851 réponses à ce sujet

[mastero87]

BW should just start getting biotic tanks into the upcoming MP DLCs. We'e got enough charging vanguards, and they are cool, spectacular and everything, I want to see something different now. Unique characters with unique abilities and usability. I know I can find it right now as well: the novaguard style of Human and Phoenix Vanguards, the heavy melee specialist krogan or the defensive stasis bubble+headshot with paladin asari, but I would also welcome some fresh addition and the end of reliance on charge to keep yourself alive (or to commit suicide for that matter).
Characters in ME2 were cool because they were so unique, it was almost impossible sometimes to tell their class. I would like to see that in MP.
I want a batarian biotic and combative tank (and they can use biotics indeed, look at the sentinel's shockwave).
I want to see humans putting a strongly weakening warp on an enemy and shoot them with adrenaline shot.
I also want a Thane-like character. A sniping biotic, which would in fact rather make him an adept class.
For drell vanguards I want to have stronger martial artist (heavy) melee with reave on the dude.
For the ex-evil Phonexes smash and lash could have been dropped (leave it the adept) and use Dominate and grenades instead (with more health of course).
While I love charging, I would love to see the vanguards from ME1, and totally support the aim of this dicussion.

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

?

Thane shares with Zaeed the highest possible +weapon damage on an ME2 companion. His loyalty power is a non-biotic ammo power. He also has warp and throw, strong biotic powers. He is a combat/biotic hybrid. He is a vanguard.

Garrus in ME1 shares pretty much the entire Infiltrator power suite, including pistol and sniper proficiency and a strong +weapon damage passive and a nearly full set of tech powers. Garrus in ME2 shares with other soldiers the combat power of conc shot and +weapon damage passives, and his loyalty power is a non-biotic ammo power. He also has overload and a massive +power damage passive, strong engineer traits. He is a combat/tech hybrid. He is an infiltrator.

My contention with Thane being a vanguard is that high weapon damage isn't the defining aspect of a soldier, especially when it's limited to one weapon (his backup is a SMG). The shredder ammo actually helps the argument more, but because of the way ammo powers work in ME3 MP, it kind of becomes moot. Is he more like a vanguard in ME2 than the closest representation you can make of him as a Drellguard in ME3 MP? Yes, I'll grant that. But does he have the durability and close range combat skills needed to function as a vanguard? Other than the martial art melee skills, I'd say no.

As far as Garrus is concerned I pretty much agree with you. The reason why I say he doesn't neatly fit any class (over all three games) is that he's a lot more durable and has more weapon skills than a typical infiltrator. Basically, he's a soldier heavy version: he has just enough tech skill to be an infiltrator. But if you compare him to a ME3 MP infiltrator of any kind, it's not a good match. He actually fits the Turian sentinel model best: just replace warp with concussive shot and you more or less have a Garrus clone.

That depends entirely on what you think a vanguard is. If you go by the name alone, yeah, they ought to be on the front line, but if you go by the name alone there's no reason they should be biotic. (Also, if you go by name alone, an infiltrator should use pistols and shotguns, not sniper rifles, and a sentinel should be a highly mobile range fighter, not a hybrid or a tank. Going by name isn't a solid plan is what I'm saying.) If you, however, follow the thematic turns the class has taken through the series, a vanguard is no more and no less than a combat/biotic hybrid. In ME1 the strongest possible vanguard was the Marksman/Singularity vanguard, a ranged warhorse who used biotics to lock down a room and shoot everyone in it with massively boosted weapon fire. In ME2, Charge made us one-trick ponies but we were still biotic/combat hybrid ponies; optimal gameplay required a combination of a biotic power and biotic-oriented passives with a pair of ammo powers, plus Reave for stuff on balconies. In no game were we required to be frontliners; in all three games we can walk out of the prologue with proficiency in sniper rifles and never touch a shotgun and still completely rip things up. However, in all three games we are required to spec in both combat and biotic powers to be at all effective.

You know, except MP, for whatever reason. 

Anyway, Charge is awesome and yeah, it's a signature move; that doesn't mean it needs to be ubiquitous. Singularity is signature for adepts, but only two of them have it. Tech armor is signature for sentinels, but only half of them have it.  Adrenaline Rush is signature for soldiers, but only one of them has it. Drones are signature for engineers, but no two of them have the same version of the power and two have nades instead. Companion-wise, the only squadmates who have their class signature power are Liara and Tali. (And sort of Kasumi, but not really.) There's no reason for the more ranged, fragile vanguards like asari and drell to be chained to Charge and thus built around closing to melee, when they could easily have a different version of the power that complimented a distance fighter, or even a different power entirely.

