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[Pedro Costa]

Quething wrote...
But vanguards aren't actually even tough or soldier-y anyway, you say? Nonsense, vanguards have immunity frames and are invulnerable and awesome learn to play etc etc.

Actually, I was going to say the human female vanguard is a girl, but that works too.

[Fortack]

Dabal Hayat wrote...

One of our biggest problem as Vanguards, is that we don't have any true reward for our play style: if you aren't capable of staggering an elite enemy that you charged, you're in a lot of problem, period; and if you aggro an enemy It will follow you to kingdom come, even if you charge to the other side of the map.
So why don't reset the "aggro status" of vanguards with every charge? Or even give the vanguards a little frame (1.5 second at most) in which you are "untargettable"? Not invulnerable, just ignored by the enemies in your close proximity.
This way, you could survive to elite mooks, charging and recharging even if you can't stagger them, giving them a "death by a thousand cuts" sort of treatment, with a little more impunity.

I'm afraid that would completely break the game

The problem with ME3's Charge is not the power itself but the stupid and pointless cooldown vs weight mechanic and the nightmare called Nova. ME2's Charge was perfect b/c it had a fixed cooldown of 5-6 seconds which made it fairly easy to balance. ME2 Charge gave the player enough room to maneuver and go crazy but punished mistakes severely. The double damage multiplier for shooting enemies at point blank range more than made it worth the risk.

Unfortunately, Bioware removed both features and since it's now possible to use Charge every couple seconds (and use Nova's invincibility) they cannot add more invulnerable frames without making Vanguards completely invincible simply through spamming powers.

(Near) instant aggro-management is also not an option b/c there cannot be more than 8 enemies in play at any given time (thanks to the ancient console hardware). When it becomes possible to control aggro it will be ridiculously easy to lockdown pretty much all enemies indefinitely hence why they designed "random" aggro mechanics.

[Dabal Hayat]

^^ Yes, you're right, maybe I was overconfident in my idea; but I don't think we should dismiss it so soon.
If the problem is "invulnerable frames", it would interest only Novaguards, and considering how fragile they are at the moment and the poor performances in gold and Platinum, why not?
Tradeoff- wise, could maybe the "aggro reset" be reduced only to the area affected by the biotic charge? This way, only your CQC survival should be improved (I think...): Ravager and Nemesis will kill you as usual.
If the problem is instant kills, I didn't say anything about them: you charge at your risk as usual, but with "aggroreset" their frequency is overall diminished.
As I said, It would be a dirty trick, but "aggroreset" is something which already exists: Infiltrator use it and abuse it every time they cloak. So why should be so difficult to give this effect to the vanguards too, if adequately changed and adapted? Either way, It seems to me Vanguards need a patch badly...

Modifié par Dabal Hayat, 12 août 2012 - 11:37 .

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

DarkLord_PT wrote...

You aren't alone. Ever since I unlocked my slayer and shadow I've been asking what were they smoking when they designed an infiltrator better at the vanguard's job than the vanguard they released alongside it (and pretty much every other vanguard).

Well, they weren't going to let the player version of the phantom be a vanguard. Phantoms are girls, after all, and vanguards are a big tough soldier class. Girls can't be tough tanky soldiers, they can only be frail casters and glass canon rogues.

(But vanguards aren't actually even tough or soldier-y anyway, you say? Nonsense, vanguards have immunity frames and are invulnerable and awesome learn to play etc etc.)

"Durability on a vanguard? Why, that's madness! What's next, should these adept rejects we've come up with carry shotguns as well?"
- some random developer

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the soldier aspect of this supposed hybrid class was lost on the developers long ago. Although come to think of it, all three of the hybrid classes have conceptual issues: sentinels should be biotic/engineer hybrids, but most function more like soldiers with tech (and only occassionally biotic) powers, not to mention that they have a soldier's health and usually some form of armor to boot. And then infiltrators are meant to be soldier/engineer hybrids, yet they have engineer durability, and aside from grenades or mines, almost exclusively tech powers.

