Slayers like that, and it is a much more fun playstyle. He's really a hit and run (or more accurately, dodge through walls) character.

On Gold, well... it's safer and more efficient to use the Acolyte/Scorpion against Phantoms. Tanking Geth is still situationnaly doable, but the slightest mistake or lag or stagger will get you killed very fast, even with stronghold package V and power efficiency/cyclonic modulator. Also, I was lucky enough that one of my friends was playing Kroguard and could pick me up everytime I was downed... He is usable, but he won't bring much to the table, to be honest. His dodge is amazing though, and has saved me from many tight spots.

[tonnactus]

disappearingone11 wrote...


I'd rather not see this. Not that I don't like the Batarian soldier--he's my favorite of the class--but Batarians and biotics don't really go together.

Says who??

Bringin Down The Sky has Batarian Shocktroopers.(vanguards)
Never playd the first game or what?

[Ladsworth]

I am in full support of TC's plight. Something needs to be done, this class needs a complete revision.

[Pedactor]

Anybody run with their Vanguard last night like I did and thought about how much more awesome he would be if Biotic Charge wasn't so boring?

I did.

[Quething]

tonnactus wrote...

Lokiwithrope wrote...

Excuse me, but I would like to bring up an idea, since everybody is already talking about vanguards. How would a batarian vanguard work?

Blade Armor. Ballistic Blades and Charge. Perfect.

I disagree. Ballistic Blades and Charge would interfere with one another; you wouldn't be able to fire off BB after a Charge (well, ~1 in 4 charges if you take 6a, but we just had that discussion), so as awesome and synergistic as that sounds at first blush (survivability + close + powerful stagger move), in practice I don't think it'd play out nearly as fun and natural as it sounds.

Also, a vanguard with mobility issues just doesn't feel right. It's why I rarely play kroguard despite him being the only guard who's not broken.

I could go for Ballistic Blades, Inferno Grenades and Warp, though, or something along those lines, since that would be a solid return to the ME1 vanguard and encourage a genuinely different playstyle.

[Leland Gaunt]

Quething wrote...
Also, a vanguard with mobility issues just doesn't feel right. It's why I rarely play kroguard despite him being the only guard who's not broken.

His Rage is broken.

[tonnactus]

Quething wrote...


I disagree. Ballistic Blades and Charge would interfere with one another; you wouldn't be able to fire off BB after a Charge (well, ~1 in 4 charges if you take 6a, but we just had that discussion), so as awesome and synergistic as that sounds at first blush (survivability + close + powerful stagger move), in practice I don't think it'd play out nearly as fun and natural as it sounds.

I would actually use Ballistic Blades before charging. Go into a group of 2-4 enemies, fire Ballistic Blades,staggering them,occasionally melee one of the mooks.
Depending on the weapon loadout, Biotic Charge would be ready after the stagger ends.
Charge to get shields back if lost. Shoot, melee,then enemies get staggered by Ballistic Blades again(when the explosive evolution is taken) and then Charge to finish of the rest.
Sounds quite good for me.

Modifié par tonnactus, 09 août 2012 - 04:25 .

[Quething]

Leland Gaunt wrote...

Quething wrote...
Also, a vanguard with mobility issues just doesn't feel right. It's why I rarely play kroguard despite him being the only guard who's not broken.

His Rage is broken.

I wasn't talking about bugs, but now that you mention it, it sure would be swell if they fixed that too. Typical how the only vanguard who works like he's supposed to still doesn't actually work like he's supposed to 

[Fade9wayz]

KV's got the same problems as the others. The difference is that he's durable enough to survive a bit of lag or bug on charge. His immunity to stun-locks helps a lot too.

A Batarian vanguards might be fun to try out, as well as a Vorcha Vanguard. The latter might be as durable as the Kroguard

[Pancakes71]

I imagine n7 shadow without cloak, using crap pistol and replenishing shield on every shadow strike (but also longer cooldown) would feel a lot like me2 vanguard.

Modifié par Pancakes71, 09 août 2012 - 04:48 .

[Pedro Costa]

Pancakes71 wrote...

I imagine n7 shadow without cloak, using crap pistol and replenishing shield on every shadow strike (but also longer cooldown) would feel a lot like me2 vanguard.

The biggest difference between ME2 Shep and ME3 MP 'guards is simply this one:
ME3 guards have average protection and crap damage with a Charge that leaves a LOT to be desired.
That's the reality.

It isn't the current power selection, I don't know where people get that idea. Our playstyle was pretty much charge -> kill stuff. It wasn't Shadow Strike and it sure as hell wasn't crap sidearms. 
It was an all-mighty Charge (compared to the power scale of ME2) and an all-mighty Shotgun to the face for great carnage. That was all we used, and was all we needed.
Enemies on perches were our only bane, and with the Phalanx or Sniper training or Reave, not even that.

The problem is that ME3's Vanguards aren't properly scaled to the playstyle they must employ on the current metagame.