I'm not just going by the name, I'm going by the concept. Now, our concepts may differ, and I grant you that the incarnation of vanguards has changed a lot over the course of the series. I also don't think it should be a rigid definition for all races, especially not something like, "Vanguards should be forced to charge, or else they're not vanguards." My main point here is that as a combat/biotic hybrid, a vanguard should have the ability to fight (and survive for more than two seconds) at close range, using a combination of combat and biotic abilities. BC is (at least conceptually) a great way to do this, which is why I think that all vanguards should not only have it, but be able to viably use it. This is not to say that they should be forced to rely upon it, or that all vanguards should use it with the same frequency or effectiveness, only that it should be viable as something other than a defensive "oh crap, I need my barriers back" survival move. What I want BC to do is encourage vanguards to situationally engage the enemy at close range rather than stick to cover and fight as weak adepts or even weaker soldiers. Obviously, the move needs a lot of work in order to accomplish this, and vanguards also need supplements in other areas if they are to survive using it. But my concept of a vanguard is not an adept who can charge, or a soldier with poor survivability and weak biotics, and that, unfortunately, is essentially what we have in ME3 MP. I want more balance, and for all non-Krogan vanguards, this means moving away from biotics and closer to weapons/melee combat. I don't want them all to be 50/50, I just want them to be in that ballpark.

All that said about vanguards, I agree with you about the other classes being inconsistent with their own signature moves. I'd even say that the non-hybrid classes don't really have signature moves, just some abilities that are more common than others. The other classes have problems, too: the sentinel especially has significant design flaws as a tech/biotic hyrbrid. My main reason for singling out vanguards is that even though they do have a consistent signature move, the move is broken, and the problems arising from this are not compensated for elsewhere. Sentinels are tech heavy, and for some strange reason have a soldier's durability (arguably more for those with armor). Despite this, with the exception of the Vorcha and Paladin (generally speaking, the newer ones tend to be more flawed) sentinels still have useful biotics. I really can't say the same for most vanguards regarding their soldier combat abilities.

Adepts aren't more powerful than vanguards or sentinels. The strongest human biotic ever known is a vanguard, and she can compete with an asari adept in biotic prowess. Charge is supposed to be one of the most difficult and complex biotic techniques you can do, right up there with Singularity (and I suppose Reave, though even the ME3 version doesn't make sense lore-wise). As far as the in-universe lore is concerned, a biotic is a biotic is a biotic, and how much of their free time they put into tinkering with electronics or dicking around on the shooting range has no bearing on how sophisticated their mass fields can be. Nothing locks a vanguard out of the most powerful biotic powers other than cold hard game balance, and cold hard game balance would definitely permit a Reave drellguard.

I'm not really arguing from a lore standpoint, or at best, I'm doing so very loosely. That an adept is not inherently more biotically gifted than a vanguard or sentinel is true. However, it does follow that most biotic hybrids would not be as strong as pure adepts, if for no other reason than a lack of focus or practice. And of course when it comes to gameplay, this is outright necessary to keep hybrids from being OP. So to me, something like reave on a vanguard, while certainly not impossible, is less likely/common from a lore standpoint, and is impractical from a gameplay one.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 15 août 2012 - 01:45 .

[tonnactus]

mastero87 wrote...

BW should just start getting biotic tanks into the upcoming MP DLCs. We'e got enough charging vanguards, and they are cool, spectacular and everything, I want to see something different now.

A power that restores or doubles Barrier,increases the recharge of it and increase movement speed.
Comparable to Shield Boost in the first game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 août 2012 - 11:05 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Actually that is kind of interesting... a charge that lets you stack barrier buffs, the more you charge, the more barrier you build up.

[MP-Ryan]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

I'd also like to not instantly lose my barrier right after a charge

This.  A thousand times, this.

[Gamemako]

Working on some suggestions over on balance group. The usual hardcore maths involved. I'm undecided: should Manguard charge-> full nova spam rival weapon damage? On one hand, it's a high-risk maneuver and very much a vicious cycle, so it seems like it should be powerful, but... given the force and multi-target ability involved, I don't know. There's a fine line there. What do you guys think? How should Charge->Nova compare to firing a gun?

