851 réponses à ce sujet

[Teratoid]

Alcy80 wrote...

I'm not sure what other Vanguards do during hacks, uploads and escorts but the asari with stasis and a carnifex is invaluable - esp against Cerberus with all those pesky Phantoms. Plus lift grenades are handy too.

I find Lift Grenades to be indispensable with the AV, not just "handy".  But I agree, AVs are easily the best Vanguard class, at least for the type of gameplay I enjoy. She's also one of the most flexible. You can go for a light-weight Stasis sniper with a hand cannon, or you can go heavy, with a Claymore-Grenadier build. Either build works tremendously well.

Back to the main issue, I wouldn't look at Platinum as a qualifier of anything. That mode is just one long elite spam, and invalidates a lot of classes that otherwise very good on Gold.

As to the Vanguard's role: they're actually good at crowd control, all of them. Even the Drell. But if the player is not wise enough NOT to charge into a slightly spread out group, or even a Banshee that's still electrified, they don't have my sympathy for dying quickly. Being able to control a crowd of anything in the game at close ranges would invalidate other classes.

Modifié par Teratoid, 02 août 2012 - 05:54 .

[oblong74]

i'm down with the Drellguard.

Cluster grenades for the packs. Pull/charge for the lone mook. charge/flip away/repeat for holding aggro from boss. Failing all of those snipe with Carnifex til its safe to wade in.

[bondiboy]

You have to host or only join games with friends in the same local region with good connections.
Do not charge Bosses unless they are low on defence. Use grenades and a Talon (with ULM if you are worried about CD) with AP for Guardians and Bosses. If you are an AV then phantoms are not a problem. Playing the Vanguard well is all about situational awareness and using charge at the right time. Not a class I would take into Platinum

[Arppis]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

After a charge, vanguards need major damage mitigation of melee, stagger/interrupt immunity, and close range weapons fire and a very brief invulnerability to sync kills. If everything else stays the same, the class won't change much on lower levels (good vanguards are already nigh-immortal below gold) while making them practical for gold and platinum for regular players.

A large buff to FORCE (but not damage) for Charge and nova would also be welcome. And I do mean a LARGE buff to it.

Why won't this make them overpowered? As long as the buffs are balanced appropriately, the Vanguards should still favor light single weapons, making their damage output stay about the same. They will stay excellent mook slayers on lower levels, while having a role as aggro sponge on higher difficulties (rather than a god class damage dealer)

The Kroguard is pretty close to what the vanguard class should be. Vanguards DO NOT belong in cover. A vanguard in cover should be the equivalent of a low powered soldier.

Something like this. I'd like to see large buff to Force too. Especialy as you fly against people with lightspeed and they just knock back a bit. It's silly that they don't get knocked down or anything.

Vanguard should be stronger for sure. And I like the "synckill" immunity suggestion. It's a good one. I don't like it when I get synckilled by Phantom in middle of charge, without even getting a melee hit on me first.

I love Human Vanguard, because it makes me feel like someone who uses their biotics a lot. I pair the class with a shotgun and usualy shoot in between Nova's and charges, works pretty well.

Modifié par Arppis, 02 août 2012 - 07:32 .

[Elder_Jefferson]

Yeah, the vanguard human has deteriorated from beast to bum. He's all about hit-and-run tactics, and pray that you don't <get shot, get stabbed, get grabbed, trip>

I'm thinking increase their shields by 25% (which is stupid not to have insane shields if you plan on hurling yourself at the feet of your enemy) and off set this slightly with a slightly longer cooldown.

[SimulatedSnowman]

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Vanguard could be a better class. There are only a few people who can really play this class with out spamming the crap out of their powers. I think I like the asari the most out of this class. I don't use charge and I put the GPS on her and use the Grenade V gear bonus.

Soooo spamming grenades is better than spamming powers?

[Home run MF]

Shepard is the only Novaguard

[Ziegrif]

I actually see the Vanguard as a 2 way see-saw.
You can either play it like a soldier or an adept.
Or go hybrid and find a balance or dip to the other side.
I myself dip myself to umm... off the bridge and into the mile long canyon.
I'm trying to figure out Viable ways to play without using BC.
This has made some cracked up builds and utilities.
For example am going to try and use the Krogan vanguard as a better built stagger resistent Krogan soldier. And I already molded my Asari Vanguard into something akin to the Krogan Sentinel but with faster movement and an ''OH S***'' power I.e Stasis.
Going to see if I can make a Shockwave/Nova Vanguard work aswell.

