851 réponses à ce sujet

[u21]

Something basic and easy linked directly to bc, say 300% damage with guaranteed stagger or stun.

[Gamemako]

Bwnci wrote...

Tell me why a team of three Furys and a Human Vanguard can't dominate a Platinum game.

Instant shield rip prevents Vanguard from using Nova, after which the Vanguard just dies and the team scrambles to revive the idiot lying right next to a pile of Ravager goo and a living, angry Brute. Alternatively, the very existence of any Banshees at all pretty much ends this method outright because the Vanguard can't afford to charge her. Again, a more damaging and more reliable setup would just to be add another Throw user -- another Fury, a Human Sentinel, or an Asari Adept -- and just have her be a dedicated detonator. All the benefit, none of the drawbacks.

Bwnci wrote...

The Vanguards are the last teamplayers.

They are only team-players in the sense that they are absolutely worthless without an entire team to haul their sorry asses through.

Achire wrote...

I think we're best off asking for buffs
than can be implemented in balance changes. The most they've done in
patches is fix bugs and do small changes like adding more
invulnerability frames to charge. Not to mention balance changes are
weekly, and patches come every three months.

I do think we should be looking for short-term balance changes, yes, but I also think we should look at superior long-term options. Some things cannot be fixed in the short term. Vanguards will always be stupidly-vulnerable to stagger without a full-on patch.

tonnactus wrote...

What? Lift Grenades are the most
damaging grenades in the game. And actually Phantoms and Hunters are
plenty in Platinum and the most dangerous enemy types aside of the
Banshee.

No, they're actually the weakest by a considerable margin. LGs are 700 base with a nigh-useless bonus against barrier only and only a single detonation against only unprotected targets (read: functionally useless mechanic). Clusters get 3x420 base = 1260 total base, and they set off up to 3 detonations regardless of protection. Clusters also have the functionally-useless +50% barrier bonus, but that is neither here nor there. Frags are 750 base with +75% against shields or armor. Inferno grenades are 1000 base over 8 seconds with an innate 50% against armor and an additional 50% possible (making it 1500 or 2250 base against armor). Arc Grenades are 400 base with an additional 50% multiplicative bonus and double damage against shields, plus 75% versus armor or shields. It can then deal a potential 2100 base against shields and 600 against armor or 1200 versus shields and 1050 vs armor. Homing Grenades are 800 base (already winning), get +50% vs. all targets via DoT (1200) and then 60% versus armor (1920 base) or an effective 1.2x damage multiplier vs all targets (1440 base). Either way, it's doubling the power of Lift Grenades.

Bleachrude wrote...

Heh....Drell vanguard solo platinum is up on youtube

He charges about 10 times over the entire game. He actually just sits in one place with a Reegar for nearly the entire match. He's not playing like a Vanguard, and buffing Charge to high heaven will do absolutely nothing to affect the strategy he used.

Achire wrote...

The formula for damage reduction is presented in this thread.
The current 50% Damage Reduction of Charge actually reduces damage
taken by 37.5%. In a defensive Justicar Bubble, this jumps to 90% DR or
effectual 67.5% DR. Buffing the DR to 60% would result in an effective
45% DR (or 75% in defensive bubble). It definitely should not be above
65%, as that results in an almost 80% effective DR while in a defensive
bubble.

How frequently is an Asari Defensive bubble readily available for you to stand in for 4 seconds after using Biotic Charge? Almost never. This is why people don't adore the Batarians. They can be totally invincible inside of that bubble while using a heavy melee with Blade Armor. Do you really think that makes a lick of difference? Nope. Nobody builds around having a Justicar Bubble not only available but also in the spot you intend to occupy. It is a nice potential bonus, but so rare that it's functionally meaningless -- even if it were 133% DR, as it is for the Batarians.

Achire wrote...

Staggering multiple Phantoms is something I
think should stay a Kroguard specialty.