[Achire]

I don't think pure Charve/Nova spam should be quite as high considering you can still shoot a gun and proc tech bursts while doing it. And it does hit 3 targets.

[Imp of the Perverse]

Gamemako wrote...

Working on some suggestions over on balance group. The usual hardcore maths involved. I'm undecided: should Manguard charge-> full nova spam rival weapon damage? On one hand, it's a high-risk maneuver and very much a vicious cycle, so it seems like it should be powerful, but... given the force and multi-target ability involved, I don't know. There's a fine line there. What do you guys think? How should Charge->Nova compare to firing a gun?

Another option would be to just add a weapon damage boosting power to each vanguard. Soldiers get adrenaline rush, marksman, and devastator mode. Infiltrators get tactical cloak, hunter mode, tactical scan, and prox mines. Vanguards, supposedly another combat class, get ammo powers in ME2 and ME3 single player.

So replace the human vanguard's shockwave and the drellguard's pull with adrenaline rush. Replace the asari's cluster grenades with marksman. Give the krogan battlemaster devastator mode instead of barrier. I wouldn't mind trading any one of those for biotic charge on a phoenix. I'm not really sure about the slayer, I haven't really used him. Without BC to replenish shields, the disrupter is a liability, and you probably wouldn't want to get rid of either of the signature powers.

Most of those would be pretty overpowered since the additional vanguard powers are mostly more impressive than the additional soldier powers, but they could be nerfed a bit for vanguards.

Modifié par Imp of the Perverse, 16 août 2012 - 06:51 .

[Seerezaro]

I find vanguards okay with the exception of the vanguard glitch. Which hinders any real use of the class.

Various glitches like, charge not working because the enemy decided to move his elbow are what plague the class really.

All the Vanguards rely on charge one way or another, Charge is buggy, thus unreliable. Banshee's are the bane of a vanguard's existence but thats another thing entirely.

[Quething]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

Another option would be to just add a weapon damage boosting power to each vanguard. Soldiers get adrenaline rush, marksman, and devastator mode. Infiltrators get tactical cloak, hunter mode, tactical scan, and prox mines. Vanguards, supposedly another combat class, get ammo powers in ME2 and ME3 single player.

So replace the human vanguard's shockwave and the drellguard's pull with adrenaline rush. Replace the asari's cluster grenades with marksman. Give the krogan battlemaster devastator mode instead of barrier. I wouldn't mind trading any one of those for biotic charge on a phoenix. I'm not really sure about the slayer, I haven't really used him. Without BC to replenish shields, the disrupter is a liability, and you probably wouldn't want to get rid of either of the signature powers.

Wouldn't help.

Partly because the balance group is primarily concerned with changes that can be made with the weekly C.bin tweaks, and changing class powers is patch work. But mostly it's a bad idea because just slapping random powers together based on "biotics" or "combat" is how the poor vanguard ended up in this mess in the first place, from ME2 on out.

When you're designing a class you have to think not just about what abilities are neat, but also how those abilities will work together. Charge and Nova is a great combination. There's no interference from cooldown, the area stagger provides extra protection for a post-Charger in melee range, the loss of shields plays nicely with the ability to instantly restore them. Charge and Shockwave is a poor combination. The cooldown on Shockwave is relatively long and the range is relatively short, so it puts you in danger and then denies you the ability to escape. It can go through walls, but so can Nova, so it offers the novaguard very little. But Charge and Adrenaline Rush is a worse combination still; I think the only possible way to be worse would be to give a class both Charge and Marksman. Locking Charge out for the duration of a weapon damage buff is crazily counterproductive and dangerous.

Conc shot on a novaguard wouldn't be terrible - people still wouldn't spec it but it would at least offer slightly more than Shockwave - but if you're looking to really push the theme, Inferno or Frag nades would be best. The drellguard could do well with Proxy Mine or Arush/Marksman in place of Charge, but not in place of Pull (or clusters). Battlemaster's already got Carnage, which doesn't suck as much as the community claims, but Inferno nades there instead would admittedly have worked better.

All that said, if you're patching the game anyway, just add a base weapon damage boost to Charge. It's inane that there isn't one already. 50-80% for the duration of the hidden damage reduction, depending on how much you want to play with the Weapon Synergy evolution.

Gamemako wrote...

How should Charge-Nova compare to firing a gun?