What separates the vanguard is that unlike other hybrids (and as always, the Krogan), it cannot be used as it's meant to be used because of its poorly designed signature power, and there's no compensation for this weakness. The game as a whole is a shooter; close range/melee combat is designed to be fairly rare and only situationally viable. Vanguards are supposed to be the exception to this rule, but they just aren't. And ironically, of the other classes with soldiering abilities (the soldier itself and the infiltrator), the infiltrator, who should realistically be third on the list, is actually number one. Even most sentinels come out way ahead of vanguards thanks to their durability.

So while we all understand that the classes can't be ideal builds without eliminating the variety that different races bring and throwing gameplay balance way out of whack, they simply missed the boat on vanguards. And if each new character they make is any indication, the problem is growing rather than shrinking, indicating that the developers either don't understand, don't care, or both. And if they're simply unable to fix it, well, that's on them, too--they made the game.

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

Quething wrote...
But vanguards aren't actually even tough or soldier-y anyway, you say? Nonsense, vanguards have immunity frames and are invulnerable and awesome learn to play etc etc.

Actually, I was going to say the human female vanguard is a girl, but that works too.

The Asari also count as a female. But still isnt the toughest of all Asari because thats the Justicars role...(an adept with up to 80 percent damage reduction)

Modifié par tonnactus, 12 août 2012 - 07:23 .

[tonnactus]

disappearingone11 wrote...
 Even most sentinels come out way ahead of vanguards thanks to their durability.

Not only Sentinels. The Asari Justicar has far better surviability then most Vanguards. She can ignore multiple grenades in her bubble because the damage reduction on this class can reach 80 percent without the need to be close to the enemy.
And she has a higher  encumbrance then the Vanguard...

Or the Salarian Infiltrator with Energy Drain...

Modifié par tonnactus, 12 août 2012 - 07:28 .

[disappearingone11]

tonnactus wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...
 Even most sentinels come out way ahead of vanguards thanks to their durability.

Not only Sentinels. The Asari Justicar has far better surviability then most Vanguards. She can ignore multiple grenades in her bubble because the damage reduction on this class can reach 80 percent without the need to be close to the enemy.
And she has a higher  encumbrance then the Vanguard...

Or the Salarian Infiltrator with Energy Drain...

Well, if they'd wanted to make the Slayer into a proper phantom, he should've been given the phantom's barrier bubble thingy. It wouldn't help the class as a whole, but it would certainly solve a lot of his problems.

I just keep thinking about the DR options they gave the Shadow, it being common sense and all that she'd be quite vulnerable after performing a shadow strike, and wonder why this concept's application for vanguards either never dawned on the minds of the developers or was dismissed for some inconceivable reason. It truly baffles me.

Edit: about the Asari Justicar, consider the N7 Fury as well. Annihilation field with shield drain gives them a continuous energy drain effect against anything with shields, plus deals constant passive damage and can be detonated for massive AoE. This actually encourages and rewards an adept for close combat, something no vanguard--even the Krogan--gets. It makes about as much sense as the Justicar's higher encumbrance threshold.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 13 août 2012 - 12:54 .

[MP-Ryan]

Guys, gals... we've got it all wrong... apparently there's nothing wrong with vanguards.

Our mistake. <_<

People talking like this without actually playing the class at higher difficulties really aren't helping.

Modifié par MP-Ryan, 13 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[Quething]

Haha, that thread. Gamemako is my favorite person on this forum right now.

[disappearingone11]

MP-Ryan wrote...

Guys, gals... we've got it all wrong... apparently there's nothing wrong with vanguards.

Our mistake. <_<

People talking like this without actually playing the class at higher difficulties really aren't helping.

Most of that thread is painful to read, but it does end nicely. Props to you and Gamemako for (hopefully) driving some sense into these people.

Now, if only we can get this message across to some people who can and might actually do something about the problem...

[Pedro Costa]

MP-Ryan wrote...
People talking like this without actually playing the class at higher difficulties really aren't helping.

That's why I said our greatest problem is the community...
Still, props to you and Gamemako.