Buff Charge! Buff Nova! Buff Smash! Buff our passives and increase our base carry weight, and you'd see a LOT more of the ME2 feel back.

[tonnactus]

I guess they introduced weapons like the Reegar and Piranha as "vanguard weapons" where you have to be in the face of the enemies to get the most benefit of that. They removed the short range damage multiplier but failed to make Biotic Charge like Adrenaline Rush or Cloak where even the basic version increase weapon damage by a huge amount. 25 percent additional weapon damage only as an evolution is a joke,no doubt. That should be the base at least.

Modifié par tonnactus, 09 août 2012 - 06:29 .

[Achire]

Quething wrote...

I've asked around but never heard a conclusive answer to this: what's the relationship between damage and force? There must be one, since enough damage can cause staggers and enough force can cause damage (even before impact with a surface) but without direct math, it's hard to make coherent suggestions. If they buffed the everloving crap out of Charge and Nova force so that even drellguards can take Area and still stagger phantoms/atlases/primes with enough bonuses from passives & gear, would that meaningfully improve our ability to kill too? Conversely, if they buffed our damage enough to be meaningful, would that provide enough force to remove the need for a force buff?

Pure damage will only cause staggers on Banshees. 10% of Force is supposed to be converted into damage, but there is some discussion if this actually works or not. Force heavily affects rag doll damage, but I don't think there is a formula for that. The only actually important thing Force does is stagger; everything else is minor.

[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...
The biggest difference between ME2 Shep and ME3 MP 'guards is simply this one:
ME3 guards have average protection and crap damage with a Charge that leaves a LOT to be desired.
That's the reality.

It isn't the current power selection, I don't know where people get that idea. Our playstyle was pretty much charge -> kill stuff. It wasn't Shadow Strike and it sure as hell wasn't crap sidearms. 
It was an all-mighty Charge (compared to the power scale of ME2) and an all-mighty Shotgun to the face for great carnage. That was all we used, and was all we needed.
Enemies on perches were our only bane, and with the Phalanx or Sniper training or Reave, not even that.

Charge wasn't all-mighty. Vanguards died constantly and everyone thought they sucked for months after release. It took a long time for people to start to figure out how to play them, and the skill curve was still really high, because so much of it was in all the things you did that weren't Charge in order to support the playstyle. You had incendiary ammo, which you buffed up to do an AoE explosive fireball of doom which, and the significance of this cannot be overstated, crowd-controlled everything around you even through protection. You had squad cryo, which crowd-controlled everything at a distance. You had Jack or Jacob or Samara plus Miranda or Samara or Thane doing quick biotic explosions to stagger mobs as you engaged them.

If you didn't do those things, didn't use those tools, and tried to charge anything more threatening than a single Loki mech standing by itself in a corner? You died. You simply could not charge into a group of three Collectors and live if Charge+Shoot was all you did.

The geth colossus trick on Haestrom, probably the most awesome and godlike you can feel in ME2, requires a strong shotgun with damage upgrades out the wazoo, shield health and DR buffs, a fully-upgraded Charge with the biotic cooldown bonus, maxed ammo powers and all of the geth trash being at the other end of the map annoying Kal'Reegar and your squadmates. Charge was amazing, and made tanking the colossus possible, but it wasn't the sum total of the vanguard's success.

In ME3 the devs seem to have overlooked that. Charge itself, the damage and protection and mobility it provides, hasn't really changed. It's everything that supported it that's gone. Novaguards are the only MP guards who have any substitute for the multiplicity of crowd control options ME2 guards had between ammo and squadmates, and even then Nova can't reliably stagger the most dangerous enemies on Gold/Platinum, and unlike ME2 CC, it requires sacrificing your shieldgate. The Charge cooldown can't be lowered for MP guards without sacrificing weapon damage. Weapon damage upgrades can't be reliably acquired via the RNG. Shield improvements are relatively meaningless due to a change in the incoming damage/health ratio. class passives no longer boost cooldown.

As clumsy and poorly thought-out as the vanguard kit was in ME2, it was still a lot more than Charge, and as limited and one-note as the ideal playstyle was, it was a matter of strong passives supporting a single good active ability rather than possessing a single incredible ability to begin with. If they're going to limit us to a single ability in MP and expect us to perform at par, they need to realize that it needs to be stronger from the start. If they're not going to make it stronger, they need to adjust kits to better support it.

Modifié par Quething, 09 août 2012 - 07:08 .

[tonnactus]

Quething wrote...
wasn't the sum total of the vanguard's success.

In ME3 the devs seem to have overlooked that. Novaguards are the only MP guards who have any substitute for the multiplicity of crowd control options ME2 guards had between ammo and squadmates,

Phase Disruptor? Barrier Detonation. Lift and Cluster Grenades. Or making own biotic explosions either with Lift, Stasis or Smash(in this case,even Tech Bursts are possible).
Or teammates actually working together.