I simply disagree. Any character built for power damage should be able to do it. That Krogan are able to do it is all well and good, but there's no good reason that everyone else should be flat-out gimped in comparison. I mean, hell,  Having multiple Phantoms is a recipe for without-a-paddle for all other Vanguards. Area throw can do it, but throwing your entire body means you just can't? What kind of nonsense is that? The lack of this gimping is another part of the reason that Krogan Vanguards are still used in Platinum while all other Vanguards are just kind of a joke. 'Course, if I had my 'druthers, we'd drop the existence of that entire F&D evolution. It is really just more middle finger to Vanguards, making them choose between survivability in one situation and survivability in another, making them choose ****ed now or ****ed later. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That needs to end. You should be choosing between surviving (Radius) and murdering (30% expose, say). Same with the Barrier/Bonus Power evos: Bonus Power needs to die and make room for an offensive counterpoint to Barrier. Those changes are obviously things that can only be addressed in a patch, but we can at the very least eliminate the unabashed gimping of the class by making F&D at rank 4 superfluous as it is on the Krogan.

Modifié par Gamemako, 11 août 2012 - 01:55 .

[MP-Ryan]

The more and more I play my Novaguard, the more and more I think something needs to be done about Vanguards getting staggered. I am really tired of charging a barrier-less Phantom at point blank range and instead of her going flying, I get melee'd, staggered, and killed. I'm about ready to retire my Novaguard for Gold and go back to Kroguard since at least he plays like a vanguard should.

[Gamemako]

MP-Ryan wrote...

...something needs to be done about Vanguards getting staggered...

Sadly, I'm pretty sure this can only be addressed in a patch.

[Pedro Costa]

I still like my idea of making Rank 4a a single-target primer and 4b a (proper) detonator.
Force & damage
+x% damage & Force
+Set an enemy up for biotic detonation. Weaken enemy armour by 15% (pseudo-warp, if you will)
Radius
+Hit up to 2 additional targets within 2 meters of the impact point
+Increase force and damage of biotic detonations by 50% (the usual for detonators)

As far as damage/force multipliers to charge itself go... we've had a lot of suggestions, all of them pretty much imply that single-target Charge should stagger anything that isn't a Prime, Brute, Banshee or Atlas and _especially_ Phantoms in Platinum.

I think 300 base damage, 650 base impact force and 70% DR for 4 secs after a Biotic Charge are a good place to start from in addition to the usual 50% base shield recovery.

[Achire]

Gamemako wrote...

I do think we should be looking for short-term balance changes, yes, but I also think we should look at superior long-term options. Some things cannot be fixed in the short term. Vanguards will always be stupidly-vulnerable to stagger without a full-on patch.

Fair point about stagger resistance, since those are what usually gets you killed on Platinum. I don't really know why player staggers even exist in the game, but Turians, Krogan, Batarians and all Vanguards definitely should have a Kroguard style frontal stagger immunity. Stagger immunity, I think, is something that might eventually happen. What I don't think will ever happen is a MMO style large revamping of a skill tree. Therefore I don't think we should spend our energy planning or demanding such.

Gamemako wrote...

How frequently is an Asari Defensive bubble readily available for you to stand in for 4 seconds after using Biotic Charge? Almost never. This is why people don't adore the Batarians. They can be totally invincible inside of that bubble while using a heavy melee with Blade Armor. Do you really think that makes a lick of difference? Nope. Nobody builds around having a Justicar Bubble not only available but also in the spot you intend to occupy. It is a nice potential bonus, but so rare that it's functionally meaningless -- even if it were 133% DR, as it is for the Batarians.

Almost never. However it's not that difficult for a Justicar to run behind a Novaguard and put up a bubble when there's 3 Primes to tank. Works surprisingly well on Platinum. Would it make a big difference even if it was 133%? Probably not, since there's still sync kill enemies everywhere and it's not exactly an efficient way to farm. Nevertheless it would be significantly more useful than the current Batarian immunity.

I do like increasing the DR as a solution since it increases effective HP without having to change the base health/shields, which are probably linked to the adept versions anyway.  Also it encourages an aggressive playstyle: you only get the DR if you Charge. I just don't know how far it should go considering that DR stacks in this game. The Kroguard Charge DR certainly should not be significantly buffed.

Gamemako wrote...