[Pedro Costa]

Destructo-Bot wrote...
After a charge, vanguards need major damage mitigation of melee, stagger/interrupt immunity, and close range weapons fire and a very brief invulnerability to sync kills. If everything else stays the same, the class won't change much on lower levels (good vanguards are already nigh-immortal below gold) while making them practical for gold and platinum for regular players.

A large buff to FORCE (but not damage) for Charge and nova would also be welcome. And I do mean a LARGE buff to it.

 
I'd actually love some more damage output from Nova, 700dmg for ALL of your barriers is ridiculously low as the game now stands. When the game came out, it was AWESOME, now? It's severely underpowered compared to powers like Smash, characters like the Destroyer or most weapons, even.

Of course, a large impact force buff for both powers nothing short of mandatory for higher difficulties.

RamsenC wrote...

In ME2 there was a 2x damage bonus for being point blank. In ME3 that no longer exists and Vanguard got nothing to compensate. Charge should give a 40% damage bonus, like cloak, for 4 seconds after charging along with the DR boost. This would help boss killing, but will still be risky due to sync kills. Otherwise Vanguard is really no better than an Adept or Engineer with a shotgun, which is just wrong.

Right now Adrenaline Rush gives a 70% weapon damage bonus (or 50% with 40% DR), with a shield boost, and you activate it at no risk to yourself. Charge needs something to compete with that. 

 
Problem is, Charge already gives 50% DR for 4 seconds after a Charge and even that isn't enough.
It needs more... something on the damage mitigation side. Soldiers and Infiltrators, the "weapon" classes (which Vanguards should also be since they are adept/soldier hybrids, but sadly, aren't), have ridiculous weapon buffs, but don't need as heavy damage mitigation because they can be at almost any distance they want, vanguards are, by definition, forced to be upfront and in the enemies' faces.

Towards sync kills, the only ones that actually risk ruinning my sanity are phantoms, keep some distance? Palm blaster for great justice. Get too close (ie. Charge)? Have a very real risk of dying mid-charge or immediately after. Manage to get too close and not insta-dying? Here, have some stunlock, THEN you can insta-die. (of course, extreme hyperbole, but gets the point across)

Banshees? As long as you can see them (ie. they don't sneak up on you) you just have to pay attention to when she uses Nova or Warp - it's safe to charge. But given, after Phantoms, they are the most annoying to deal with.
Atlases? Wait for them to start shooting and get out when they start melee'ing.
Brutes? As long as you don't stand there staring at them, you're fine.

Destructo-Bot wrote...

If the vanguard became a true tank his/her role should become BAIT during hacks and such to keep all the enemies away from the objectives.

 
I already am in Silver matches, actually. Draw aggro -> 
have enough things after me?  Yesssss! -> Nova -> eviscerator to the face -> charge --> repeat.
Only thing that is a bit bothersome are Banshees and the occasional Phantom I didn't see creeping up from behind me. Geth stunlocks can also be very inconvenient.

-Preie- wrote...
Another issue we aren't mentioning, is how do you fellow Vanguards assist with hacks, uploads, and escorts? You cannot do much, right?

 
Right, that's why in Silver/Bronze I prefer getting out there and draw aggro. During gold tho, I usually just sit behind cover and go grab a drink because my super soaker Phalanx (don't have heavy hitter pistolsleveled up enough as too not interfere with Charge's cooldown) just doesn't cut it and my Evi's reach isn't high enough.
Of course, sometimes, I'm lucky and get to Nova something that my teammates didn't notice.

Ziegrif wrote...

I actually see the Vanguard as a 2 way see-saw.
You can either play it like a soldier or an adept.
Or go hybrid and find a balance or dip to the other side.
I myself dip myself to umm... off the bridge and into the mile long canyon.
I'm trying to figure out Viable ways to play without using BC.
This has made some cracked up builds and utilities.
For example am going to try and use the Krogan vanguard as a better built stagger resistent Krogan soldier. And I already molded my Asari Vanguard into something akin to the Krogan Sentinel but with faster movement and an ''OH S***'' power I.e Stasis.
Going to see if I can make a Shockwave/Nova Vanguard work aswell.

A vanguard without Charge isnt a vanguard, it's an adept. Not saying I don't like my Chargeless Krogan Battlemaster, just that I play Vanguards because of Biotic Charge, and Novaguards in particular because of the Charge/Nova synergy - fly like a bullet, hit like a grenade... sigh, if only I had the damage/impact equivalent to those things instead of just the animations...

