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[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

As clumsy and poorly thought-out as the vanguard kit was in ME2, it was still a lot more than Charge, and as limited and one-note as the ideal playstyle was, it was a matter of strong passives supporting a single good active ability rather than possessing a single incredible ability to begin with. If they're going to limit us to a single ability in MP and expect us to perform at par, they need to realize that it needs to be stronger from the start. If they're not going to make it stronger, they need to adjust kits to better support it.

Typed a whole lot for something so simple =P

As I've done in the past, I exaggerated, but you just agreed with me, tho.
Buff charge, buff the passives and the ME2 feel comes back. I don't see why you needed to write so much for a simply misunderstanding of semantics.

I like to rant about vanguards, what can I say. 

[Pedro Costa]

Quething wrote...
I like to rant about vanguards, what can I say. 

Nothing wrong with that.

Now, if only BioWare listened:(

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Quething wrote...
I like to rant about vanguards, what can I say. 

Nothing wrong with that.

Now, if only BioWare listened:(

I can only hope that someone of significance at Bioware is taking note of this discussion and others like it. That the class is broken in many ways and doesn't at all function as intended is hardly a secret. We just need to get the right people to care enough to do something about it. And until or unless that happens, rant away, my friends. You will not be alone.

[Master_Smurf]

Bioware should just take the N7 Shadow as their basis for the Vanguard class - that is the ultimate CQC if you choose to play that way in this game, which makes it an even better character.

[MP-Ryan]

Master_Smurf wrote...

Bioware should just take the N7 Shadow as their basis for the Vanguard class - that is the ultimate CQC if you choose to play that way in this game, which makes it an even better character.

Really, the Slayer should have been the Shadow, except for BC instead of TC.

I'm still having trouble figuring out the slayer, and my main problem seems to be that you basically require high-level ultra rares or rares to equip it with an effective weapon.  If the class was built around melee instead of requiring a weapon while charge is resetting, it would be the most effective Vanguard next to the Kroguard.

The class as a whole really needs some love.  I hope someone in balacing or development is paying attention to this thread.  Vanguards excel in the lower difficulties, but they get more and more outclassed the higher you go...unless you play it as an adept.

[LULZferBAKON]

Bump for great Vanguard justice.

[Pedactor]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Master_Smurf wrote...

Bioware should just take the N7 Shadow as their basis for the Vanguard class - that is the ultimate CQC if you choose to play that way in this game, which makes it an even better character.

Really, the Slayer should have been the Shadow, except for BC instead of TC.

I'm still having trouble figuring out the slayer, and my main problem seems to be that you basically require high-level ultra rares or rares to equip it with an effective weapon.  If the class was built around melee instead of requiring a weapon while charge is resetting, it would be the most effective Vanguard next to the Kroguard.

The class as a whole really needs some love.  I hope someone in balacing or development is paying attention to this thread.  Vanguards excel in the lower difficulties, but they get more and more outclassed the higher you go...unless you play it as an adept.

I agree.  100%.  The only really successful Slayers I've played with or have played as on Gold and Platinum involving Charging, light melees for invincibility, then porting behind a wall and spamming Biotic slash until all the things die.

I only put 3 in Phase Disruptor simply as an oh-crap button when I misjudged a spawn or to snipe from afar with a gun. 

His charge should have been Shadow Strike, Phase Disruptor, likewise, could have been very powerful with a Cloak bonus, especially firing it up to 4 times with the TC bonus specced that way.

Charge on the Slayer is simply to refill barriers and buff Biotic Slash.

[RamsenC]

How is everyone still underrating Phase Disrupter? You don't need the gimmicky melee for invincibility unless you put yourself in a bad situation. Spawn bomb with Phase Disrupter, clean up with Piranha, and move on.

Like all Vanguards, bosses are a weakness, but the Piranha's crazy dps covers that. Slayer dominates Gold Geth/Cerb easily. Slayer is not great against Reapers or Plat since single target dps is king, but all Vanguard have that problem.

[Achire]

Aye. See, for example, sy7ar's thread on Slayer.

I messaged Fagnan about some of these Biotic Charge concerns we have. Not sure if it will help anything, but it's not going to hurt either.