I simply disagree. Any character built for power damage should be able to do it. That Krogan are able to do it is all well and good, but there's no good reason that everyone else should be flat-out gimped in comparison. I mean, hell,  Having multiple Phantoms is a recipe for without-a-paddle for all other Vanguards. Area throw can do it, but throwing your entire body means you just can't? What kind of nonsense is that? The lack of this gimping is another part of the reason that Krogan Vanguards are still used in Platinum while all other Vanguards are just kind of a joke. 'Course, if I had my 'druthers, we'd drop the existence of that entire F&D evolution. It is really just more middle finger to Vanguards, making them choose between survivability in one situation and survivability in another, making them choose ****ed now or ****ed later. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. That needs to end. You should be choosing between surviving (Radius) and murdering (30% expose, say). Same with the Barrier/Bonus Power evos: Bonus Power needs to die and make room for an offensive counterpoint to Barrier. Those changes are obviously things that can only be addressed in a patch, but we can at the very least eliminate the unabashed gimping of the class by making F&D at rank 4 superfluous as it is on the Krogan.

I see your point. What I like about the current system is that Kroguard Charge is more powerful and actually has some functional benefits in addition to the incredibly sluggish animation. What sucks on Gold currently and will continue to do so on Platinum when they get the thresholds fixed is that you need both Rank 4 Force&Damage and Rank 5 Power Synergy to stagger Phantoms. So even if Weapon Synergy is eventually buffed to not be terrible, it's still going to require a base Force buff to Charge to be really useful.

[Gamemako]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

I still like my idea of making Rank 4a a single-target primer and 4b a (proper) detonator.
Force & damage
+x% damage & Force
+Set an enemy up for biotic detonation. Weaken enemy armour by 15% (pseudo-warp, if you will)
Radius
+Hit up to 2 additional targets within 2 meters of the impact point
+Increase force and damage of biotic detonations by 50% (the usual for detonators)

As far as damage/force multipliers to charge itself go... we've had a lot of suggestions, all of them pretty much imply that single-target Charge should stagger anything that isn't a Prime, Brute, Banshee or Atlas and _especially_ Phantoms in Platinum.

I think 300 base damage, 650 base impact force and 70% DR for 4 secs after a Biotic Charge are a good place to start from in addition to the usual 50% base shield recovery.

I there's a bit too much in your evos, but I do like the basic idea. I would put it this way:

Damage & Detonation: +40% damage, +50% detonation damage
Radius: same as current

Would remove force from the equation and have it standardized  to stagger Phantoms. One evo is about damage, the other about survival. For rank 6, I'd have Barrier (current evo) vs. expose (+30% on target for 4 seconds). Expose would have a pretty short window, so would be as much about teamwork as individual skill. Alternatively, some piercing evolution would work for either.

This reminds me, I never got around to producing the numbers on the plan for fixing Vanguards. I'll drop it in the balance group before I post it here.

[-Preie-]

Achire wrote...

I see your point. What I like about the current system is that Kroguard Charge is more powerful and actually has some functional benefits in addition to the incredibly sluggish animation. What sucks on Gold currently and will continue to do so on Platinum when they get the thresholds fixed is that you need both Rank 4 Force&Damage and Rank 5 Power Synergy to stagger Phantoms. So even if Weapon Synergy is eventually buffed to not be terrible, it's still going to require a base Force buff to Charge to be really useful.

Which, once again, shoehorns us into a power spec and tailored to one type of enemy as you mention. But as other I venture in other vanguard forums, I continue see this support that the vanguard is fine.

I really need to not work so many 12's to get this thread updated. I may return later tonight and sit down to chug at it. If you have suggested peices that you wish to incoorperate in the OP, please, don't be afraid to email me!

Vanguard charge back to work for now 8).

Peace friends and good luck on the challenge this weekend!

[Gamemako]

Achire wrote...

Almost never. However it's not that difficult for a Justicar to run behind a Novaguard and put up a bubble when there's 3 Primes to tank. Works surprisingly well on Platinum. Would it make a big difference even if it was 133%? Probably not, since there's still sync kill enemies everywhere and it's not exactly an efficient way to farm. Nevertheless it would be significantly more useful than the current Batarian immunity.

Provided she doesn't get shot in the process and the Vanguard doesn't die first. And even then, it would only really help non-Human and non-Krogan Vanguards, since the former is already using invulnerability frames and the latter is already pretty damn hard to kill in a Justicar's bubble. Are we worried about a Drell Vanguard becoming a tank for 3 Primes? I am going to have to go with no. The instant you screw up, you get smacked and die. I don't see this becoming a workable strategy in any case.

Achire wrote...

The Kroguard Charge DR certainly should not be significantly buffed.

Kroguard has a unique power.  He wouldn't get the buff.

Achire wrote...