Well... which gun, and which Charge and Nova? I would say that Area Charge plus Area Nova can be middling in damage (though not force), but a power-synergied Heavy Charge plus Force&Damage/Recharge/Pierce Nova should at least strip barriers as easily as Chain Overload (average dps for both sets of targets with the same base cooldown, anyway). You're certainly taking a higher risk than an engie when you use it.

Modifié par Quething, 16 août 2012 - 08:08 .

[Imp of the Perverse]

Quething wrote...

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

Another option would be to just add a weapon damage boosting power to each vanguard. Soldiers get adrenaline rush, marksman, and devastator mode. Infiltrators get tactical cloak, hunter mode, tactical scan, and prox mines. Vanguards, supposedly another combat class, get ammo powers in ME2 and ME3 single player.

So replace the human vanguard's shockwave and the drellguard's pull with adrenaline rush. Replace the asari's cluster grenades with marksman. Give the krogan battlemaster devastator mode instead of barrier. I wouldn't mind trading any one of those for biotic charge on a phoenix. I'm not really sure about the slayer, I haven't really used him. Without BC to replenish shields, the disrupter is a liability, and you probably wouldn't want to get rid of either of the signature powers.

Wouldn't help.

Partly because the balance group is primarily concerned with changes that can be made with the weekly C.bin tweaks, and changing class powers is patch work. But mostly it's a bad idea because just slapping random powers together based on "biotics" or "combat" is how the poor vanguard ended up in this mess in the first place, from ME2 on out.

When you're designing a class you have to think not just about what abilities are neat, but also how those abilities will work together. Charge and Nova is a great combination. There's no interference from cooldown, the area stagger provides extra protection for a post-Charger in melee range, the loss of shields plays nicely with the ability to instantly restore them. Charge and Shockwave is a poor combination. The cooldown on Shockwave is relatively long and the range is relatively short, so it puts you in danger and then denies you the ability to escape. It can go through walls, but so can Nova, so it offers the novaguard very little. But Charge and Adrenaline Rush is a worse combination still; I think the only possible way to be worse would be to give a class both Charge and Marksman. Locking Charge out for the duration of a weapon damage buff is crazily counterproductive and dangerous.

Conc shot on a novaguard wouldn't be terrible - people still wouldn't spec it but it would at least offer slightly more than Shockwave - but if you're looking to really push the theme, Inferno or Frag nades would be best. The drellguard could do well with Proxy Mine or Arush/Marksman in place of Charge, but not in place of Pull (or clusters). Battlemaster's already got Carnage, which doesn't suck as much as the community claims, but Inferno nades there instead would admittedly have worked better.

All that said, if you're patching the game anyway, just add a base weapon damage boost to Charge. It's inane that there isn't one already. 50-80% for the duration of the hidden damage reduction, depending on how much you want to play with the Weapon Synergy evolution.

I'm not sure why you missed it, but the combat powers I chose do synergize with the vanguards I put them with. Adrenaline rush has an evolution that allows you to cast an additional power while active, similar to tactical cloak. It also boosts durability and melee damage, two things that greatly benefit vanguards. The major thing is that it greatly improves weapon damage, giving you something you can use against bosses.

Marksman synergizes poorly with biotic charge, but much better with stasis. For mooks you can stasis bubble -> charge. For higher level mooks like hunters, phantoms, and marauders you can stasis bubble -> marksman. For bosses you can use marksman.

Devastator mode on a kroguard is a no brainer, but would definitely need to be nerfed.

For a novaguard, your bases are already pretty well covered. Smash is great against bosses, and lash works on everything else. Some additional durability would be good though, so maybe something like fortify. Fully evolved it's only a 20% cooldown penalty, and provides a power damage & force bonus, as well as a substantial melee bonus for when you lash things into melee range.

Also biotic charge does have a weapon damage boost evolution, its just pathetic (15%.)

Modifié par Imp of the Perverse, 16 août 2012 - 09:20 .

[Achire]

The next thread (Gamemako's suggestions) is going to need a massive disclaimer about all this useless "Charge, Reave, Hunter Mode, Tactical Cloak" crap. They are never going to change the skills. Stop posting that stuff. It's a waste of everyone's time.

[disappearingone11]

Achire wrote...