I mean, seriously, Starbrat forbid that the ONLY class, and I mean the ONLY class, whose sole PURPOSE is to be in the enemies face all the time have a damage output and tanking capacity actually rewarding for such a risk.

Infiltrators who can be at a map's distance, and given their sniper bonuses is what they're suppose to do?
Oh, let's give them an aggro debuffer, enhanced mobility, absurd damage output and objective capability (tactical cloak) and decent enough health and shields so that they can be in the enemie's face shooting them and getting away with it.
Also, just to troll the vanguards a bit more, let's throw an infiltrator that does a vanguard's job better than any vanguard (sans Krogan).

Not to mention power synergies... I'm still waiting for a warp-guard.

[tonnactus]

DarkLord_PT wrote...


Not to mention power synergies... I'm still waiting for a warp-guard.

Actually the Cerberus Vanguard can prime with Smash.(that is better then warp well in every way)

[Pedro Costa]

tonnactus wrote...
Actually the Cerberus Vanguard can prime with Smash.(that is better then warp well in every way)

I know, but it isn't the same thing. =P

[Gamemako]

The Smashguard used to be able to prime and detonate effectively, but it doesn't work so well with the 8-second cooldown. A bit annoying, if you ask me.

The think I think DarkLord wants is to be able to prime target near enemies and begin his attack with a detonation. The Asari can kinda do this with Stasis, especially if you choose the Bonus Power evo there (30% chance to have no cooldown -- drop the Stasis and off you go). Issues there, though, are (1) no detonation bonuses and (2) doesn't affect pyros or bosses. Would be nice to get a Vanguard who primes a boss at a distance, then pounces forth and proceeds to rip him limb from limb with his bare hands, then beats a nearby Banshee to death with his severed limb. So metal.

[Tronar]

RecoonHoodie wrote...

Biotic Charge damage increased from 250 to 400
Biotic Charge force increased from 500 to 850
Biotic Charge evolution 5-A weapon damage bonus increased from 15% to 40%
Biotic Charge evolution 5-B power damage bonus increased from 25% to 35%
Human Vanguard base health and shields increased to 600/600
Ex-Cerberus Vanguard base health and shields increased to 600/600
The same goes for N7 Slayer,Asari Vanguard
Drell Vanguard barrier increased from 250 to 450
Drell Adept barrier increased from 250 to 325
Fixed a bug when Biotic Charge wont activate when the button is pressed, leaving you with no bariers and soon on the ground bleeding.
Fixed a glitch when you can charge after dying and start flying around the map.
/thread

When I see the thing UP ^ there in balance changes, the world will be better place

One important item (glitch introduced with the Earth DLC) is missing:

Fixed a bug when Biotic Charge was successful but didn't refill your shields, leaving you with no barriers and soon on the ground bleeding.

Apart from that: +1000

Tronar

[Tronar]

There is not much that I can add that hasn't been said already in this thread.

And I have to fully agree. While I enjoy playing the Novaguard on Silver a lot (he is even a great Solo Character on that difficulty) nearly always ending on top of the leaderboard because of the speed and efficiency to kill enemies, I am always more of a liability on Gold. You just get shot down too fast, even with Shield Booster and Cyclonic Mods, and if it's not the three-shot-kill Marauder taking you down, it's definitely one of the two "minor" Vanguard glitches.

How often did I stand in front of an enemy with my cooldown ready, nothing between him and me, hammering the Y-button and nothing happened until my shields and health were gone and my teammates had to revive me?

And since the Earth DLC to make matters worse, I successfully charge a biotic primed Atlas, I hear the biotic detonation, the health of the Atlas goes down significantly confirming my successful charge but unfortunately the game "forgets" to refill my Barrier making me killed by the next shot from the Atlas or any other close enemy.

It's just too risky and I don't like to make my squadmates quit whatever they are doing just to pick me up out of a bad charge in the midst of a group of enemies. But just to sit behind cover shooting your Carnifex and spamming Shockwave can't be the answer either.

So I keep enjoying my Novaguard on Silver and take other Characters for the higher difficulties. Which is sad, because Vanguards are so much fun!