Modifié par tonnactus, 09 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[Quething]

Barrier detonation and phase disruptor have the cooldown and vulnerability issue. Charging into a bluesplosion is good but only if you can set one up; Smash and Stasis have long cooldowns (there's your "useful gun" issue again) and Stasis and Pull have limited valid targets. Nades I'll cede you now that gear and pylons have made supplies reliable.

Teammates working together is an incredibly invalid argument, though. Saying a class can't do its job or survive without help from other characters is simply saying a class can't do its job or survive, full stop, and that's a problem. One the majority if not all of infiltrators, adepts, engineers, soldiers, and sentinels do not share.

Modifié par Quething, 09 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[Pedro Costa]

As clumsy and poorly thought-out as the vanguard kit was in ME2, it was still a lot more than Charge, and as limited and one-note as the ideal playstyle was, it was a matter of strong passives supporting a single good active ability rather than possessing a single incredible ability to begin with. If they're going to limit us to a single ability in MP and expect us to perform at par, they need to realize that it needs to be stronger from the start. If they're not going to make it stronger, they need to adjust kits to better support it.

Typed a whole lot for something so simple =P

As I've done in the past, I exaggerated, but you just agreed with me, tho.
Buff charge, buff the passives and the ME2 feel comes back. I don't see why you needed to write so much for a simply misunderstanding of semantics.

[Pancakes71]

It's not charge that is underpowered, it's the weapon system that has changed. In ME2 claymore was aweful at range, yet amongst the handful of weapons you could one-shoot normal mooks with on insanity, making vanguard's charge a great offensive. The shields that were replenished went down in half a second so you had to use every crowd control you had available to survive (as said above).

You had to plan a lot, you died a lot but it was damn fun.

[curly haired boy]

i really feel that we need high damage lightweight shotguns like the piranha to bring back that old school feel. a vanguard with a pistol doesn't feel right

hell, if you don't want the piranha to be overused, just make it heavier and give vanguards 90% shotgun weight reduction

in fact, vanguards should have that by default.

[Pancakes71]

Not really about the damage of the shotguns, but range multiplier. Smart choke on claymore in me3 and there's absolutely no point of going point-blank with your enemy.

[disappearingone11]

tonnactus wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...


I'd rather not see this. Not that I don't like the Batarian soldier--he's my favorite of the class--but Batarians and biotics don't really go together.

Says who??

Bringin Down The Sky has Batarian Shocktroopers.(vanguards)
Never playd the first game or what?

I played ME1 quite a bit, but not the expansion, so I missed the Batarians' introduction. If they had vanguards, then so be it; I was mainly thinking of ME2 where you see plenty of them, but they're all soldiers or sentinels.

That said, I'm still not keen on the idea mainly because the problem with vanguards isn't a lack of numbers or variety (other than being human heavy, but that's moot since all classes are). The only real plus would be having another durable race to go with the Krogans, though even that wouldn't be an issue if the non-Krogans weren't so weak, which to me is the core issue of what's wrong with the class. Damage output is secondary because one, increased survivability will naturally increase the amount of damage done, and two, buffing damage without addressing durability would just turn vanguards into suicide bombers. I suppose you could add a third: buffing both. But the problem then would be that unless the buffs were very small, we'd run the risk of overpowering the class, and I don't really want that any more than keeping them underpowered. So basically, I just want them to fix the ones we have, not add more, even if the new ones were built right.

[-Preie-]

tonnactus wrote...

Quething wrote...
wasn't the sum total of the vanguard's success.

In ME3 the devs seem to have overlooked that. Novaguards are the only MP guards who have any substitute for the multiplicity of crowd control options ME2 guards had between ammo and squadmates,

Phase Disruptor? Barrier Detonation. Lift and Cluster Grenades. Or making own biotic explosions either with Lift, Stasis or Smash(in this case,even Tech Bursts are possible).
Or teammates actually working together.

You are basing things off of perfect situations. Which other class depends on so heavily on deriving such outcomes? Yes, I know that a team and the mission will go better with tons of biotic explosions and tech explosions. And yes, to have sucess in Platinum, everyday teams will need teamwork. But we require teams to be on stand-by to explode us out of a sync kill.

Furthermore, charge and another ability are on counterproductive counters for us. Charge and survive or utilize a pull and then charge. You may not have a chance. Plus you are still depending on latency in order for a sucessful biotic explosion. And we also have to forgo a shotgun to have such outcome.

Which other class has all these standards? I know other classes have situations, with both strengths and weaknesses... just seems vanguard has more and with the current risk/reward system, it is heavy on one side with too many if statements.

However, I did notice another thread was talking about causing tech explosions with disruptor ammo and biotic abilities. Does this work with charge? Can it be used to our benefit? I need to run some tests it seems.

Edit: I just noticed that Quething made a nicer and simpler reply above mine. Listen to him/her

Modifié par -Preie-, 10 août 2012 - 01:14 .