What sucks on Gold currently and will continue to do so on Platinum when they get the thresholds fixed is that you need both Rank 4 Force&Damage and Rank 5 Power Synergy to stagger Phantoms. So even if Weapon Synergy is eventually buffed to not be terrible, it's still going to require a base Force buff to Charge to be really useful.

All that work when Throw does it just fine. Frustrating, innit?

[Achire]

Coincidentally that is also how I feel about Novaguards being "great detonators".

[Pedro Costa]

Gamemako wrote...
Damage & Detonation: +40% damage, +50% detonation damage
Radius: same as current

Would remove force from the equation and have it standardized  to stagger Phantoms. One evo is about damage, the other about survival.

I can see your point, but still think forcing a vanguard to always be a detonator isn't promoting much diversity (or, better put, a "sense" of diversity).
Per example, Tactical Cloak's evo 4 lets you decide if you want to be a primary damage dealer or a more versatile, objective and team oriented player. You can still do both things with either upgrade, but one's better suited for one thing than the other.
By making one Charge prime a target and the other become a proper detonator, you'd give the player the option to rely more on him/herself, set a target up for a teammate, or rely instead on their team to set a target/mob up and charge into it/them.
I also think of Biotic Detonations as CC since they have a rather decent staggering impact force, which would help an area-vanguard stagger targets they normally wouldn't be able to and thus enhance their survivability/compensate lower force&damage output.

To counter-balance this, Charge up to rank 3 wouldn't set nor detonate anything, the player would chose at rank 4 exactly what they'd want their charge to be.

For rank 6, I'd have Barrier (current evo) vs. expose (+30% on target for 4 seconds). Expose would have a pretty short window, so would be as much about teamwork as individual skill. Alternatively, some piercing evolution would work for either.

I still can't see myself chosing anything other than the barrier and that's why I didn't even tackle the rank 6 evos. Unless they gave me a boss-instakill Charge, I'll always pick the one that guarantees me more survivability, granted, it's mostly due to the shields not going over 825pts on non-kroguards unless I bring a cyclonic modulator, but I doubt BioWare'll ever change that aspect of the class to make me even consider anything other than upgrade 6b. It's too essential above Silver.

[Quething]

-Preie- wrote...

However, I did notice another thread was talking about causing tech explosions with disruptor ammo and biotic abilities. Does this work with charge? Can it be used to our benefit?

Yes, it does. Disruptor ammo + Charge, Nova, Shockwave, nades, or Barrier detonation = techsplosion.

Since we don't know the math on ammo types, that I'm aware, or what level they count as for purposes of tech bursts/fire explosions/whatever, it's hard to say just how much benefit this actually is. But even level 2 Disruptor repeatedly triggered with Nova makes a noticable difference in how fast I'm able to solo a banshee when I'm last man standing with my novaguard and her sad underpowered Eviscerator.

DarkLord_PT wrote...

http://social.biowar...ndex/13599309/2
And this is why we can't have nice things. "herp derp you charge you get shields back. perfectly fine, derp"

Yeah, I bit my tongue (fingers?) pretty hard when I saw that thread.  Tonnactus' suggestion is a good one, though. Simple, effective... if they did the numbers right it'd be a one-stroke solution to the "weak adept, not fluid hybrid" issue, and since we'd still be completely subject to the cooldown limit, we couldn't use it to become a better weapon class than soldiers like the infiltrator does.

As far as the survivability/damage choice goes, I agree that it makes sense to make that choice at 4 when you go Area (AoE stagger, for safety against crowds of pyros or phantoms) or damage (single-target murder). I don't know that I'd want to leave force out of the issue completely, though, or that I'd always still choose Barrier at 6 even if a strong enough damage option existed. A properly specced and buffed Throw, with power bonuses from class passives, gear, and Tech Armor, can stagger an Atlas by itself on Gold, or one-shot a trooper. Why shouldn't a properly specced and buffed Charge with power synergy do the same? If a Shadow can achieve something approaching our survivability with their teleport, why shouldn't we be able to achieve something approaching their lethality with ours? Instakilling mooks isn't instakilling bosses or even phantoms, but if we're at least staggering them that's, itself, enough survivability that it's worth considering, IMO.

Modifié par Quething, 11 août 2012 - 12:10 .

[Pedro Costa]

Quething wrote...
Yeah, I bit my tongue (fingers?) pretty hard when I saw that thread.  