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...
I messaged Fagnan about some of these Biotic Charge concerns we have. Not sure if it will help anything, but it's not going to hurt either.

It isn't only Charge unfortunately, but it's a pretty big part nonetheless.

Thank you.

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

Aye. See, for example, sy7ar's thread on Slayer.

I messaged Fagnan about some of these Biotic Charge concerns we have. Not sure if it will help anything, but it's not going to hurt either.

I hope you pointed him at this thread.  It has a lot of constructive feedback from people who obviously play and have a passion for the vanguard class.

[Achire]

sy7ar feels Drellguards are fine on Platinum. He's a really great player but I don't think he'd help us with this, heh.

[MP-Ryan]

Achire wrote...

sy7ar feels Drellguards are fine on Platinum. He's a really great player but I don't think he'd help us with this, heh.

I meant Eric F. =)

[Achire]

Haha. That was silly of me.

[Pedro Costa]

http://social.biowar...ndex/13599309/2
And this is why we can't have nice things. "herp derp you charge you get shields back. perfectly fine, derp"

[Hackulator]

Nova needs a little bit of a buff to its damage. People tend to think that because an exceptional novaguard player is really hard to kill, this balances with the low damage. However, while a Novaguard can survive at ranges where other classes would quickly die, they also have no choice but to operate at that range. Furthermore they are still in about as much danger as a skilled player of another class staying at their preferred range. The Novaguard both requires more mechanical skill AND does less damage than the other class is likely to do.

[MP-Ryan]

Hackulator wrote...

Nova needs a little bit of a buff to its damage. People tend to think that because an exceptional novaguard player is really hard to kill, this balances with the low damage. However, while a Novaguard can survive at ranges where other classes would quickly die, they also have no choice but to operate at that range. Furthermore they are still in about as much danger as a skilled player of another class staying at their preferred range. The Novaguard both requires more mechanical skill AND does less damage than the other class is likely to do.

...and you can be an excellent novaguard and still die quite easily when certain enemies fail to stun and instead stunlock you.

Though my favorite cheap move that happened to me today was charging an atlas, who fired a rocket while I was charging, which left me without barrier as soon as I landed from charge and stunned me.  It wasn't lag, I was hosting!

The risks of novaguard really do outpace the rewards at high difficulties. 

[u21]

Checking in again.
Has anyone discussed the feasibility of simply live-updating the non-krogan vanguards to do the following:

Biotic charge gets inherent 25-30% chance to crit bosses.
Biotic charge gets inherent invulnerabiliy from stagger from 1-3 seconds.
Fitness giving a small regen perk in non-shield evos.
Level-based Biotic damage buffs (1% at level one to 10% at level 20).
And finally, since the vanguard can rarely take advantage of the cover defense bonus and still do his job, boost bade health and shield for all by 30 per fitness powers 3-6, inherent.

[Achire]

I don't think any of those could be done with just edits to coalesced.bin, that is to say without a patch.

[LULZferBAKON]

Had a thought, perhaps Bioware knows how skewed Vanguards are and are waiting until the next patch to do a proper overhaul of them, and are simply not bothering with changing them in weekly updates.

Wishful thinking, but a man can dream.

[Achire]

Right, and they'll fix the Vanguard bug too while they're at it

[shepisavanguardgetoverit]

Achire wrote...

Right, and they'll fix the Vanguard bug too while they're at it

And pigs will fly:D

.......................................Or charge?

[tonnactus]

LULZferBAKON wrote...

Had a thought, perhaps Bioware knows how skewed Vanguards are and are waiting until the next patch to do a proper overhaul of them, and are simply not bothering with changing them in weekly updates.

Wishful thinking, but a man can dream.

I even doubt that there will be a next patch...

[-Preie-]

Ha ha... Well if pigs keep charging, it is inevitable they will eventually fly 8)

[tonnactus]

u21 wrote...

Checking in again.
Has anyone discussed the feasibility of simply live-updating the non-krogan vanguards to do the following:

Biotic charge gets inherent 25-30% chance to crit bosses.

What do you mean with crit? How much critical damage a vanguard would make and based on what?(weapon/Biotic Charge Damage)