The next thread (Gamemako's suggestions) is going to need a massive disclaimer about all this useless "Charge, Reave, Hunter Mode, Tactical Cloak" crap. They are never going to change the skills. Stop posting that stuff. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Agreed. As much as I'd like to see some skills swapped out or removed altogether from some vanguards, it would be better to be realistic about what BW might actually do, and a skill overhaul for the majority of a class isn't a realistic expectation. Not that they're guaranteed to fix anything, but if they do, it will be in the form of tweaking existing powers, and/or possibly some base stats. The only way we'll ever get better built vanguards is if they give us new ones that happen to be built right, and considering how badly the two latest ones were made, I don't see this happening.

[Imp of the Perverse]

disappearingone11 wrote...

Achire wrote...

The next thread (Gamemako's suggestions) is going to need a massive disclaimer about all this useless "Charge, Reave, Hunter Mode, Tactical Cloak" crap. They are never going to change the skills. Stop posting that stuff. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Agreed. As much as I'd like to see some skills swapped out or removed altogether from some vanguards, it would be better to be realistic about what BW might actually do, and a skill overhaul for the majority of a class isn't a realistic expectation. Not that they're guaranteed to fix anything, but if they do, it will be in the form of tweaking existing powers, and/or possibly some base stats. The only way we'll ever get better built vanguards is if they give us new ones that happen to be built right, and considering how badly the two latest ones were made, I don't see this happening.

It's a forum thread about the vanguard class, not a meeting with the developers to discuss the weekly balance changes. I'm not even seeing the bioware logo next to the thread title so Bioware hasn't entered the discussion. Might as well keep the topic interesting by looking at all possibilities.

Also Bioware has an interest in keeping people interested in the multiplayer as long as possible. Revitalizing old classes is one way to do so, and I can almost guarantee it takes fewer resources to rearrange the powers on an existing class than it does to code up entirely new abilities and
develop the new models and animations that are required by a new character.

[Quething]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

I'm not sure why you missed it, but the combat powers I chose do synergize with the vanguards I put them with.

No, they don't. Adrenaline Rush lets you use one power once in four seconds, if you're on rank 6, for which you give up a big chunk of its survivability. You could Nova once and spend the next three and a half seconds wasting your cooldown bonus and dying because you burned your shieldgate and can't pop more invulnerability frames, or you could Charge once, and then stand around like a chump for four seconds losing all your synergy bonuses and basically reducing Charge to a shield-refill, which Adrenaline Rush does for you already if you simply put six points into the right evolution instead of burning 21 on a different power (not that you've got anywhere else to put them now that you've made Nova pointless, since you now have to choose between using it or getting into position to do so). Or you could Charge and then wait on your cooldown for Arush, but that brings us back to dying.

Marksman, as you say, at least synergizes with Stasis, but that just means no one would ever, ever spec Charge. Its defensive benefits would be useless to a character who can actually do weapon damage from distant cover, and its dubious offensive benefit as a trigger for Stasis explosions isn't worth the 21 points when neither primer nor trigger has an explosion modifier.

Marks/Lift nades/Stasis would be a really good kit, but it would also be crazy overpowered, and require BioWare to make a vanguard without Charge, which is only marginally more likely than them actually changing one that already does. Which, as Achire rightly points out, is a probability of zero.

However, Achire, it's not a waste. It bumps the thread 

[Imp of the Perverse]

Quething wrote...
No, they don't. Adrenaline Rush lets you use one power once in four seconds, if you're on rank 6, for which you give up a big chunk of its survivability. You could Nova once and spend the next three and a half seconds wasting your cooldown bonus and dying because you burned your shieldgate and can't pop more invulnerability frames, or you could Charge once, and then stand around like a chump for four seconds losing all your synergy bonuses and basically reducing Charge to a shield-refill, which Adrenaline Rush does for you already if you simply put six points into the right evolution instead of burning 21 on a different power (not that you've got anywhere else to put them now that you've made Nova pointless, since you now have to choose between using it or getting into position to do so). Or you could Charge and then wait on your cooldown for Arush, but that brings us back to dying.
 

The problem that this is trying to address is dealing with boss level enemies. Neither charge or nova will prime a target for a BE, so shockwave is of no use as a detonator against bosses, and deals little damage. Against crowds of unshielded enemies, with the lift evolution, it can prime for either charge or nova, but charge -> nova spam will already tear through crowds of unshielded enemies, so it isn't bringing much to the table. Substituting adrenaline rush for it lets you take a step back from bosses and use one of the lighter high power weapons like a hurricane or piranha to take them down without risking an instakill, no matter how you choose to evolve it.