Want another one?
http://social.biowar...ndex/13602473/3 
Seriously, there are people happy Vanguards are an underpowered class and that no one uses them.

Tonnactus' suggestion is a good one, though. Simple, effective... if they did the numbers right it'd be a one-stroke solution to the "weak adept, not fluid hybrid" issue, and since we'd still be completely subject to the cooldown limit, we couldn't use it to become a better weapon class than soldiers like the infiltrator does.

Oh my, didn't you read the comments from the Silver/Bronze players who never touched a Vanguard in ME3 MP? Novaguards are perfectly fine on Gold and in Platinum you just need 3 furys, changing them would make them more OP than the geth infiltrators with 2000+ shields, wall hack and invisibility!

As far as the survivability/damage choice goes, I agree that it makes sense to make that choice at 4 when you go Area (AoE stagger, for safety against crowds of pyros or phantoms) or damage (single-target murder).

Sadly, neither evolution does what it is suppose to in higher difficulties. Area Charge isn't anywhere near close to stagger phantoms and F&D Charge is anything but single-target murder (unless you're refering to the Vanguard itself =P)

I don't know that I'd want to leave force out of the issue completely, though

Neither would I. Staggering anything you charge at enhances your survivability by a lot. If you could stagger Geth constantly after a Charge, I guarantee they'd be a lot less of a nuisance.

A properly specced and buffed Throw, with power bonuses from class passives, gear, and Tech Armor, can stagger an Atlas by itself on Gold, or one-shot a trooper.

Vanguards properl themselves, throw is ranged, that, to me, makes a lot of difference.
Besides, we don't have Tech Armor

Why shouldn't a properly specced and buffed Charge with power synergy do the same?

Because BioWare seems to hate MP Vanguards.

If a Shadow can achieve something approaching our survivability with their teleport

Approaching? Stardusk's Shadow Video shows it being on equal or even superior standing to non-krogan 'guards.

why shouldn't we be able to achieve something approaching their lethality with ours? Instakilling mooks isn't instakilling bosses or even phantoms, but if we're at least staggering them that's, itself, enough survivability that it's worth considering, IMO.

We all agree staggering is a must for the playstyle Vanguards are suppose to have.

[MP-Ryan]

I was thinking more about this today after an exceedingly frustrating Condor-Cerberus-Gold match this morning in which my poor Novaguard was shredded by turrets, phantoms, and turrets and phantoms working together when I was ultimately sync-killed and the rest of the team wiped. I've got a speculative list of single changes that, were any one of these implemented at Gold/Platinum on vanguards in general, would make the class actually play like a biotic/soldier hybrid (i.e. the vanguard description) instead of a flying weak adept.

1. Biotic charge produces a guaranteed stagger against all enemies at evolution 3, and guaranteed stagger resistance for 5 seconds after use. If the vanguard is supposed to be a heavy biotic soldier, it should act like one. I put this one first because I honestly think it is the single biggest tweak that would make this class viable at high difficulties, producing an actual reward for use the high-risk charge power. It should also eliminate the BS where an enemy you charge instantly destroys your entire barrier when you land.

2. Provide two innate characteristics that don't require specialization as part of the passive class power. First, a large weight reduction bonus on shotguns. They are, after all, supposed to be a vanguards signature weapon. Second, add a point-blank double-damage modifier for all vanguards. If you blast an enemy in the face after a charge, they should bloody well feel it. While not as game-saving as stagger/resistance, it would go a long way toward adding reward for close-up risk, especially against sync-killers.

3. Dramatically increase base health and shields. A biotic soldier should have some survivability, and the only vanguard with this at present is the krogan.

4. Sync-kill immunity. If none of the above three materialize, this would at least allow Vanguards to play the match as a Vanguard beyond Gold wave 7 and Platinum wave 1. At present, you play as a careful power-deprived adept in order to live (Krogan is the exception).

Dear BioWare multiplayer staff: are you paying attention? There are a lot of career vanguards giving a lot of helpful suggestions in this thread, beyond even something like fixing the game-breaking vanguard glitch. These suggestions would be a lot easier to implement, AND probably reduce instances of the glitch because charge wouldn't be firing after we've just died from the latest BS stunlock or no-barrier-charge-landing.

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Approaching? Stardusk's Shadow Video shows it being on equal or even superior standing to non-krogan 'guards.