Also, the Slayer having to pick between health and sword damage sucks. Hard. It can have a huge melee damage and the animations for it are nothing short of beautiful, but becomes so fragile that spending any amount of time actually meleeing (so the investment was worth it) is suicidal.

[Elder_Jefferson]

SimulatedSnowman wrote...

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Vanguard could be a better class. There are only a few people who can really play this class with out spamming the crap out of their powers. I think I like the asari the most out of this class. I don't use charge and I put the GPS on her and use the Grenade V gear bonus.

Soooo spamming grenades is better than spamming powers?

This. Why do you goofballs hate on power/tech users? If you have a tool that works, then use it!

[godlike13]

I honestly think all the Vanguards except the Krogan need a buff to their Heath and Shields. And/or maybe even a lower base cooldown and increased damage on charge.
Now don't me wrong, they are a lot a fun to play, but they are suppose to be high risk, high reward. The problem is though the risk out weighs the reward on them. They're more like high risk, marginal reward.

Modifié par godlike13, 02 août 2012 - 02:55 .

[Elder_Jefferson]

godlike13 wrote...

I honestly think all the Vanguards except the Krogan need a buff to their Heath and Shields. And/or maybe even a lower base cooldown and increased damage on charge.
Now don't me wrong, they are a lot a fun to play, but they are suppose to be high risk, high reward. The problem is though the risk out weighs the reward on them. They're more like high risk, marginal reward.

True. The N7 Shadow is the new vanguard. Cloak/shadow strike/pirhana,reager,claymore - awesome stuff right there

[-Preie-]

I have yet to unlock the Asari Vanguard or the Shadow. I will have to try them out.

But the issues of lag and survivability plus instant kills still stands.I am pretty sure I still got grabbed by a banshee and she wasn't glowing. That is when to charge right? And last night I got murdered by a phantom (well stun-locked then grabbed) and someone with a mic said, "[explicative] vanguard." It is true that when I play this class.. I feel more of a hindrance and it made me slightly sad.

[disappearingone11]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

A vanguard without Charge isnt a vanguard, it's an adept. Not saying I don't like my Chargeless Krogan Battlemaster, just that I play Vanguards because of Biotic Charge, and Novaguards in particular because of the Charge/Nova synergy - fly like a bullet, hit like a grenade... sigh, if only I had the damage/impact equivalent to those things instead of just the animations...

Also, the Slayer having to pick between health and sword damage sucks. Hard. It can have a huge melee damage and the animations for it are nothing short of beautiful, but becomes so fragile that spending any amount of time actually meleeing (so the investment was worth it) is suicidal.

The Krogan is the only one I feel truly safe charging with, especially with my barrier up. With everyone else except the novaguards, charge is primarily a defensive move, whether to save myself or a squadmate, or to fast travel to safety by targetting a distant enemy. And there's just something fundamentally wrong with that.

Re: choosing between survivability and melee damage, the Slayer really suffers because choosing health/shields doesn't just gimp melee attacks, but most vanguards have the same basic problem when it comes to melee--something they should excel at. Take the Ex-Cerberus guy for instance: his heavy melee is a potentially devastating AoE attack that can be great to use immediately after charging a group (it makes a nice filler while waiting on cd's). However, it hits like a wet noodle if you pour everything into health, which you're basically forced to do. So, your choice is to either charge in, tickle the bad guys, and then run into hiding, or charge in, land a crushing melee attack, and then get gunned down by that one cannibal or assault trooper you missed. And after pondering which of these two crappy outcomes is better, you realize that your best option is C: find some cover, draw your pistol or SMG, and accept the fact that you really are just an adept in disguise.

[Lokiwithrope]

Excuse me, but I would like to bring up an idea, since everybody is already talking about vanguards. How would a batarian vanguard work?

[Pedro Costa]

godlike13 wrote...

I honestly think all the Vanguards except the Krogan need a buff to their Heath and Shields. And/or maybe even a lower base cooldown and increased damage on charge.
Now don't me wrong, they are a lot a fun to play, but they are suppose to be high risk, high reward. The problem is though the risk out weighs the reward on them. They're more like high risk, marginal reward.

When you compare Charge to Shadow Strike? Yes, it does need a lower cooldown and higher damage output, but these two things aren't as worrisome as the lack of impact force to stagger at least Platinum phantoms.