If you take the shield boost evolution of AR, yes, it does recharge your shields, but only a very small amount, and it does it at the beginning of activating AR. If you're fighting against a boss, you're pretty much always going to want full shields before activating AR, since you're going to want to sustain fire for as long as possible. You then activate AR and start firing, which also puts you into the line of fire. Having biotic charge to regen 50% to 100% of your shields at any point during your AR barrage lets you continue firing for longer, getting you better mileage out of the power. If you told me I could swap biotic charge for concussive shot on a human soldier, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

For the drell, cluster grenades substitute for nova. They're AOE with no cooldown similar to nova, but deal better damage and don't deplete your shields. The tradeoff is the limited ammunition. Similarly to shockwave, pull is useless against bosses, so again AR would be an improvement.

Modifié par Imp of the Perverse, 16 août 2012 - 12:46 .

[Pedro Costa]

Achire wrote...

I don't think pure Charve/Nova spam should be quite as high considering you can still shoot a gun and proc tech bursts while doing it. And it does hit 3 targets.

IMO, it depends on the Charge and Nova.
Area Charge + Half-Blast? No.
Heavy Charge and Full-Blast? I think it should strip shields/barrier/armor very quickly. You're expending all your barrier, therefore putting your very survivability on the line, after all. Either that, or buffing the Power Recharge upgrade so it doesn't take 11.11s to ramp-up.

[disappearingone11]

Imp of the Perverse wrote...

disappearingone11 wrote...

Agreed. As much as I'd like to see some skills swapped out or removed altogether from some vanguards, it would be better to be realistic about what BW might actually do, and a skill overhaul for the majority of a class isn't a realistic expectation. Not that they're guaranteed to fix anything, but if they do, it will be in the form of tweaking existing powers, and/or possibly some base stats. The only way we'll ever get better built vanguards is if they give us new ones that happen to be built right, and considering how badly the two latest ones were made, I don't see this happening.

It's a forum thread about the vanguard class, not a meeting with the developers to discuss the weekly balance changes. I'm not even seeing the bioware logo next to the thread title so Bioware hasn't entered the discussion. Might as well keep the topic interesting by looking at all possibilities.

Also Bioware has an interest in keeping people interested in the multiplayer as long as possible. Revitalizing old classes is one way to do so, and I can almost guarantee it takes fewer resources to rearrange the powers on an existing class than it does to code up entirely new abilities and
develop the new models and animations that are required by a new character.

In principle I agree with you and I do enjoy discussing all of these things, but if it doesn't ultimately lead to some meaningful changes in the game, then I have to admit that it limits my interest. Not that I want to censor people or anything like that, nor do I have high expectations that developers read these threads (and even if they do and agree with some of our propositions, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have the authority to take action). I would simply like to see more potentially productive discussion and less ideological dreaming.

Of course BW wants to keep our interest--if they didn't, we wouldn't have received three (free) MP DLC's. My point about what I think they're likely to do is also based on those DLC's, though: each one has brought six new characters into the game (at current count we have almost double the original number). But at the same time, once a character is released, nothing as drastic as rearranging powers has ever been done. So based on that trend, it does seem more likely that we'll get new ones before they alter existing ones in any significant way.

Modifié par disappearingone11, 16 août 2012 - 03:37 .

[Quething]

disappearingone11 wrote...

In principle I agree with you and I do enjoy discussing all of these things, but if it doesn't ultimately lead to some meaningful changes in the game, then I have to admit that it limits my interest. Not that I want to censor people or anything like that, nor do I have high expectations that developers read these threads (and even if they do and agree with some of our propositions, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have the authority to take action). I would simply like to see more potentially productive discussion and less ideological dreaming.

I don't know, does it have to be dreaming? I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not really asking for any of this stuff. I'm just talking about design principles, and the ways vanguards don't currently align with them, and the ways that they could. If nothing else, you can't fix Charge without knowing why it doesn't work as-is, and some of that comes from the way it fails to work in concert with other powers. Saying "Inferno nades would work way better on a novaguard than Shockwave because of cooldown and redundancy issues" isn't going to get us the nades, but it might get someone thinking about why vanguards, novaguards most of all, are so reliant on charging every cooldown, whether that's intended behavior to begin with, and if not, how to change Charge to diminish that reliance (survivability and buff duration being the logical beginning). And there's always the distant possibility it could even get us a new vanguard that works. I mean, we got Nova, right? Which is the first ability in the game to actually really compliment Charge, and is remarkably similar to ideas people were kicking around in the ME2 forum based on that same discussion of what Charge actually does, why it didn't play nicely with the vanguard's other abilities, and what sort of ability would fit. We're not totally hollering into the void here. 