The Shadow is superior compared with any Vanguard in the game except the Krogan. Not to mention its possible to "charge" through walls and no glitches(at least in my case) even if not hosting. And outright killing elite enemies like phantoms even on Platinum.

If the last sword evolution would work with Shadow Strike like its supposed to, it would be even possible to kill phantoms without a melee kill before and using strenght enhancers.

And a weapon damage bonus of 40 percent when Cloaking.

No contest. Its not even close. And even the Krogan is just a mobile, durable decoy while others do the killing.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 août 2012 - 06:41 .

[Pedro Costa]

tonnactus wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Approaching? Stardusk's Shadow Video shows it being on equal or even superior standing to non-krogan 'guards.

The Shadow is superior compared with any Vanguard in the game except the Krogan. Not to mention its possible to "charge" through walls and no glitches(at least in my case) even if not hosting. And outright killing elite enemies like phantoms even on Platinum.

If the last sword evolution would work with Shadow Strike like its supposed to, it would be even possible to kill phantoms without a melee kill before and using strenght enhancers.

And a weapon damage bonus of 40 percent when Cloaking.

No contest. Its not even close. And even the Krogan is just a mobile, durable decoy while others do the killing.

The bigger problem - one bigger than the design issues with the high risk/ low reward we currently face, is that too many people in this community either think Vanguards are perfectly fine or rejoice that they see less and less vanguards in their lobbies or both at the same time.
With this sort of widespread community sentiment, what little hope there was for a look at Vanguards becomes even dimmer.

And honestly, when it comes to bronze/silver, ANY class is OP, balancing shouldn't be factored for those difficulties because they aren't all that hard, to tell the truth.
My full-blast nova, single-target-charge 'guard rips anything apart in Silver with extreme ease (sans banshees, and even them are only a matter of waiting for the right window of opportunity) and the times I die are due to Charge-related bugs or trying to revive a fallen teammate.
Hell, if it weren't for the objectives I'd almost forget I have an eviscerator and a phalanx because I don't need them most of the time.
When I take him for a Gold match, however, I die. Horribly. And frequently. And shamefully.

Also, in my opinion, there is a point after which something is so OP that no matter how many buffs you give it, it won't get anymore OP than what it already is. And that, in my opinion, is the Bronze/Silver (emphasis on the difficulty) Novaguard - you can buff its charge damage and impact aswell as Nova's as much as you want, you can also give it more health and shields to your heart's content, but it won't change a single thing in Silver games because you're already so OP on those difficulties that it won't make a damn difference.
Only on Gold and Platinum will you notice the difference.

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

The bigger problem - one bigger than the design issues with the high risk/ low reward we currently face, is that too many people in this community either think Vanguards are perfectly fine or rejoice that they see less and less vanguards in their lobbies or both at the same time.

I guess its rejoice for people who play as snipers(on lower difficulties). But now they are Power Spammers that are way worse for them(Electric and Biotic Slash, Smash)

[TehMerc]

tonnactus wrote...
I guess its rejoice for people who play as snipers(on lower difficulties). But now they are Power Spammers that are way worse for them(Electric and Biotic Slash, Smash)

Poetic justice :3 

Though it seems there's some growing movement to make that a non issue too (which I don't particularly care about, phase disruptor gameplay is always more fun and challenging than biotic slash).

I really like how the vanguard threads are probably the most level headed here on BSN 

[Silasqtx]

http://social.biowar.../index/13390254

Ill just leave this here, it's a Slayer bugfix request or little buff, but the Biotic Charge discussion might be of your interest.

Modifié par Silasqtx, 11 août 2012 - 08:46 .

[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Sadly, neither evolution does what it is suppose to in higher difficulties. Area Charge isn't anywhere near close to stagger phantoms and F&D Charge is anything but single-target murder (unless you're refering to the Vanguard itself =P)

....

why shouldn't we be able to achieve something approaching their lethality with ours? Instakilling mooks isn't instakilling bosses or even phantoms, but if we're at least staggering them that's, itself, enough survivability that it's worth considering, IMO.

We all agree staggering is a must for the playstyle Vanguards are suppose to have.