And to whoever Shadow's the new vanguard... I pretty much am forced to agree.
Their survivability is far greater than any Vanguard (except krogan) thanks to Tactical Cloak, Shadow Strike is a stupidly powerful, quickly rechargeable version of Biotic Charge (8 vs 10 base cooldown. SERIOUSLY, BIOWARE?) and can almost carry any freaking weapon they damn well want.

edit:
@
disappearingone11  
I know what you mean about feeling safe charging with a Krogan, it's really preference on my part.
About Charge being mostly a defensive move - yes, it is extremely worrisome that a power that is supposedly offensive is better use on the defense. Novaguards only get away with it because of Nova-cancel, and that, too, is fundamentally wrong.

The melee tree really needs to be rethought for Vanguards or their base health/shields greatly buffed so taking melee becomes at least close to viable.

Modifié par DarkLord_PT, 02 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[TazMonkey2011]

I agree i got the N7 Slayer with this weekends operation and i feel like he is way too squishy i thought the whole point of charge was to draw aggo allowing your teammates to kill from afar. it sucks that i have to use charge more to rebuild my shields than to set up a melee or take out a mook crowd. they need a buff big time but are a lot of fun on bronze and silver.

[disappearingone11]

-Preie- wrote...

I have yet to unlock the Asari Vanguard or the Shadow. I will have to try them out.

But the issues of lag and survivability plus instant kills still stands.I am pretty sure I still got grabbed by a banshee and she wasn't glowing. That is when to charge right? And last night I got murdered by a phantom (well stun-locked then grabbed) and someone with a mic said, "[explicative] vanguard." It is true that when I play this class.. I feel more of a hindrance and it made me slightly sad.

Lag + Banshees/phantoms = insta-kills galore. There's nothing you can do about that except host matches with a stable connection.

The Asari vanguard is better than most, but she's still far more biotic than soldier. That's not at all to say she's ineffective: stasis is a great ability and allows for some nice biotic explosions when followed up with charge. And of course, lift grenades pretty much make those explosions on their own. The point is simply that she's really just a slight variation of the standard Asari adept.

The Shadow is an oddball. She does play much more like a vanguard than an infiltrator-- think of her as a tech variation of the Slayer. She also has some DR options in the Shadow Strike tree, though at a hefty cost to damage dealt. However, don't mistake that as an invitation to try to melee everything: shield/health max is 775. She's designed for hit and run attacks.

[Jwashinobi]

May question is that the default weapon for vanguard is a shotgun so why are almost all shotguns to heavy to use if you want to use if you want to use your powers?
The Evo tree should have a reduce that keeps the recharge time at 200 hundred when only carrying a shotgun.

[-Preie-]

I agree Jwashinobi. We have become pistol wielding adepts. If we carry something to heavy, our survivability drops. Does that make much sense?

If a rogue equips heavier armor... he would get a penalty, right? But he gets added armor to circumvent the situation. Instead, we become weak and frail. A design flaw

[Oich]

this link will help with he N7 vanguard. Damage reduction from standard melee lets you tank small(ish) groups of enemies using the charge > melee > melee > melee (repeat) combo.

No idea how to make the other (non-krogan) vanguards work. (never even had the inclination to learn nova-cancel. I was much more interested in reaving between novas for team mates.)

[Pedro Costa]

Jwashinobi wrote...

May question is that the default weapon for vanguard is a shotgun so why are almost all shotguns to heavy to use if you want to use if you want to use your powers?
The Evo tree should have a reduce that keeps the recharge time at 200 hundred when only carrying a shotgun.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that, but maybe a base carry weight of something like 40 or 50 instead of 30.

[Bwnci]

Aside from the "Vanguard glitch" I would argue the Vanguards are fine and varied. I use the Asari, Krogan, Phoenix (more on that later), and the new N7.

For the Asari I would highly recommend shield boosting equipment to survive in close quarters. With the charge set to "Power Synergy" and the Lift Gernades set for damage she is a wrecking ball. You just swing in and take out crowds of enemies with this setup. I have this tried and tested for Gold but would probably not recommend it for Platinum. In Platinum you will have to focuse on what your team isn't.

Vanguards are guardians, you should aim to kill or distract certain enemies so your team can funkzhuN (my gametag ). Stay lightweight with a Disciple or something similar and you never need to die. Charge whenever you can, to stay in the fight at all times. Deal with the troops so your team can fight the bosses, or take on the bosses to distract them away from the team.