[disappearingone11]

Quething wrote...

I don't know, does it have to be dreaming? I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not really asking for any of this stuff. I'm just talking about design principles, and the ways vanguards don't currently align with them, and the ways that they could. If nothing else, you can't fix Charge without knowing why it doesn't work as-is, and some of that comes from the way it fails to work in concert with other powers. Saying "Inferno nades would work way better on a novaguard than Shockwave because of cooldown and redundancy issues" isn't going to get us the nades, but it might get someone thinking about why vanguards, novaguards most of all, are so reliant on charging every cooldown, whether that's intended behavior to begin with, and if not, how to change Charge to diminish that reliance (survivability and buff duration being the logical beginning). And there's always the distant possibility it could even get us a new vanguard that works. I mean, we got Nova, right? Which is the first ability in the game to actually really compliment Charge, and is remarkably similar to ideas people were kicking around in the ME2 forum based on that same discussion of what Charge actually does, why it didn't play nicely with the vanguard's other abilities, and what sort of ability would fit. We're not totally hollering into the void here. 

I said "dreaming" because I just don't see any skill changes happening, but maybe that's not the best word to describe it because, again, I don't have any fundamental disagreement with proposals like what you mention above, and they certainly could be implemented. It absolutely does make sense for all characters to have at least a pair of powers that complement each other, and while vanguards aren't the only ones suffering from a lack of these, they generally are poster childs for the problem. To some extent it's to be expected from all hybrid classes because the very concept calls for a character having different types of powers that don't (unless by chance) complement each other. But since so many hybrids are heavily skewed towards one class or another, for so many to have this issue is baffling--I'd even say inexcusable on the part of the developers. And to top it off, it just keeps getting worse with every wave of new characters we get. I think it all comes down to BW expecting an unrealistic level of cooperation to compensate: the formula works if player X primes, player Y detonates, and so on. But playing a game of MP (even on platinum) doesn't force people into particular roles and playstyles like raiding in a proper MMO or the like, so unless you're always playing with friends, a lot of people simply won't cooperate because they don't have to and/or don't care.

This is how I would ideally solve this problem for vanguards: first and foremost, fix charge so that it does respectable damage (more force and useful power synergies) and doesn't leave you a sitting duck; I'm not a big fan of invincibility frames beyond protecting you from sync insta-kills, but some kind of short term, massive DR is called for. Secondly, because BC is technically a biotic ability and can detonate BE's, all vanguards should have some biotic ability that can prime. Some do have these, but most are either only situational useful (Asari stasis) or not well suited to be primers (Phoenix's smash because of its short range and slow animation). I'm not going to go into detail on how to fix them all, but most do need to be fixed. Thirdly, those without any combat abilities need at least one (Phoenix comes to mind again). And lastly, a relatively small but large enough to make a difference boost to base health/barriers (maybe 20-25%) for all non-Kroguards. I'm tempted to say that even they could use a little boost for platinum, but as long as it's not too difficult to enter rage mode, I'd leave them as is.

[Pedro Costa]

disappearingone11 wrote...
And to top it off, it just keeps getting worse with every wave of new characters we get. I think it all comes down to BW expecting an unrealistic level of cooperation to compensate: the formula works if player X primes, player Y detonates, and so on. But playing a game of MP (even on platinum) doesn't force people into particular roles and playstyles like raiding in a proper MMO or the like, so unless you're always playing with friends, a lot of people simply won't cooperate because they don't have to and/or don't care.

I can attest to this. I am pretty much forced to always play PUGs and no one there gives a damn about priming or at least be in a team-oriented mindset.
No character can rely on their team because of this so they have to be somewhat self-sufficient (infiltrators are on the top of self-reliance, like they are on top of most everything game-related, objectives, support, damage, survivability), but vanguards suffer the most because of this expectation of a cohesive team in PUGs.

And honestly, I don't like forcing my friends to play as a certain class/kit just because I want to roll a vanguard.