Ah, I meant with a severe buff to base force/damage, sorry. My argument was basically that a solid fix to Charge could involve choosing between staggering several phantoms/pyros/brutes at once and getting full barrier back (4b and 6b), or OHKing a single trooper or staggering a Prime/Atlas/Banshee (4a, 5b and 6a). For boss staggering and mook 1-shotting I would genuinely consider sticking with 50% barrier. I'm not sure how you'd accomplish that, though, without making a redundant setup with two identical +force/damage evolutions. Simply adding a bluesplosion booster in 6a, for example, wouldn't help anyone but the smashguard do solo damage vs bosses.

tonnactus wrote...

The Shadow is superior compared with any Vanguard in the game except the Krogan. Not to mention its possible to "charge" through walls and no glitches(at least in my case) even if not hosting. And outright killing elite enemies like phantoms even on Platinum.

Oh, man, you know what I would give to Charge through walls? That is some risk/reward in action, there. Taking the risk that there's a whole spawn waiting for you on the other side that you didn't see, gaining the benefit of true unfettered mobility in return. Also, imagine all the "press X to do nothing and die horribly" bugs it would fix.

Modifié par Quething, 11 août 2012 - 09:10 .

[tonnactus]

Quething wrote...

Oh, man, you know what I would give to Charge through walls? That is some risk/reward in action, there. Taking the risk that there's a whole spawn waiting for you on the other side that you didn't see, gaining the benefit of true unfettered mobility in return. Also, imagine all the "press X to do nothing and die horribly" bugs it would fix.

Yes,its strange. At least for a non programmer it seems that Shadow Strike is more complex then Biotic Charge and yet i have yet to encounter glitches with that.
And by the way, the fact that a tech ability can do something that a biotic power could not(but should) seems wrong.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 août 2012 - 10:05 .

[Pedro Costa]

tonnactus wrote...
Yes,its strange. At least for a non programmer it seems that Shadow Strike is more complex then Biotic Charge and yet i have yet to encounter glitches with that.
And by the way, the fact that a tech ability can do something that a biotic power could not(but should) seems wrong.

You aren't alone. Ever since I unlocked my slayer and shadow I've been asking what were they smoking when they designed an infiltrator better at the vanguard's job than the vanguard they released alongside it (and pretty much every other vanguard).

[MP-Ryan]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
Yes,its strange. At least for a non programmer it seems that Shadow Strike is more complex then Biotic Charge and yet i have yet to encounter glitches with that.
And by the way, the fact that a tech ability can do something that a biotic power could not(but should) seems wrong.

You aren't alone. Ever since I unlocked my slayer and shadow I've been asking what were they smoking when they designed an infiltrator better at the vanguard's job than the vanguard they released alongside it (and pretty much every other vanguard).

This is why my Slayer will be permanently retired the moment I unlock the Shadow.

[Quething]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

You aren't alone. Ever since I unlocked my slayer and shadow I've been asking what were they smoking when they designed an infiltrator better at the vanguard's job than the vanguard they released alongside it (and pretty much every other vanguard).

Well, they weren't going to let the player version of the phantom be a vanguard. Phantoms are girls, after all, and vanguards are a big tough soldier class. Girls can't be tough tanky soldiers, they can only be frail casters and glass canon rogues.

(But vanguards aren't actually even tough or soldier-y anyway, you say? Nonsense, vanguards have immunity frames and are invulnerable and awesome learn to play etc etc.)

[Dabal Hayat]

I've read again and again the pages of this bright discussion, and thought deeply to a simple solution to our problems as vanguards. Sadly, I found none, but something intriguing came to me.

One of our biggest problem as Vanguards, is that we don't have any true reward for our play style: if you aren't capable of staggering an elite enemy that you charged, you're in a lot of problem, period; and if you aggro an enemy It will follow you to kingdom come, even if you charge to the other side of the map.
So why don't reset the "aggro status" of vanguards with every charge? Or even give the vanguards a little frame (1.5 second at most) in which you are "untargettable"? Not invulnerable, just ignored by the enemies in your close proximity.
This way, you could survive to elite mooks, charging and recharging even if you can't stagger them, giving them a "death by a thousand cuts" sort of treatment, with a little more impunity.
It's dirty trick I know, one that I imagined observing our opposite, the infiltrators, but what do you think of it?
As Infiltrators do with every tactical cloak and/ or relocation, It will improve our survival, changing very little of the game mechanic and the "feeling" of this class, or so I think...

Modifié par Dabal Hayat, 12 août 2012 - 11:27 .