Tronar

[Tronar]

Dabal Hayat wrote...

I've read again and again the pages of this bright discussion, and thought deeply to a simple solution to our problems as vanguards. Sadly, I found none, but something intriguing came to me.

One of our biggest problem as Vanguards, is that we don't have any true reward for our play style: if you aren't capable of staggering an elite enemy that you charged, you're in a lot of problem, period; and if you aggro an enemy It will follow you to kingdom come, even if you charge to the other side of the map.
So why don't reset the "aggro status" of vanguards with every charge? Or even give the vanguards a little frame (1.5 second at most) in which you are "untargettable"? Not invulnerable, just ignored by the enemies in your close proximity.
This way, you could survive to elite mooks, charging and recharging even if you can't stagger them, giving them a "death by a thousand cuts" sort of treatment, with a little more impunity.
It's dirty trick I know, one that I imagined observing our opposite, the infiltrators, but what do you think of it?
As Infiltrators do with every tactical cloak and/ or relocation, It will improve our survival, changing very little of the game mechanic and the "feeling" of this class, or so I think...

If this idea would effectively protect you from an insta-grab by an Atlas or Banshee, I'd say: +1000 :happy:

Tronar

[Pinoy GAT86]

Achire wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Novaguard is amazing and the only "buff" it needs is a bugfix so you can play without hosting.

On Platinum? Please do write a guide.

lol

[Quething]

Gamemako wrote...

The Smashguard used to be able to prime and detonate effectively, but it doesn't work so well with the 8-second cooldown. A bit annoying, if you ask me.

The think I think DarkLord wants is to be able to prime target near enemies and begin his attack with a detonation. The Asari can kinda do this with Stasis, especially if you choose the Bonus Power evo there (30% chance to have no cooldown -- drop the Stasis and off you go). Issues there, though, are (1) no detonation bonuses and (2) doesn't affect pyros or bosses. Would be nice to get a Vanguard who primes a boss at a distance, then pounces forth and proceeds to rip him limb from limb with his bare hands, then beats a nearby Banshee to death with his severed limb. So metal.

But if a vanguard could self-detonate on any target, he or she would be as good a caster as an adept!  How would that be fair, considering our massive weapon boosts also make us good soldiers oh wait.

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...
But if a vanguard could self-detonate on any target, he or she would be as good a caster as an adept!  How would that be fair, considering our massive weapon boosts also make us good soldiers oh wait.

Charge is a great self-detonater. It gets me blown up all the time.

[Hyperglide]

I don't even bring a Human Vanguard to Gold anymore. Even hosting. It's the quickest way to get a vote kick in the game. Pretty pathetic really. They are actually viable on Gold vs. Cerberus. Especially helping to take down and stunlock Phantoms.

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

For the most part I find the Human Vanguards are super powerful characters. I fully spec out the melee and as long as I don't face off against a Banshee or something, I usually do alright on Silver, even running solo (Gold get's tricky due to lack of health, and Platinum = laugh and/or cry)

I think the fixer would be to replace the melee fitness evolution with power recharge speed; have the melee upgrades a part of 'both' fitness evolutions. And on top of that, a 3 second total damage/sync kill immunity after charge would really help vs the bosses. (maybe have options to further that time through the Charge evolution)

[Pedactor]

Drellguard:

Remove Pull.

Add Reave.

Community = very very happy.

BioWare = Can substantiate why they are made out of cardboard.

[Quething]

If you replace Pull with Reave there's no reason to ever play drelldept.

I'd take Reave over Cluster nades in a heartbeat, though. On a one-to-one basis it's a much less powerful ability, but it synergizes a dozen times better with the rest of the kit.

Modifié par Quething, 14 août 2012 - 05:18 .

[tonnactus]

Pedactor wrote...

Drellguard:

Remove Pull.

Add Reave.

No, because the Drell Adept would be pointless then as is the Cerberus Adept(Singularity isnt bad but outclassed by his other powers and fitness)

Removing Cluster Grenades and adding Reave would be acceptable.