The Krogan Vanguard is the tank. Ignoring" Carnage" you can set him up entirely for health and recharge speed and even on Platinum you will never die. Put him up front and noone needs to get hurt, the ultimate damage sponge will eat everything and hog all the attention so the team can blow them away.

Right, now the Phoenix Vanguard. Tried him for the first time today after the nerf to "Smash" and they've killed him tbh. It was well established that Smash needed to be faster to balance the high risk nature of the power and now they've undone it.

Before I would have recommended charging in with shield and melee equipment. Heavy meleeing with each charge and then cleaning up with Smash. Incredible crowd control, with the charge and then the melee staggering and killing most enemies you would now have the Power Synergy in play to wipe out all survivors. It's far too slow a process now. I'd still recommend charge and melee but do your smashing solely through walls and cover, at least for the most part. I put a Talon in his hands to kill Guardians and chip away health during cooldowns. But mostly it's because I can attach a Melee Stunner to really aid the build.

Finally the "N7 Slayer". Lots of fun but I would still only really recommend the Krogan for Platinum unless you have a really competent team. His light melee is Godlike and for the most part, all you need. What makes him so fun though is his versatility. With all troopers or any poor B with his back to the wall you can charge in and slash him to pieces with the light melee. It lunges you forward while you disappear, simultaneously dealing a load of damage as you avoid it. For very large groups and bosses you can pound enemies with the Phase Disruptor three times (with Efficient Blast) and then charge in to do it again.

I set my Disruptor to do Armour damage, so I find that with the new Pistol I can mess up everything. Big bosses with shields and Barriers only need 3 - 4 shots from the pistol before I can wreak them my Disruptor, and once again I can attach a Melee Stunner to it

It's important to really evaluate what a character is capeable of when you build them. Keep your eyes open for debuffs and synergies to produce a build that compliments itself. If you can get your chosen power paths to come full circle your onto a winner.

Still the Vanguard glitch is a long standing stain on the class that effects the best of them. Seriously overdue for a fix, I have owned this game since the first week of its release and that glitch has always been a problem. It's the first I ever encountered and it took me months to understand it. I don't know what extra force or shields will do. People simply need to stop dying as they're charging. Invulnerability frames are one thing, but Warp and acid damage is another. Prehaps Our shields should instantly return the moment the power is activated as oppose to when we make contact. The glitch is the only real issue with the class in perfect honesty

Modifié par Bwnci, 02 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[Pedactor]

The problem I have with the Vanguard class is that they are completely one dimensional.

They all start with a point in Biotic Charge so your build is basically limited to 3 in Biotic Charge or 6 in Biotic Charge then moving from there.

But that makes them pretty bland. You pretty much blow Biotic Charge on Cooldown and it's not necessarily ever dictated offensively above Silver. It's pretty much just to refill barriers.

They need some major work, in my opinion, it's by far the blandest class.

And the Slayer and Smashguard, well. I don't even know.

It seems like the only two Vanguards with really clear design intention and synergy between powers are the Novaguard and the Kroguard.

Everything else doesn't work that well.

How I'd fix them?

Drellguard and Asari guard both get Reave and the AoE reave application can be AoE detonated by the AoE evolution of Biotic Charge. Drellguard loses Pull. Asari loses Stasis or Lift Grenades. Both need the DR of Reave.

Smashguard and Slayer get Invulnerability Frames. Slayer loses Phase Disruptor, gets Reave. Weapon evolution of Biotic Charge removed from both and get melee bonuses. Both get Turian-level base shields and health.

Novaguard gets a major damage upgrade on Nova and has highest damage Biotic charge.

Still not ideal, but workable.

Really, the slayer shouldn't have Biotic Charge. He should have something more sword-based and to provide variation.

The only Vanguard that is interesting at all is the Asari and that's because with a talent reset, you can rip all her points out of Biotic Charge and use Stasis and Lift Grenades with a less than 100% recharge bonus using a Harrier and really blow up the world.

Modifié par Pedactor, 02 août 2012 - 06:35 .

[RamsenC]

The weight system definitely does not work well for Vanguards. We need to use high damage weapons, but at the same time we need fast cooldowns. The Piranha definitely fixed this problem, but it will probably get nerfed. Should have been a Vanguard only weapon.

edit: Anyone who thinks Phase Disrupter sucks is crazy.

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 août 2012 - 06:43 .