As for needing a primer, I once suggested making rank 4a (Force&Damage) include a primer so players could have an evolution for priming and another for detonating(Area Charge), this way the player could chose what would fit their playtsyle/power loadout best.
Per example, a Novaguard could F&D Charge->primer->Nova->Detonate. No longer would there be a need for power buffs because the biotic blast would compensate the poor DPS/Force of each power.
Also, 6a, instead of 25% chance of no cooldown, could instead put Charge on a different cooldown, that way you can use a power immediately after/before Charge, enhancing synergy.

[Pedactor]

The ideal primer for all but the Kroguard is Reave since all but the Kroguard need damage reduction.

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

As for needing a primer, I once suggested making rank 4a (Force&Damage) include a primer so players could have an evolution for priming and another for detonating(Area Charge), this way the player could chose what would fit their playtsyle/power loadout best.
Per example, a Novaguard could F&D Charge->primer->Nova->Detonate. No longer would there be a need for power buffs because the biotic blast would compensate the poor DPS/Force of each power.
Also, 6a, instead of 25% chance of no cooldown, could instead put Charge on a different cooldown, that way you can use a power immediately after/before Charge, enhancing synergy.

That would definitely work for the novaguard, and the principle of choosing whether BC works as a primer or detonator would allow for more variety when it comes to the secondary biotic power. But having a reliable no cd or very short one would be crucial to vanguards using it to prime, so I think that option only works with both of your suggestions in place. For instance the Phoenix who might use BC to prime and then smash to detonate would really need that smash to be ready to go, or else he'd probably be screwed. Of course with sufficient DR and/or increased base health and barriers, he could hold out for an extra few seconds. But regardless, it's a good idea.

Pedactor wrote...

The ideal primer for all but the Kroguard is Reave since all but the Kroguard need damage reduction.

It is ideal, but imo perhaps a bit too much so. For one we don't want to give all non-Krogans the same primer ability (at least as long as BC remains universal, which I think it should). But more than that, I still think that reave combined with a fixed version of BC would be overpowering; I'm all for the DR, but I'd rather see it built into the BC mechanics, and whatever other biotic ability you give to a vanguard should remain secondary to BC in terms of damage and general strength when used by itself. Hence, I'd favor something like warp instead.

[MAGlKARP]

I don't like the idea of giving vanguards a reliable primer because the role of biosplosion spam is already filled by adepts. As we've already discussed, we want vanguards to be biotic soldiers, not just adepts with charge.

Therefore I think that there should be a combat ability that synergises with charge. Here's my idea: taking inspiration from the ability that compliments charge the most, nova, I believe that the ability should not have a cooldown, but should use up shields. Using this template, my idea is a version of adrenaline rush that, instead of restoring shields, uses up shields and gives the 2x weapon damage bonus up close from mass effect 2 for a short duration.

This would put the vanguards' damage output at the level of infiltrators, but with the very heavy risk/reward factor that we want from vanguards.

I'm sure there's some flaw to this idea, so please post your thoughts!

[Pedro Costa]

disappearingone11 wrote...
For instance the Phoenix who might use BC to prime and then smash to detonate would really need that smash to be ready to go, or else he'd probably be screwed.

He could also safely prime with Smash and then detonate with area charge
As I said, one evo could prime while the other could detonate in order to fit the character's other powers.

MAGlKARP wrote...

I don't like the idea of giving vanguards a reliable primer because the role of biosplosion spam is already filled by adepts. As we've already discussed, we want vanguards to be biotic soldiers, not just adepts with charge.

Therefore I think that there should be a combat ability that synergises with charge. Here's my idea: taking inspiration from the ability that compliments charge the most, nova, I believe that the ability should not have a cooldown, but should use up shields. Using this template, my idea is a version of adrenaline rush that, instead of restoring shields, uses up shields and gives the 2x weapon damage bonus up close from mass effect 2 for a short duration.

This would put the vanguards' damage output at the level of infiltrators, but with the very heavy risk/reward factor that we want from vanguards.

I'm sure there's some flaw to this idea, so please post your thoughts!

Right now I'm more worried with fixing the characters we have already over thinking of new ones, to tell the truth... 
Not that you aren' t right, you are, we need a more soldiery feel, but if we could first find ways to fix the current vanguards with minimal effort on BioWare's part to implement (increases the chances to have them do it, imo) said changes, I believe we'd be better served right now.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 18 août 2012 - 03:02 .